Advice on first character - Operative with guns blazing?


Advice


Hi everyone,

So... I've never played much Starfinder before, apart from with a pre-gen.

I will be joining a group for a Starfinder AP at level 2, but my system knowledge is really lacking :P

I was planning on playing an Operative (the group has two soldiers and a mechanic so far) and would like to know if someone can give me some pointers on how to build it - idea is a agile, fast paced guy wielding two guns (just think that's cool) at range or at point-blank melee range, if he is engaged (something like... John Wick :D).

Can this be done? Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thank you in advance!

Image

Or Image

Or Image

Image?

Or even :D


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Alright, so to get a few things out of the way about how pistols work out in Starfinder.

1. Pistol damage is, by default, low. The basic attack with a pistol is rapidly outpaced by bigger guns, and nothing throws down as much damage as a melee bruiser.

2. Operatives have got the ability to actually do good damage with a pistol, because of their trick attack feature. When using this, you will be able to do decent damage with pistols, and be quite mobile. Some operative exploits you can choose even support doing this without incurring attacks of opportunity you would normally provoke, and it combines well with the feat Shot On The Run, to never stay put. If you do this, you will only be firing one pistol in a round, but you will likely want to carry a couple, anyway, so you can switch up your damage type, use a gun with a nonlethal setting, etc. for flexibility.

While trick attacking operative damage is good, it will be beat out overall by soldiers and solarians. Which is correct, because that's kinda their whole thing, and an operative is also good at everything that isn't combat. However, you can also get abilities to bake debuffs into your trick attack to expand your options past the default ones.

3. You can make 2 attacks in one round, at a -4 penalty. If you take the multi-weapon fighting feat, making those attacks with separate pistols will reduce the penalty to -3. This will still be less effective than someone making multiple attacks with a big weapon.

4. If you want to use pistols point blank, you will want to either use operative exploits to prevent yourself from provoking AoOs from your target, or pick up the Pistol Whip exploit, which will actually make beating someone with a gun when they get too close a pretty effective tactic. You could also use a pistol bayonet mount, if that sounds more fun to you.

So, overall, if you want effective pistol work, you are in the right place with operative. If you want a highly mobile combatabt, you are also I'm the right place. Using trick attack instead of full attacks is great for not tying yourself down in one place, as you would otherwise end up being tempted to do. But shooting two pistols together, instead of alternating based on your target will make you less effective in combat.

EDIT: At levels 8 and 13, you will gain the ability to attack more than twice, and get a bit more mileage out of dual pistols, and it may sometimes be preferanle, if you have targets with fairly low AC and don't need to apply debuffs to them, especially if an ally has abilities to make hitting them easier, but you will be better off with trick attack in many cases.


Ok, thank you for the feedback Hammerjack:

1. Understood ;)

2. Also understood

3. I get that

4. So what if instead of going with two pistols, I waded in pistol + melee. Would this make more sense? Pistol for when I am at range, and melee weapon for when I am engaged? Is it feasible? What kind of stat spread should I be looking at? Would it make sense to dip Soldier?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Having a pistol in one hand and a melee weapon in the other can work very well. You can use different damage types, move in to provide and/or take advantage of a flanking bonus or moving away to keep your distance, based on the target. As with dual pistols, I would recommend using weapons with different damage types, for flexibility.

As for stat spread, operatives are probably the most Single-Attribute-Dependent class in the game. You definitely want high dexterity, as you use it for initiative, AC, reflex saves, attacks, resolve, DCs of class abilities with a saving throw and a lot of skils. Aside from that, you can really choose what you want your secondary attributes to be. Different operative specializations give you options for skills based on different secondary attributes to be used for your trick attack. Obviously, having some extra constitution will never be a bad idea, either, because in Starfinder, accuracy is high enough compared to AC that you will take hit, and failing fortitude saves for things like disease and poison an be incredibly bad.

I do feel like operatives gain less from a level of soldier than most classes, because some of their abilities are incompatible with heavy armor, and one of their signature abilities is their ability to use weapons that are normally not great effectively. If you want your character to be proficient with every weapon to make them fit your concept, a level of soldier would not make you useless, and you can get some useful things out of it, like the level 1 sharpshooter fighting style ability, to be really good at not worrying about enemies having cover. Generally, though, I think getting the full operative progression is a bit more optimal.


You can do pistol + melee pretty effectively. The pistol whip exploit is likely inherently better, but any operative melee weapon will work.

The stat spread for every operative is, (if you can get it), 18 Dex/14 in primary stat for your specialization (so wis for explorer operatives, or int for hacker operatives), any points you have left in whatever you want.


So, it makes no sense investing in Str at all?

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Albion, The Eye wrote:
So, it makes no sense investing in Str at all?

NOT for an operative. just make sure that if you are doing melee with an operative to only use weapons with the 'operative' quality.

that way your dex bonus counts as a str bonus.


Strength for an operative only affects melee damage (but only very little, overall) and carrying capacity. It does provide access to certain feats, but none of them are ones you'll actually want.

Just to show the math, at 5th level, an operative with a decent operative melee weapon and no strength bonus is looking at doing...

1d4 (base damage) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 3d8 (trick attack) = 18 average damage.

Even if you took your strength to 14, you'd only be looking at 2 extra damage, or about 9% to your DPR, for a total of 20.

Compare that to a ranged operative using a decent small arm for 5th level...

1d6 or 2d4 (base damage) +2 (weapon specialization) + 3d8 (trick attack) = 19 or 20.5 average damage.

The average for a ranged operative using pistol whip is already 19 over the melee weapon even without strength, and if you're a Vesk (which, yes, have a natural Strength bonus), it jumps to 25, but 5 of that is from the increase to weapon spec, only 1 point comes from strength.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It is possible to do unconventional things with an operative that get a decent return in investment for strength. If you do not have a specific plan for why you need it, though, you probably don't.


Guys, thanks for all the information and explanations thus far - I've managed a skeleton of a character! :D

Would you let me know your thoughts?

AX23:

AX23
Male android outlaw operative 2
None Medium humanoid (android)
Init +5; Senses darkvision (60'), low-light vision; Perception +5

_________________________________________________
DEFENSE
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
EAC 15; KAC 16
SP 14 HP 16 RP 5
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +3
, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs
_________________________________________________
OFFENSE
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Speed Walk 30'
Melee knife, survival +5 (1d4 , critical -; Analog, operative)
Ranged arc pistol, static +3 (1d6, critical Arc 2; Stun)

_________________________________________________
STATISTICS
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Str 11, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8,
Base Atk +1; Grp+1
Feats Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Acrobatics, Stealth)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Athletics +6, Bluff +5, Computers +8, Culture +7, Engineering +8, Intimidate +4, Medicine +8, Perception +6, Piloting +10, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +13, Survival +5,
Languages Common
Combat Gear
Other Gear knife, survival, arc pistol, static, second skin, 174.0 gp

_________________________________________________
SPECIAL ABILITIES
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
RACIALTRAITS
Size And Type Androids are medium humanoids with the android subtype
Constructed For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs (whichever effect is worse). They receive a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs. In addition, androids do not breathe or suffer the normal environmental effects of being in a vacuum
Exceptional Vision Androids have low-light vision and darkvision. As a result, they can see in dim light as if it were normal light, and they can see with no light source at all to a range of 60 feet in black and white only. See low-light vision and darkvision on pages 264 and 263
Flat Affect Androids find emotions confusing and keep them bottled up. They take a -2 penalty to sense motive checks, but the dcs of sense motive checks attempted against them increase by 2
Upgrade Slot Androids have a single armor upgrade slot in their bodies. Regardless of whether androids are wearing physical armor, they can use this slot to install any one armor upgrade that could be installed into light armor

THEME BENEFITS
Outlaw Due to the sins of your past or your current unlawful behavior, you are a wanted individual somewhere in the pact worlds. You might not even be guilty and are striving to clear your good name. Or you might fully admit to being a criminal but believe the laws you break are unjust. Whatever the case, boarding a starship headed to the vast might be just the thing you need until the heat dies down-or until you're dragged off to prison
Theme Knowledge You are well connected to shadowy secrets and back-alley deals, and you both know about key players and have handy skills of your own. Reduce the dc of culture checks to recall knowledge about the criminal underworld by 5. Sleight of hand is a class skill for you, though if it is a class skill from the class you take at 1st level, you instead gain a +1 bonus to sleight of hand checks. In addition, you gain an ability adjustment of +1 to dexterity at character creation

CLASS FEATURES:
Operative's Edge Your diverse training as an operative grants you a +1 insight bonus to initiative checks and to skill checks
Specialization Your specialization represents your primary area of expertise. Pick one specialization upon taking your 1st level of the operative class. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. Descriptions of the specializations appear on page 94. Your specialization grants you the skill focus feat (see page 161) in your specialization's associated skills, and you gain a free skill rank in each of those skills at each operative level (this does not allow you to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill)
Ghost You can move from place to place without being noticed.
Associated skills: acrobatics and stealth. When you use stealth to make a trick attack, you gain a +1 bonus to the skill check.
Specialization exploit: cloaking field
Trick Attack You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard. As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a bluff, intimidate, or stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization; see page 94) with a dc equal to 20 + your target's cr. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can't use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack. [trick attack damage: 1d4]
Evasion If you succeed at a reflex save against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no effect. You gain this benefit only when unencumbered and wearing light armor or no armor, and you lose the benefit when you are helpless or otherwise unable to move
Operative Exploit As you gain experience, you learn special tricks called operative exploits. You learn your first operative exploit at 2nd level, and you learn an additional exploit every 2 levels thereafter. If an operative exploit allows a saving throw to resist its effects, the dc is equal to 10 + half your operative level + your dexterity modifier. If it requires an enemy to attempt a skill check, the dc is equal to 10 + 1-1/2 x your operative level + your dexterity modifier. The list of operative exploits appears on page 95. You cannot learn the same exploit more than once unless it specially says otherwise
Uncanny Mobility When you make a trick attack, if you choose the target of your attack before you move, your movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from that target. When you use your standard action to move, you can choose one creature; you don't provoke attacks of opportunity from that creature for this movement

FEATS:
Great Fortitude You are resistant to diseases, poisons, and other maladies You gain a +2 bonus to fortitude saving throws
Skill Focus (acrobatics, Stealth) You are particularly adept at a certain skill You gain a +3 insight bonus to checks involving the chosen skill.
Special: you can take this feat multiple times. Its effects don't stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new skill

----------------------------------

One of my immediate doubts is - why is the Arc Pistol only at +3 to hit?

Also getting a very hard time to get a decent Starfinder bb code output sheet for PCGen... I should have much more gear (backpack, medikit, cable, tool kits, etc), but it is simply not showing...


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The arc pistol should not only be at +3.

The last I looked at PCGEN for Starfinder, it was still pretty buggy. That's why I've been using the pencil and dead tree method.


You should be at +6 (+4 DEX +2 BAB) with either the knife or the pistol.

Also, look these up:

Bayonet Bracket, Light


Personally I prefer the cookiemaker sheet over PC gen. It does about as much automation, but has more of the stuff available in it, and fewer bugs.

The arc pistol should be +5.


The Ragi wrote:
You should be at +5 (+4 DEX +1 BAB) with either the knife or the pistol.

Lemme correct myself.


@Hammerjack: I would do that, but I fear missing some detail. PCGen at least kinda lets me know what it is the Character Sheet is missing...

@pithica42: I had seen that sheet before also, and will take a second look at it. At first glance I thought the fields had to be manually filled, but now I see it has drop down menus which is GREAT. It seems to be missing two important things for me as a beginner (or maybe I overlooked them) - a checklist of what the sheet is missing, and an export function to put up on PbP forums?

@The Ragi: Thanks! So the Bayonet Bracket would allow me to attach the Survival Knife to the Arc Pistol, effectively releasing my off-hand. Is that correc?

------------

In the meantime I fiddled some more with PCGen, and understood the gear had to be 'equipped' before it would show in the Character Sheet. I've done it now. Updated version below (for some reason the Arc-Pistol is still only at +3 to-hit... Maybe it has some sort of characteristic which makes it so? The sniper rifle seems to be fine...):

AX23:

AX23
Male android outlaw operative 2
CG Medium humanoid (android)
Init +5; Senses darkvision (60'), low-light vision; Perception +5

_________________________________________________
DEFENSE
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
EAC 15; KAC 16
SP 14 HP 16 RP 5
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +3
, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs, +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs
_________________________________________________
OFFENSE
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Speed Walk 30'
Melee knife, survival +5 (1d4 , critical -; Analog, operative)
Ranged arc pistol, static +3 (1d6, critical Arc 2; Stun)
Ranged diasporan rifle, tactical +5 (1d8, critical -; Sniper (250 ft.), unwieldy)

_________________________________________________
STATISTICS
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Str 11, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8,
Base Atk +1; Grp+1
Feats Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Acrobatics, Stealth)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Athletics +6, Bluff +5, Computers +8, Culture +7, Engineering +8, Intimidate +4, Medicine +8, Perception +6, Piloting +10, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +13, Survival +5,
Languages Common
Combat Gear serum of healing mk 1,
Other Gear knife, survival, arc pistol, static, clothing (everyday), second skin, backpack (industrial), battery (2), medkit (basic), tool kit (trapsmith's tools), tool kit (engineering kit), tool kit (hacking kit), tool kit (navigator's tools), cable line (titanium alloy/10 ft), diasporan rifle, tactical, 174.0 gp

_________________________________________________
SPECIAL ABILITIES
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
RACIALTRAITS
Size And Type Androids are medium humanoids with the android subtype
Constructed For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both humanoids and constructs (whichever effect is worse). They receive a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs. In addition, androids do not breathe or suffer the normal environmental effects of being in a vacuum
Exceptional Vision Androids have low-light vision and darkvision. As a result, they can see in dim light as if it were normal light, and they can see with no light source at all to a range of 60 feet in black and white only. See low-light vision and darkvision on pages 264 and 263
Flat Affect Androids find emotions confusing and keep them bottled up. They take a -2 penalty to sense motive checks, but the dcs of sense motive checks attempted against them increase by 2
Upgrade Slot Androids have a single armor upgrade slot in their bodies. Regardless of whether androids are wearing physical armor, they can use this slot to install any one armor upgrade that could be installed into light armor

THEME BENEFITS
Outlaw Due to the sins of your past or your current unlawful behavior, you are a wanted individual somewhere in the pact worlds. You might not even be guilty and are striving to clear your good name. Or you might fully admit to being a criminal but believe the laws you break are unjust. Whatever the case, boarding a starship headed to the vast might be just the thing you need until the heat dies down-or until you're dragged off to prison
Theme Knowledge You are well connected to shadowy secrets and back-alley deals, and you both know about key players and have handy skills of your own. Reduce the dc of culture checks to recall knowledge about the criminal underworld by 5. Sleight of hand is a class skill for you, though if it is a class skill from the class you take at 1st level, you instead gain a +1 bonus to sleight of hand checks. In addition, you gain an ability adjustment of +1 to dexterity at character creation

CLASS FEATURES:
Operative's Edge Your diverse training as an operative grants you a +1 insight bonus to initiative checks and to skill checks
Specialization Your specialization represents your primary area of expertise. Pick one specialization upon taking your 1st level of the operative class. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. Descriptions of the specializations appear on page 94. Your specialization grants you the skill focus feat (see page 161) in your specialization's associated skills, and you gain a free skill rank in each of those skills at each operative level (this does not allow you to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill)
Ghost You can move from place to place without being noticed.
Associated skills: acrobatics and stealth. When you use stealth to make a trick attack, you gain a +1 bonus to the skill check.
Specialization exploit: cloaking field
Trick Attack You can trick or startle a foe and then attack when she drops her guard. As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm. Just before making your attack, attempt a bluff, intimidate, or stealth check (or a check associated with your specialization; see page 94) with a dc equal to 20 + your target's cr. If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed. This damage increases to 1d8 at 3rd level, to 3d8 at 5th level, and by an additional 1d8 every 2 levels thereafter. You can't use this ability with a weapon that has the unwieldy special property or that requires a full action to make a single attack. [trick attack damage: 1d4]
Evasion If you succeed at a reflex save against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no effect. You gain this benefit only when unencumbered and wearing light armor or no armor, and you lose the benefit when you are helpless or otherwise unable to move
Operative Exploit As you gain experience, you learn special tricks called operative exploits. You learn your first operative exploit at 2nd level, and you learn an additional exploit every 2 levels thereafter. If an operative exploit allows a saving throw to resist its effects, the dc is equal to 10 + half your operative level + your dexterity modifier. If it requires an enemy to attempt a skill check, the dc is equal to 10 + 1-1/2 x your operative level + your dexterity modifier. The list of operative exploits appears on page 95. You cannot learn the same exploit more than once unless it specially says otherwise
Uncanny Mobility When you make a trick attack, if you choose the target of your attack before you move, your movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from that target. When you use your standard action to move, you can choose one creature; you don't provoke attacks of opportunity from that creature for this movement

FEATS:
Great Fortitude You are resistant to diseases, poisons, and other maladies You gain a +2 bonus to fortitude saving throws
Skill Focus (acrobatics, Stealth) You are particularly adept at a certain skill You gain a +3 insight bonus to checks involving the chosen skill.
Special: you can take this feat multiple times. Its effects don't stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new skill

--------------------------

Any thoughts on how the character is built so far, at level 2?


Albion, The Eye wrote:

@pithica42: I had seen that sheet before also, and will take a second look at it. At first glance I thought the fields had to be manually filled, but now I see it has drop down menus which is GREAT. It seems to be missing two important things for me as a beginner (or maybe I overlooked them) - a checklist of what the sheet is missing, and an export function to put up on PbP forums?

The last update I have (which is the one I linked) is from October. It has (theoretically) everything from every book up to then.

That being said, I've noticed a few things that were in earlier versions of the sheet that got lost at some point (like Clear Spindle Aeon stones and some of the SFS items), and a few things that don't do the math right (like Soulfire fusions). Still it's free, and more complete than any of the other free options I know about. It also has the advantage of being easy enough to modify yourself assuming you know how google sheets work (which is what I do when I notice a problem).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Regarding the pistol bayonet, yes it would free up your off-hand, but there is one catch to keep in mind. If the weapon you are attaching deals slashing or bludgeoning damage, it will suffer a -2 penalty to hit when attached to your pistol.


@pithica42: I guess you are right - I will take a closer look at the spreadsheet itself ;)

@Hammerjack: Understood. I think for now I will go weapon + Survival Knife, and ponder some more about the bayonet bracket. Or I can just have the bracket, and decide later on.

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