2018 Character Survey, Full Arcane Casting Classes and Under-rated Witches.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


The 2018 Character Survey contains a lot that is of interest to people seriously interested in Pathfinder, Link here .

What I want to discuss here is the relative popularity of the full arcane casting classes. The number of characters of each class shown by the survey are-

Arcanist 147
Sorcerer 549
Witch- 249
Wizard- 563

Most class tiers rate wizard as tier 1, with sorcerers a bit below and witches weaker still. I would think arcanists are around on a par with wizards. This is something I don't dispute, but these tier systems refer to the power level of the classes at level 20 or just short.

The same survey finds that 50% of character reach a maximum level in one class of 6, 8 levels overall, 20% of character reach a maximum level in one class of 12, 14 levels overall and only 10% of character reach a maximum level in one class of 15, 17 levels overall.

This reflects my own experience, it is rare to get a character to level 14. And in the PFS as I understand it characters max out at level 11 nearly always.

I believe that at the levels most characters reach witches are the most powerful. They get spells at the same rate as a wizard and are prepared casters. And the class features, which is mostly hexes for the witch, just out classes [pun unintentional, honest!] those of the other arcane casters.

A witch starts with one hex and gains one at each even numbered level [with an additional major hex at lvl 10 and grand hex at lvl 18, but I am not talking so much about these higher levels]. This means you have 3 hexes by level 4, more if you take the extra hex feat. Ie you get a lot of them.

Hexes do a variety of things. They have some limitations, those that target an individual can only affect that individual once a day. You can improve this to 2/day with the accursed hex feat. Hexes have short ranges, typically 30', and few if any affect more than one creature.

The fact that spells can be cast once per day per slot, while hexes are once per day per opponent means that witches just last much longer.

What I do is select spells that do what my hexes can't. I have a level 4 witch in a PbP game her that has memorised-
2nd Glitterdust x2 Invisibility x1
1st—burning hands (3, DC 16) x2, mage armor x2

Hexes can't affect groups, glitterdust and burning hands can. The other spells also supplement my hexes, slumber, fortune, misfortune and cackle.

I am interested in what others have to say about this.


I have enjoyed playing a witch also. I see a significant weakness in the short range of hexes. Played smart, it is not a major weakness, but you must prepare for it.

While hexes are great, they do limit what you can do in a round. As most offensive hexes are single target, you need to be careful to use them well. I think Evil Eye is one of the best, as it can significantly reduce saving throws of the enemy, allowing others to land spells.

What I would love to see would be a way to get a hex off in less than a standard, even if only a few times a day. Another thing I would love would be a way to extend the hex range. Thirty fee is too exposed. Lastly, I would love to see a way to get a hag by the Leadership feat before 18th level.

With a good party that supports you, a witch can really work well.

/cevah


Joynt Jezebel wrote:
I believe that at the levels most characters reach witches are the most powerful. They get spells at the same rate as a wizard and are prepared casters. And the class features, which is mostly hexes for the witch, just out classes [pun unintentional, honest!] those of the other arcane casters.

It's a matter of personal preference. If you value the Hex class feature highly (which it sounds like you do) then the Witch is the right class for you. However, it comes at the cost of fewer spell slots and a more restrictive spell list. For a lot of players, the entire attraction of playing a spellcaster is the spellcasting and they're willing to give up on the raw spammability of hexes to get that.

While Wizard does sort of rule the roost when it comes to the arcane caster club, they're all top-notch classes in their own right.


Cevah wrote:

I have enjoyed playing a witch also. I see a significant weakness in the short range of hexes. Played smart, it is not a major weakness, but you must prepare for it.

While hexes are great, they do limit what you can do in a round. As most offensive hexes are single target, you need to be careful to use them well. I think Evil Eye is one of the best, as it can significantly reduce saving throws of the enemy, allowing others to land spells.

What I would love to see would be a way to get a hex off in less than a standard, even if only a few times a day. Another thing I would love would be a way to extend the hex range. Thirty fee is too exposed. Lastly, I would love to see a way to get a hag by the Leadership feat before 18th level.

With a good party that supports you, a witch can really work well.

/cevah

With regards to hex range, ratfolk have a racial favored class bonus, and their stats are set up to make effective witches. The hag and quickened hexes are more of a challenge... Although I favor using a simulacrum scroll to generate a "hag" (discuss the effect with your GM).


I thinknwitches are very powerful, and I don't even think they're underrated. Most people know how powerful they are. Personally I think wizards are overrated (watch how people react to that).

Cevah wrote:
What I would love to see would be a way to get a hex off in less than a standard, even if only a few times a day. Another thing I would love would be a way to extend the hex range. Thirty fee is too exposed. Lastly, I would love to see a way to get a hag by the Leadership feat before 18th level.

@Cevah AMPLIFIED HEX. (I just found this, it looks like it's paizo, but if there's something I'm missing sorry)


I feel like this late in a game's lifespan, what might be hurting the witch a bit is the lack of novelty. Absolutely the witch is powerful, but a lot of a strong witch's hex game is similar to other witches (cackle, evil eye, misfortune sees a lot of play for example) might lead to people who have already played that character pick something different instead.

So if I'm going to play a full arcane caster, I feel like there's a perception that there's more variety in viable builds for the other 3 classes than there is for the witch; certainly the witch's spell list is more limited than the others.


pad300 wrote:
With regards to hex range, ratfolk have a racial favored class bonus, and their stats are set up to make effective witches. The hag and quickened hexes are more of a challenge... Although I favor using a simulacrum scroll to generate a "hag" (discuss the effect with your GM).

Here is the racial ability mentioned, and good it is too. It is enough to have me reconsidering the race of my witches. There is something cool about the ratfolk witch.

Ratfolk Add +5 feet to the range of one hex with a range other than “touch.”


Dasrak wrote:

1 It's a matter of personal preference.

2 If you value the Hex class feature highly (which it sounds like you do) then the Witch is the right class for you.

3 However, it comes at the cost of fewer spell slots and a more restrictive spell list.

4 For a lot of players, the entire attraction of playing a spellcaster is the spellcasting and they're willing to give up on the raw spammability of hexes to get that.

5 While Wizard does sort of rule the roost when it comes to the arcane caster club, they're all top-notch classes in their own right.

1 Yes and no. Things like a tier list aspire to objectively measure the power of classes against each other.

If you do an arcane caster only tier list at levels 1 to 6 witches are no 1 imho. You might get another arcane caster class up to par by level 6 by very good and specific optimalisation, but generically witches are more powerful.

2 Oh yes. I have played in a lot of small groups, 2 or 3 PCs. In those circumstances the fact your hexes don't run out is just golden.
Also you may lack a divine caster, where having CLW, and being able to automatically use a wand of CLW is important.

3 The witches spells per level table is identical to the Wizards.

4 And that is an excellent reason to play a wizard.

5 Maybe arcanists and exploiter wizards have their nose in front of the wizard.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like this late in a game's lifespan, what might be hurting the witch a bit is the lack of novelty. Absolutely the witch is powerful, but a lot of a strong witch's hex game is similar to other witches (cackle, evil eye, misfortune sees a lot of play for example) might lead to people who have already played that character pick something different instead.

So if I'm going to play a full arcane caster, I feel like there's a perception that there's more variety in viable builds for the other 3 classes than there is for the witch; certainly the witch's spell list is more limited than the others.

I think you are right about lack of novelty. Once you have played a witch that takes out enemies with hexes for a while you likely want the next character to do something entirely different.

And I think the "perception" is closer to a fact.

The patrons and a lot of the archetypes change the witch somewhat but the basic combat strategy is the same. Winter Witch is an exception.

Maybe if 2nd ed Pathfinder, which [sorry, tried to avoid it] I know almost nothing features witches they can be made more varied.


I always thought the sorcerer was rated below the witch? While sorcerers might have access to a "better" spell list, they can't easily switch spells for different situations and their bloodline power tend to fit a narrow theme.

MrCharisma wrote:
I thinknwitches are very powerful, and I don't even think they're underrated. Most people know how powerful they are. Personally I think wizards are overrated (watch how people react to that).

Given that there was a thread on here stated the other day about how terrible the witch spell list is, there are definitely those who underrate the witch. I agree that the power of the wizard gets overstated. I suspect this is caused people frequently imagining perfect case scenarios where wizard's always have every spell available all the time, with unlimited resources for infinite castings of Wish.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like this late in a game's lifespan, what might be hurting the witch a bit is the lack of novelty. Absolutely the witch is powerful, but a lot of a strong witch's hex game is similar to other witches (cackle, evil eye, misfortune sees a lot of play for example) might lead to people who have already played that character pick something different instead.

So if I'm going to play a full arcane caster, I feel like there's a perception that there's more variety in viable builds for the other 3 classes than there is for the witch; certainly the witch's spell list is more limited than the others.

I (slightly) disagree that to be a strong witch you always have to have the same hex selection. I think there are a wider variety of viable builds than people believe there to be; matters are not helped by most witch guides being outdated. Also a build can be perfectly viable without necessarily being the most powerful.


I think several people are underestimating Wizards. Every other level Wizards are clearly superior to other arcane casters that progress slower. That is true till you reach 18th level. And most campaigns don't reach 18th level.

Also wizards are able to expand their spell list the easiest of all arcane casters. Witches need a GM that is willing to populate his game with friendly witches to make them viable, or they need scrolls. Wizards (and Arcanists) gain spells through scrolls, enemy spell books, and buying from widely available casters. Every town in Galorian has a wizard you can buy spells from.

Also wizards have the most generally useful spell list. While there are plenty of great spells they can't cast, the sheer number of top tier spells accessible to a wizard can't be denied.

And lets not forget to mention the thing everyone overlooks when talking about wizards. They get more feats than other arcane casters. While the Wizard isn't as front loaded as other arcane casters, gaining an extra feat every 5 levels is still big.

And there is an even more elusive consideration. Encounters are usually created with the growth of wizard/cleric spell progression in mind. Being one of those classes that get spells 1 level later puts a noticeable strain on encounters as you lack spell power that encounters seem to assume you have access to.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:
1 Yes and no. Things like a tier list aspire to objectively measure the power of classes against each other.

In terms of usage it definitely is a measure of personal preference.

In terms of tier lists, the Witch is generally put in tier 1 alongside the Wizard and Arcanist, while the Sorcerer is put into tier 2. This can vary depending on who you ask; there are those who rate the Witch tier 2 due to its inferior spell list, and those who rate the Sorcerer tier 1 because of how many ways it has to expand its spells known these days. By and large it's an academic discussion and all these classes are held in very high regard.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:
3 The witches spells per level table is identical to the Wizards.

Wizards also get specialist spell slots, and the default presumption is that Wizards specialize. This is particularly important at your highest spell level, where it can take you from 2 to 3 slots (a 50% expansion) which really helps alleviate preparation and rationing.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:
5 Maybe arcanists and exploiter wizards have their nose in front of the wizard.

Only if you compare them to Universalist Wizards. The Exploiter certainly was the death knell to Universalists, but the more conventional specialist Wizard still has more spells per day than Exploiters or Arcanists. Exploiter is still a great archetype (and, as mentioned, basically obsoleted Universalist Wizard) and the Arcanist is still a great class; top notch material all around.


Decimus Drake wrote:
I (slightly) disagree that to be a strong witch you always have to have the same hex selection. I think there are a wider variety of viable builds than people believe there to be; matters are not helped by most witch guides being outdated. Also a build can be perfectly viable without necessarily being the most powerful.

Good points. And yes, the guides are out dated.

One thing I have mentioned before, witches are really good in smaller than usual groups. Take the healing hex and you are the party's healer. A second rate one w/o a wand of CLW but needs must.

I would still have preferred that archetypes and patrons did more to encourage spinning the class in a variety of directions... in a way that is acceptable to a player who wants a powerful character.

Oracles are what this should be like. Taking different mysteries and archetypes and you can spin the class in wholly different directions. Some of the better oracle mysteries allow you to do things few other characters can, or even none in rare circumstances.

Dasrak- Doh! I forgot all about Wizards specialist spell slots.

The closest I got to playing a Pathfinder Wizard was looking after one after a player dropped out for a while.

Meirill- I have not had a problem purchasing scrolls for my witches. Does cost though. I have noticed that when arcane spells are found around 2/3 of them are not on my spell list.

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