How exactly does work an Efficient Quiver?


Rules Questions


Efficient Quiver seems an interesting item, however I'm afraid I need explanations. I searched both Google and this board search request to no avail.

Quote:

Efficient Quiver

Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Slot —; Price 1,800 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible.

The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape As a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 900 gp

The text looks pretty forward, but how exactly does it work?

Do I need to fill all three compartments for the Efficient Quiver to start producing items? Or is it on a compartment basis?

Either way, at some point I'll have the Efficient Quiver working. If I've filled the 60-arrows compartment with arrows I can indefinitely pull arrows from it. Is it still true if I fill the very same compartment with +3 flaming arrows? Does an Efficient Quiver [u]create[/u] ammunitions as needed? Making a really cheap way to produce goods to trade?

Now I'd like to store 30 arrows and 30 masterwork arrows in the 60-arrows compartment. That's for sure 60 objects. Does an Efficient Quiver allow me to make one each of 60 different arrows and never be in need?

Another intriguing question. Let's say I have put 60 arrows in the 60-arrows compartment of an Efficient Quiver. Or maybe its last owner did. However for some reasons I'd like to put something else. Maybe 60 bolts would be better? How can I proceed? Is it possible to empty a compartement?

Thank you for your reading,
Y.


Alright, so let's tackle the issue that is "the funny way English works".

The efficient quiver doesn't create items, "produce" in these sense means to "show or provide (something) for consideration, inspection, or use."

The efficient quiver doesn't require you to completely fill any or all pockets to be used, but you can only retrieve items you have placed into it.

It's basically a magical backpack/bag of holding for arrows and bows (or stuff of similar shape/size) which allows you to rapidly retrieve them without having to look through the contents of the bag.


As an example of using the the word produce this way, please take a look at the song "Whiskey in the Jar".

Quote:
As I was goin' over The Cork and Kerry Mountains I saw Captain Farrell And his money, he was countin' I first produced my pistol And then produced my rapier I said, "Stand and deliver or the devil he may take ya"


Claxon,

Many thanks for your answer. I really like this item better now you've pointed how I misinterpreted it.

Y.


Yeah, it's a great item. I've never made an archer that didn't pick one up. It's super handy for storage and retrieval for a very small cost.

I used it to store different types of arrow and retrieve whichever was best for the situation, silver or adamantine or whatever. Refilling it between combats.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Practically speaking, what does this item accomplish aside from weight saving?

Seems like I could just write "arrows (60)" on my character sheet and save myself 1,800gp.


Not just 60 arrows, but 18 javelins and 6 staves/spears/bows. So you are reducing upwards of 81 lbs to 2, and not having all your long stuff get in the way of normal movement.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Practically speaking, what does this item accomplish aside from weight saving?

Seems like I could just write "arrows (60)" on my character sheet and save myself 1,800gp.

A normal quiver stores up to 20 arrows. A case stores up to 10 bolts. It is possible to wear more than 1 quiver, but more than 2 begins to look ridiculous. Leg quivers are smaller than back quivers. If you are going to wear a backpack, it can only be imagined that you're using 2 quivers and even that is stretching credibility since you shouldn't get so use to using two different hands to draw arrows as a free action, but most GMs will let this slide.

At a certain point the GM should require you to store any additional arrows in a container where you need to spend a standard action to retrieve arrows. Something like a handy haversack cuts this down to a move action, but you aren't going to want to spend an entire combat taking single arrows from the haversack each round, right?

An efficient quiver lets you triple the amount of arrows you'd normally be able to fit into a quiver, and it allows you to pull special arrows out as a free action. While that isn't discussed mixing normal and special arrows in a quiver should leave some confusion about what you are shooting.

And the efficient quiver lets you store more bows, spears, and other long narrow objects. Not everyone is going to have a use for the larger pockets, but its a nice bonus.


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One thing PF doesn't seem to have is restrictions on scabbarding and stowing equipment besides the encumbrance rules, which is a bit weird. I mean, there's no rule against having a bow in some sort of case from which it can be drawn, sixty arrows in multiple quivers, multiple throwing weapons, a two-handed sword, a spear, and a selection of metamagic rods all within easy drawing distance. Yet, that is ludicrous from a practicality standpoint. Some of those things have no scabbarding options, and even if they all did there's no way to hang that much crap on a humanoid frame while maintaining drawing functionality and personal movement.

And, maybe you don't care, and maybe your GM doesn't care. Fair enough! In which case the EQ is basically weight-saving and an entry-level magical smuggling device, and yes probably not worth it unless you're really struggling for weight.

But I care about practicality, as a personal quirk. So if I stick most of that crap in an efficient quiver, then I can get my loadout down to something sensible, which I can then feel good about and also potentially draw, or model on a miniature.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So it removes penalties that don't exist in the rules as written. Got it.

Think I'll save my dough. Or better yet, I'll look for a GM that doesn't impose quite so many non-existent rules.


It definitely allows you to store more arrows than a normal quiver could, and allows you to retrieve a specific arrow without having to look for it.

Which can be helpful if you start carrying many different types of arrows in your quiver.

And it also has the same weight regardless of how much you put in. Which is good for archers with low strength scores.

It's kind of a combination bag of holding/handy haversack for archery stuff.


Ravingdork wrote:

So it removes penalties that don't exist in the rules as written. Got it.

Think I'll save my dough. Or better yet, I'll look for a GM that doesn't impose quite so many non-existent rules.

Huh. I can't find a rule that gives slot requirements on non-magical items like quivers. Looks like you're right that you can wear as many as you want.

I guess this also means that I can wear non-magical Adamantite Banded Mail or Scale Mail under my magical Full Plate to get the bonuses of both. I can wear my snowshoes, stiletto boots, false footprint shoes, and Boots of Striding and Springing at the same time, too.


I was going to say, drawing anything from it as a move action, or part of a move action is reason enough for me. Add Quick Draw and it's prety much what you want for a Thrown character.

Sadly my two thrown characters can't really use it. One uses Improvised which it'd be a stretch to ask for light improvised thrown weapons that were the size and shape of arrows. The other uses daggers and a Blinkback Belt because they generally want to keep a hand free, and daggers are decidedly not arrow or javelin shaped. 6 available spears and 18 javelins would be perfect for a thrown spear weapon group fighter.

Bigger advantage, if you can get your hands on multiple bows. You have a slot for up to 6 bows, which can be useful for anything from a decent melee weapon in the form of a spear or staff (not to mention staves and rods for a caster could be held in it), to a different bow with perhaps a more niche enchantment for dealing with specific enemies. A Bane bow perhaps, or Ghost Touch? (Those might be better on an arrow, but I can't find anywhere in magic weapons that say they can't go on a bow itself.)

Lots of potential utility and options.


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Ravingdork wrote:

So it removes penalties that don't exist in the rules as written. Got it.

Think I'll save my dough. Or better yet, I'll look for a GM that doesn't impose quite so many non-existent rules.

The rules as written mention a quiver comes with every bundle of arrows you purchase, and a case comes with every bundle of bolts you buy. Strangely it doesn't explain why or what its for. Much like it doesn't explain what food is for, or that you need to eat meals, or drink, or wear foot gear. A lot of minor details are mentioned here and there but never given a proper explanation.

Maybe you don't own a backpack, or a bag, or any kind of container because nothing says you have to have them to carry stuff in? Oh, but you own several quivers because the rules say that every bundle of 20 arrows comes with one. But you're carrying 10,000gp in loose change, right?

If you want to claim that none of them matter because there is no RAW consequence for not using them, be my guest. I hope you aren't surprised when you get berated by both players, GMs and other peers for the lack of immersion to your character.

Maybe you think your character doesn't excrete because there are no rules for it? This is a role playing game centered around heroic conflict. Lots of details just get glossed over.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:

So it removes penalties that don't exist in the rules as written. Got it.

Think I'll save my dough. Or better yet, I'll look for a GM that doesn't impose quite so many non-existent rules.

Except that using multiple quivers is a move equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. RAW, this is retrieve a stowed item. As would be selecting a particular type of arrow from a mixed quiver

So yeah if you're only using one type of arrow a normal quiver is fine. Which works great until you encounter DR monsters.


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Jared Walter 356 wrote:
Except that using multiple quivers is a move equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. RAW, this is retrieve a stowed item. As would be selecting a particular type of arrow from a mixed quiver

I don't believe either of those are actually RAW. Ammunition is usually a free action and I haven't found a statement that multiple quivers or types changes that. Can you point to anything?

Grand Lodge

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Jared Walter 356 wrote:
Except that using multiple quivers is a move equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. RAW, this is retrieve a stowed item. As would be selecting a particular type of arrow from a mixed quiver
I don't believe either of those are actually RAW. Ammunition is usually a free action and I haven't found a statement that multiple quivers or types changes that. Can you point to anything?

Or you could should something in the rules that states a second quiver isn't a stowed item.

Grand Lodge

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
I don't believe either of those are actually RAW. Ammunition is usually a free action and I haven't found a statement that multiple quivers or types changes that. Can you point to anything?

And actually nocking an arrow isn't a free action, it is considered not an action as part of an attack.

CR 182.

Finding an arrow isn't listed there as a not action, only nocking an arrow.


Arrows are ammunition that come in a leather quiver. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. There's no requirement that arrows must reside in a quiver to be drawn as a free action. However, this is a RAW form of silliness akin to atl-atl/javelin abuse (as follows).

A javelin is drawn as a move-equivilent action since it is a ranged weapon and not ammunition. An atl-atl dart can be drawn as a free action and loaded as a move-equivilent action. Since an atl-atl dart can be thrown like a javelin, it can be drawn for use with an atl-atl as a free action, but thrown instead. This bypasses a javelin thrower's need for Quick Draw.

Grand Lodge

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Arrows are ammunition that come in a leather quiver. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. There's no requirement that arrows must reside in a quiver to be drawn as a free action. However, this is a RAW form of silliness akin to atl-atl/javelin abuse (as follows).

A javelin is drawn as a move-equivilent action since it is a ranged weapon and not ammunition. An atl-atl dart can be drawn as a free action and loaded as a move-equivilent action. Since an atl-atl dart can be thrown like a javelin, it can be drawn for use with an atl-atl as a free action, but thrown instead. This bypasses a javelin thrower's need for Quick Draw.

This part of that same entry could be used to justify that it's a move action if not readily accessible:

If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.


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Jared Walter 356 wrote:


This part of that same entry could be used to justify that it's a move action if not readily accessible:

If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

I'm not saying that you can't make up rules that do reasonable things like you've suggested.

I'm saying that RAW is silly.

Grand Lodge

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

I'm not saying that you can't make up rules that do reasonable things like you've suggested.

I'm saying that RAW is silly.

I agree RAW seem silly here. They are also contradictory in this case.

RAW#1) nocking an arrow is a non-action as part of an attack.
RAW#2) drawing ammunition is a free action.
RAW#3) retrieving a stowed (or not easily accessible item) is a move action.

All three interpretations are based in RAW. All three could be applied to this situation. Depending on how the GM interprets two questions:
a) Does the term drawing ammunition include sorting through multiple types or does that become selecting ammunition?
b) does having several different types of quivers make them not easily accessible?

You're interpreting A as yes, and B as no.
I am interpreting A as no, and B as yes.

There are multiple valid interpretations here, each supported by RAW. This doesn't mean either of us is making up rules. It really just means we are applying different weights to different conflicting parts of the rules.


I think the problem with saying these are two "valid interpretations... supported by RAW" is that the two questions you've asked (although reasonable from a fiction sense) are questions that RAW does not require you to ask. If it does, where is the page that says how many kinds of arrows you can have in a single quiver before it counts as inaccessible, or how many quivers before same?

Ravingdork and I obviously have different priorities and play differently, but as far as RAW goes I totally concur with this earlier assessment:

Ravingdork wrote:
So it removes penalties that don't exist in the rules as written.

So I'm buying an EQ, because I want somewhere to put eight kinds of arrows and a spear. But I accept that it's basically an RP tax.

Grand Lodge

Well happy adventuring then.

I think at this point we agree to disagree.
I think your position is supported RAW, but I also think my position is supported RAW.
Depending on how you define (or ignore) undefined terms in the game like "stowed item", "not easily accessible", and the feel and flavor you want in your game.


Weight is actually a big deal for a lot of characters, especially dex-based characters. It also protects your stuff as per nondimensional or extradimensional spaces.

Jared Walter 356 wrote:

Except that using multiple quivers is a move equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. RAW, this is retrieve a stowed item. As would be selecting a particular type of arrow from a mixed quiver

So yeah if you're only using one type of arrow a normal quiver is fine. Which works great until you encounter DR monsters.

My archers put a small alteration on their arrows' fletching and put a divider in their quivers. Reach for the arrow, that's the one, lock and load from that spot. At worst a DM could say you need to quickly peek but that's not an action anyway.

Besides, it's not like strapping a quiver on your back and using it from there was terribly common anyway (except in media). Hip holsters, nearby containers dropped or straight out of the ground you stabbed it in for bonus infections were more the way.

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