Can Full Pouch duplicate Items Combined by Hybridization Funnel?


Rules Questions


The title of the thread asks the question. Basically, can the Spell "Full Pouch" duplicate the items that are created/combined with the item "Hybridization Funnel".

For example - After taking the 10 minutes required to mix an Alchemist's Fire with Acid Flask would deal 1d6 Fire Damage and 1d6 Acid Damage, with 1 Fire and 1 Acid splash Damage.

This combined item - the Alchemist's Fire Acid Flask - could it then be duplicated by the effects of Full Pouch?


It depends on how close to RAW you go as a GM.

NO(very close to RAW) - as the "new" alchemical item isn't listed in any resource. The hybridization has made it unique and the duplicate is randomly one of the originals with a 24 hr effectiveness.
Secondly, Full Pouch does not allow the more expensive items and use of the hybridization funnel increased the price of the item and moved it into the forbidden range of the spell effect as new price is 1.5*A+B where A is the more expensive item.

YES(somewhat RAW) - as I'm just reading the spells and I don't think 1.5*(most expensive item) added to the first affects game balance (see Adding New Abilities under Magic Item Creation) and the duplicated item has the same 24hr restriction on effectiveness as the original.

I'd point out the obvious error in Full Pouch but it's a moot point for this thread.


Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
NO(very close to RAW) - as the "new" alchemical item isn't listed in any resource. The hybridization has made it unique and the duplicate is randomly one of the originals with a 24 hr effectiveness.

Just curious, but how did you come to this conclusion for RAW? If the interpretation for this case is that the item isn't listed in any resource, wouldn't that mean the spell fails completely? I'm okay with the spell falling, but I don't see anything that would imply the second half of this statement.

Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
I'd point out the obvious error in Full Pouch but it's a moot point for this thread.

What error? :o


edited the original post.
If you've played in PFS then you know custom items aren't allowed. By custom they mean not specifically in a printed resource, allowances are made for numerical bonuses. That feeds right into the NO(very close to RAW) decision.
The spell should fail, but I'm a nice guy and don't want you to waste a spell and get nothing, so one is chosen and that is duplicated with the restrictions of the original. Game balance works both ways.

Technically your PC wouldn't know the result until he tried it and then identified the resulting item (if any). It's best to consult with your GM before you try this spontaneously at a game as the result may not be what you expect.


The edited post is even more confusing now... Considering I have no clue what the formula you posted is for...

That being said, PFS has different GMs at each game you play. This is the reason why uniform and written rules need to be in place for Society games - so that there is as little "GM Description" between each game.

Though, based on what you have pointed out RAW (without using the confusing formula you posted... and without adjusting for being nice), it seems the spell would fail when cast on a Hybridization item.

No worries, I'll just remove the Spell from my Spellbook with retraining rules. I already have to dump about 400gp worth of pretty much ruined Alchemical Items due to a change to the spell that has not yet been posted on the HTML version of the site yet. lol


ummm... it would be more effective and cost efficient to just leave the now scribed spell in your spell book and just not memorize it. Retraining for a spell is going to cost more than just ripping the spell out of your book, erasing it with Erase, or just plain ignoring it. You can always let others copy it for a small fee in a home game.
If your character is an Alchemist it's much the same. The Funnel is useful in many ways just the spell isn't what you want so it's 40gp{+20gp for NPC access} down the tubes but you still have the "formula". Hopefully you are not scribing from purchased scrolls! Read the Core Rulebook.

I don't know anything about ruined alchemical items or html updates... lol...

PFS runs on documentation; The Guide, Additional Resources, and Campaign Clarifications. Those do get updated on occasion. "GM Description", hmmm... I think you mean "table variation" or "Downtime".
Table variation is about the gray area of the rules under GM control. The gray area changes with your GM and that's normal. It just means you should stick to well understood elements of the game and tricky stuff may not work as you expect at different tables. That's the risk you take with things that rely on significant interpretation. There will always be table variation and that is a good thing.
Downtime is an unspecified period of time between games. Expenditures between games have to be approved at your next game by the GM.

For me the formula was quite clear and added weight to the game balance argument which many home game GMs consider. This is a public post for you and others to read. Remember to multiply before addition, A and B are the price of the two alchemical items using algebraic symbols.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The best reply is: Ask your GM.

I feel that the Hybridized item isn't an alchemical item, but other GM can feel differently.


Whisperer in Darkness wrote:

Secondly, Full Pouch does not allow the more expensive items and use of the hybridization funnel increased the price of the item and moved it into the forbidden range of the spell effect as new price is 1.5*A+B where A is the more expensive item.

Full pouch has no price cap, it allows the duplication of any consumable alchemical item.

As for the original question, if the resulting substance is considered a consumable alchemical item it can be duplicated (note that it would be duplicated with the same remaining lifespan). Hybridization funnel does not clarify whether the resultant mixture is one.


Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
For me the formula was quite clear and added weight to the game balance argument which many home game GMs consider. This is a public post for you and others to read. Remember to multiply before addition, A and B are the price of the two alchemical items using algebraic symbols.
willuwontu wrote:
Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
Secondly, Full Pouch does not allow the more expensive items and use of the hybridization funnel increased the price of the item and moved it into the forbidden range of the spell effect as new price is 1.5*A+B where A is the more expensive item.
Full pouch has no price cap, it allows the duplication of any consumable alchemical item.

I think the reason pointed out by Willuwontu explains my confusion for the formula more than anything else. It isn't that the formula doesn't make sense, it is just that I don't see why the formula was included.

(Secretly wishing that Paizo would release a reasonable Spell or Item that helped fix the DC problem for Alchemical Items that doesn't get changed later down the line.)


Here's where I would split the hair: does using the hybridization funnel make the finished item magical? Not 'does it have an aura' from the residual magic used to make it (such as an instantaneous spell), but does it actually make a temporary magical item?

> Yes
It's a magical item now, and the spell is limited to alchemical items. It likely can't mimic magical items. Precedent has been set with other similar spells and its wording about not even wanting to imitate potions and the like.

> No
It's just an alchemical item. Sure. Use it.

My balance opinion is that a person using it to combine two thrown splash weapons into even something nuts is still buying an item and welding together two alchemical items (destroying them in the process effectively) to use 2nd level spell slots... to duplicate effects only comparable to 2nd level spells at best.

Maybe they entangle something and deal 3d6 combined fire and acid damage? Perhaps they burst a special creature for 4d6? It's possible that in extremely specialized circumstances they can do something like 6d6 damage to a target by preparing ahead of time?
That seems reasonable.

It's not like their using it to throw out free homunculi.

Sovereign Court

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
I already have to dump about 400gp worth of pretty much ruined Alchemical Items due to a change to the spell that has not yet been posted on the HTML version of the site yet. lol

What change? I can't find any FAQ, Campaign Clarifications, Additional Resources change to the spell.


Firebug wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
I already have to dump about 400gp worth of pretty much ruined Alchemical Items due to a change to the spell that has not yet been posted on the HTML version of the site yet. lol
What change? I can't find any FAQ, Campaign Clarifications, Additional Resources change to the spell.

Linky!

Stephen Wight wrote:

Hi, Chris,

Someone just pointed out to me that Arcane Anthology is missing from the HTML version of the Campaign Clarifications. Full Pouch gets a lot stronger without the clarification text!

Apparently, if what I am told is to be correct, the Full Pouch spell uses the lower of the two Save DCs rather than the Higher of the two Save DCs. So all of my 10 DC and lower Alchemical items that I commonly used as a combo for the spell stopped being effective. lol

Although, I understand the reasoning for it having been denied. It makes sense that a spell like this might have an Error 402 when attempting to use it on a modified Alchemical item.

Sovereign Court

Found it, its in the downloadable version of the campaign clarifications.

Arcane Anthology wrote:
Page 20—Replace the final sentence of the full pouch spell with, “Saves against the new alchemical item’s effects use the original items save DC or the save DC of the spell, whichever is lower.” Items created with full pouch last until the next time you refresh your daily spell slots or spells per day.

Using the lower of the 2 DCs makes sense, as the previous sentence says it loses quality.

However, I see nothing that would prevent Hybrid items from failing to function with Full Pouch. The only way I can see the mixture not being a valid target is that the Hybridization Funnel calls it a mixture not an Alchemical item. However, the argument against that would be 'why does the funnel have to explicitly call out that the mixture can't be combined with another mixture, when it can only combine Alchemical items in the first place.'

Which low DC alchemicals have you been Hybrid-ing? I mostly just use it for Acid/Alkali because they are the cheapest and uncommonly resisted.


I think by RAW the flask containing the hybridized alchemical items contains 2 alchemical items. So when you cast Full Pouch on it, you get to copy one of them. Not both. If you somehow cast Full Pouch twice I think you'd get 2 separate flasks, not a hybradized version of the 2 alchemical splash weapons.

Also if the hybridized splash weapon involved holy water, you wouldn't be able to choose that because it isn't alchemical.


I've posted a Campaign Clarification request so we'll see if they want to take it up otherwise it remains in the GM's gray area.
The original clarification caught the error in the published text that I mentioned above.


Firebug wrote:
Which low DC alchemicals have you been Hybrid-ing? I mostly just use it for Acid/Alkali because they are the cheapest and uncommonly resisted.

Originally, I was throwing Full Pouch'ed Itching Powders (DC12 Direct or DC 8 Splash Fortitude Saves at the beginning of each turn for 1d4+1 Rounds. Each time the Fort save is failed, it is Staggered for that round). I would then switch to Full Pouch'ed Artokus's Fire + Slime Grenades for 2d6 Fire and 2d6 Acid +7 Damage (Alchemist), plus 2d6 Fire if they didn't spend a Full Round to save against it. In this case, the Full Pouch spell was used just to save and conserve money with high level Alchemical items.

After the game, I was told by one of the players that they were unsure if I was allowed to use Hybridization Funnel items as targets for the Full Pouch spell. I asked a few other people in the group and got mixed responses, the highest ranking saying Table Variance when I asked them - which is why I was asking the Forums for a RAW answer (if one is available).

It wasn't until that night when I had learned that Full Pouch was nerfed. I have (a lot) of Alchemical Items with low-DC checks which I was relying on Full Pouch to help enhance. Unfortunately, due to this, my pockets are filled with junk that can't be used at higher level play. (Or it can, but you would be wasting your turn).

(Also, I was told that I can have a second Spell Book for Alchemical Formula's? I'm currently worried about restricted space on my current Spell book, and if this is true, I won't have to "retrain" the Full Pouch spell).


Yes. I see no rule stating nor implying otherwise.

Whisperer in Darkness, I do not understand your answers. This is a Rules Question, not a PFS question, AFAIK; price never comes up in RAW for full pouch; and unless the hybridization funnel is disallowed entirely in PFS, there's no basis for treating the result as unusable for this purpose.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The problem is that it is unclear if the hybridized substance is an alchemical item.
In Ultimate equipment, we have 3 sections in chapter 2:
Alchemical tools
Alchemical remedies
Alchemical weapons
alchemy manual add Alchemical Reagents

The hybridized items aren't listed there or in any other location as alchemical items, AFAIK. As the only definition of what is an alchemical item is being defined as such by the rules, so, RAW, hybridized items aren't. They can be a combination of two alchemical items, but that doesn't mean they are one.

@TheMonkeyFish

Hybridization Funnel wrote:
Only liquids may be mixed with the funnel.

Itching powder can't be hybridized.

Sovereign Court

Again, if Hybridized items (mixtures) are not alchemical items why would the funnel go out of its way to say:

Hybridization Funnel wrote:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. ... A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.


That's a pretty big stretch, but possible, since the "mixture" is really still two alchemical items. Perhaps full pouch would produce only one half of the mixture then?


blahpers wrote:

Yes. I see no rule stating nor implying otherwise.

Whisperer in Darkness, I do not understand your answers. This is a Rules Question, not a PFS question, AFAIK; price never comes up in RAW for full pouch; and unless the hybridization funnel is disallowed entirely in PFS, there's no basis for treating the result as unusable for this purpose.

I feel like I have somehow misread this or there has been some form of misunderstanding. To clarify, this is partially a PFS related question. Though I am still fairly inexperienced when it comes to PFS rules and regulations. Is there a PFS restriction to how much a duplicated item can cost before it is duplicated? I've never heard this referenced anywhere before.

Diego Rossi wrote:
@TheMonkeyFish Itching powder can't be hybridized.

I never Hybridized Itching Powder... I Full Pouched Itching Powder... This was BEFORE I was made aware to the changes of Full Pouch on the rules clarification page. I don't believe I said that I hybridized Itching Powder during this thread?

I already learned that Itching Powder and the like can't be Hybridized in the past - it was my first time using the item at the table and the DM pulled me aside to ask what item I was using. He then told me I was using it incorrectly, and I adjusted my play style since then.

I'm uncertain how my previous posts suggested otherwise.

Scarab Sages

Firebug wrote:
Again, if Hybridized items (mixtures) are not alchemical items why would the funnel go out of its way to say:
Hybridization Funnel wrote:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. ... A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

Because it limits what you can combine to alchemical splash weapons and not other alchemical items.

It requires two alchemical splash weapons, and mixes them into a single flask - at which point the result is called a mixture.

A mixture is not explicitly an alchemical item. The funnel says that you can throw it as a splash weapon and, when thrown, it has the effects of both component substances. But it's still not explicitly an alchemical item, just a mixture that has the effects of two different alchemical items.

Of course, it's reasonable to say that it should still count as an alchemical weapon. And also reasonable to say that it still counts as two alchemical weapons so you couldn't use full pouch on it.

Sovereign Court

Magicdealer wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Again, if Hybridized items (mixtures) are not alchemical items why would the funnel go out of its way to say:
Hybridization Funnel wrote:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. ... A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

Because it limits what you can combine to alchemical splash weapons and not other alchemical items.

It requires two alchemical splash weapons, and mixes them into a single flask - at which point the result is called a mixture.

A mixture is not explicitly an alchemical item. The funnel says that you can throw it as a splash weapon and, when thrown, it has the effects of both component substances. But it's still not explicitly an alchemical item, just a mixture that has the effects of two different alchemical items.

Of course, it's reasonable to say that it should still count as an alchemical weapon. And also reasonable to say that it still counts as two alchemical weapons so you couldn't use full pouch on it.

I think you missed my point. If a mixture is not an Alchemical Splash Weapon, why does it say you can't combine mixtures? I would agree that a mixture is not an explicit alchemical splash weapon, just an implicit one.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Firebug wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Again, if Hybridized items (mixtures) are not alchemical items why would the funnel go out of its way to say:
Hybridization Funnel wrote:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. ... A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

Because it limits what you can combine to alchemical splash weapons and not other alchemical items.

It requires two alchemical splash weapons, and mixes them into a single flask - at which point the result is called a mixture.

A mixture is not explicitly an alchemical item. The funnel says that you can throw it as a splash weapon and, when thrown, it has the effects of both component substances. But it's still not explicitly an alchemical item, just a mixture that has the effects of two different alchemical items.

Of course, it's reasonable to say that it should still count as an alchemical weapon. And also reasonable to say that it still counts as two alchemical weapons so you couldn't use full pouch on it.

I think you missed my point. If a mixture is not an Alchemical Splash Weapon, why does it say you can't combine mixtures? I would agree that a mixture is not an explicit alchemical splash weapon, just an implicit one.

And it being implicit and not explicit you get table variation.

Note that the hybrid mixture has a shelf life of 24 hours, while the alchemical splash weapons don't have a shelf life, an that, to use your argument, the item description goes out of its way to never call the mixture alchemical item. It always uses the term mixture.

As a something, generally, when used in the rules, mean that the item isn't something but work in the same way for what is specifically mentioned.
Sadly that isn't always true as the rules aren't always consistent in the use of the term. Different contributors and all that.

Quote:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. Using the vial requires 10 minutes and a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check; a half-elf has a +5 bonus on this check. Failing the check means both splash weapon are destroyed. Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. The mixture becomes inert after 24 hours. Only liquids may be mixed with the funnel. The bearer can use it to mix an alchemical splash weapon with either holy water or unholy water, but the Craft (alchemy) DC increases to 30; half-elves still get the +5 bonus on this check. The funnel does not work on potions, elixirs, extracts, or other materials. Mixing a substance with a similar or identical substance (such as alchemist’s fire with alchemist’s fire) has no effect. A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

All said and done, it depends on the GM interpretation, as the rules are silent.

@TheMonkeyFish Sorry, I didn't read your piece about using itching powder carefully and thought you mean "with the Hybridization Funnel". My error.

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