Converting outsiders' alignment (via magic or otherwise)


Rules Questions


For a variety of reasons, my character wants to convert inevitables to the worship of Asmodeus and (thereby) to a lawful evil alignment. Are there ways within the rules, either magical or otherwise, to compel/convince outsiders to serve a different deity/alignment/goal than they normally do?

Assume I won't be able to spend years talking them into it. I need something quick and rules-legal. Also assume my GM isn't open to 3rd party or homebrew solutions.

And note that atonement doesn't work on outsiders, even if I could convince them to go along.


There was some rules in a DND 3.0 book called savage species. It was for allowing players to play monster characters and offering rules and guidelines for that. It even included rules for players to being transformed into monsters, either quickly or as character levels, or changing from one monster type into another. Changing one's alignment subtype is included.

Many of these rituals required you to spend money and xp. These rituals also required that you find certain kinds of spell casters. For instance, a 7th level cleric with the evil domain could give a creature an evil subtype or replace a good subtype with an evil subtype. There is a high chance that a character's alignment will change to match the new subtype.

None of the rituals are quick or cost free. Even the minor ones require at least 24 hours.

The book does include an entry for using wish to become a monster, but mentions that doing so counts as wishing for greater effect.


This was posted in the Pathfinder rules forum. D&D 3.0 rules won't apply.


I consider pathfinder only to be a lose rule. In the end, its more or less the same game.

But hey, if you are making it clear you don't want what I offered, then I'll leave you be.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Perverting the law on an existential basis?

How very topical of you Qibble.

I haven't seen Anything like that in rules, though some fiction and (I'm told) 3pp products, and published adventures skirt the issue. Perhaps a more encyclopedic mind than mine can be of help, but I rather doubt it will be Canon.


Daw wrote:
Perverting the law on an existential basis?

Well, it is a day with a 'y' in it...

Daw wrote:
I haven't seen Anything like that in rules, though some fiction and (I'm told) 3pp products, and published adventures skirt the issue. Perhaps a more encyclopedic mind than mine can be of help, but I rather doubt it will be Canon.

Yeah, I haven't found anything. But there's a lot of stuff in the rules, so I'm hoping someone out there might know something that could help. It's not vital to my plans, but it will make things easier if the inevitables see the light...

Shadow Lodge

The 'Ritual of Alignment' from savage species (which was actually D&D 3.25, as it seems to incorporate 3.5 rules than never actually made it into the edition) is probably the best you are going to find: Changing the fundamental nature of a creature like that tends to be more of a 'story' than 'mechanical' issue.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

We once dropped a helm of opposite alignment on a glaberzu and he failed his save. That's the only way I know, unfortunately.

Maybe research something similar?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A possible plan wrecker. Would conversions like these be "mind affecting effects" which inevitables are immune to? How would you change an allignment without affecting the mind? Could you alter the soul directly? But then, wouldn't that alteration be an effect that affects the mind? I guess something like this shouldn't be easy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bob, a little ridiculously, points this out.

Nowhere in the description did it limit mind effecting effects to magical effects, thus inevitables are immune to diplomacy. Actually, as I write this, why wouldn't they be immune to diplomacy, changing their mind would be a chaotic act. Thanks, Quibble, another thing rattling around the back of my head.


Magic Chapter, Descriptor heading wrote:

"The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.

Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on."

"Mind-affecting" (as I've always understood it) is a specific term to refer to magical effects (and perhaps a handful of specifically indicated other effects; such as how alchemical acid does "acid" damage).

Just as a creature who is immune to "sonic effects" isn't necessarily deaf, or a creature who is immune to "language-dependent effects" isn't necessarily unable to speak, a creature who is immune to "mind-affecting effects" (in a magic descriptor sense) isn't automatically incapable of having its mind affected by mundane means (like sense perception or Diplomacy).


Daw wrote:
A possible plan wrecker. Would conversions like these be "mind affecting effects" which inevitables are immune to? How would you change an allignment without affecting the mind? Could you alter the soul directly? But then, wouldn't that alteration be an effect that affects the mind? I guess something like this shouldn't be easy.

Interestingly enough, atonement does not have the mind-affecting descriptor. And it's an abjuration.

My guess is, based on a bit more research, that there probably isn't an explicit way to do this via magic or other rules. It is more of an "as needed by the story" kind of change anyway. There are several examples in various Adventure Paths of outsiders who have changed their alignment--and it's usually a sign of something big in the story going on.

That makes it probably outside the scope of the current campaign. But as long as the inevitables stay lawful, my character can keep talking to them. Who knows? Maybe he'll eventually wear them down...

There is one more way, now that I think about it.

Book of the Damned, Diabolic Chapter description wrote:
A creature that is not lawful evil and attempts to read this section of the book must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or have his alignment permanently shift one step toward lawful evil.

By sheer coincidence, my character happens to have a copy of that chapter (which is totally unrelated to his interest in converting inevitables to the worship of Asmodeus and all his hellish minions. Really. Totally unrelated. *eyes dart furtively*)

However, he's not really that willing to let it out of his hands. So if there winds up being a fairly powerful inevitable and circumstances are right, he might loan him the book, just to see if it works, but that seems unlikely.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Converting outsiders' alignment (via magic or otherwise) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.