paizo.com Recent Posts in Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous Castingpaizo.com Recent Posts in Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous Casting2019-01-14T06:08:29Z2019-01-14T06:08:29ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#242019-01-15T22:00:26Z2019-01-15T22:00:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Loreguard wrote:</div><blockquote><p> What if sorcerers, in lieu of choosing availability of spontaneous heightening for a particular day, would be allowed to select and then be able to provide a casting of a specific spell otherwise known (but not in their current repertoire of spells), but be limited to it being only for the purpose of providing that spell for crafting purposes. It would also of course consume a spell slot of the appropriate level when used for this crafting process. It cannot be used to cast the spell directly as per a normal spell. </p>
<p>Or just have it be part of Crafting for a sorcerer, that they may temporarily swap one spell out of the repertoire with a spell known, which during the time of casting, is only available for the purposes of providing a casting for the crafting purposes. At the completion of the crafting, the original spell in the repertoire returns as before the crafting began.</p>
<p>Either option might allow sorcerers access to a bit more of the crafting flexibility that the prepared casters have, while requiring a reasonable cost to them, but relatively simple to implement. </blockquote><p>Your post inspired me to come up with this:
<p><b>Spontaneous Generation</b></p>
<p><i>When you craft a magic item, you may ignore one spell prerequisite. To do so, you must expend a spell slot of the highest level you can cast. You can only do this with spells you know well and spells of a level you can cast. You are considered to know all of the spells in your repertoire well. You can familiarize yourself with more spells using the Learn A Spell activity of the Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion skills. </p>
<p>When crafting scrolls, wands, or staves, you can only use Spontaneous Generation to ignore the spell requisite for a spell appearing on your spell list.</i> </p>
<p>The above was based on the 1E Sorcerer's Impossible Bloodline ability also called Spontaneous Generation.</p>Loreguard wrote:What if sorcerers, in lieu of choosing availability of spontaneous heightening for a particular day, would be allowed to select and then be able to provide a casting of a specific spell otherwise known (but not in their current repertoire of spells), but be limited to it being only for the purpose of providing that spell for crafting purposes. It would also of course consume a spell slot of the appropriate level when used for this crafting process. It cannot be used to cast...Geminus2019-01-15T22:00:26ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingLoreguardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#232019-01-15T19:25:01Z2019-01-15T19:25:01Z<p>Well potions are no longer supposed to be a spell in a bottle, so that is probably part of the reason for the removal of that requirement.</p>
<p>I agree that prepared casters have a natural ability to make up for their own selection by self-crafting. It is still dependent on their being able have learned the spells in question, but they can make scrolls to insure they have their rarely needed spells available as scrolls, without taking up prepared spell slots. (both without requiring GM determination of scroll availability, nor without full price cost)</p>
<p>What if sorcerers, in lieu of choosing availability of spontaneous heightening for a particular day, would be allowed to select and then be able to provide a casting of a specific spell otherwise known (but not in their current repertoire of spells), but be limited to it being only for the purpose of providing that spell for crafting purposes. It would also of course consume a spell slot of the appropriate level when used for this crafting process. It cannot be used to cast the spell directly as per a normal spell. </p>
<p>Or just have it be part of Crafting for a sorcerer, that they may temporarily swap one spell out of the repertoire with a spell known, which during the time of casting, is only available for the purposes of providing a casting for the crafting purposes. At the completion of the crafting, the original spell in the repertoire returns as before the crafting began.</p>
<p>Either option might allow sorcerers access to a bit more of the crafting flexibility that the prepared casters have, while requiring a reasonable cost to them, but relatively simple to implement.</p>
<p>Maybe if the downtime it takes to swap spells of a sorcerer isn't as long as one would have thought it was, perhaps sorcerers don't have as much of a crafting issue as we thought though. [especially if the downtime could overlap defined crafting time] I think most people however think of sorcerer's only changing spells at level up, by default.</p>
<p>BTW: The limitation of not being able to use many scrolls because of Resonance doesn't really work long term since Resonance won't be in P2 when it comes out, based on information that has come out.</p>
<p>The point that with the new crafting rules, unless you have a lot of downtime, it is true that crafting your own scrolls is no longer really half price. [you could have spent that time earning the same amount of income, if you weren't working on completing the scroll for free] But it still is quite relevant that the Wizard can make any scroll he or she knows, while a sorcerer, it currently needs to be one which they have in their repertoire (making it less likely they need the scroll). Otherwise, the sorcerer needs to rely on the market having the spell scrolls they need available as scrolls.</p>Well potions are no longer supposed to be a spell in a bottle, so that is probably part of the reason for the removal of that requirement.
I agree that prepared casters have a natural ability to make up for their own selection by self-crafting. It is still dependent on their being able have learned the spells in question, but they can make scrolls to insure they have their rarely needed spells available as scrolls, without taking up prepared spell slots. (both without requiring GM...Loreguard2019-01-15T19:25:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#222019-01-15T03:38:33Z2019-01-15T03:38:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Excaliburproxy wrote:</div><blockquote> It also occurs to me that maybe there only needs to be changes to the scribe scroll skill feat to address your issue (and/or clarification on what constitutes an "available" spell). </blockquote><p>They already removed a lot of limitations on brewing potions. Basically anyone with the magical crafting feat can make potions now without having to "supply a casting of X spell". I would love it if they loosened the reigns on scrolls as well. However, I would keep wands and staves caster exclusive.Excaliburproxy wrote:It also occurs to me that maybe there only needs to be changes to the scribe scroll skill feat to address your issue (and/or clarification on what constitutes an "available" spell).
They already removed a lot of limitations on brewing potions. Basically anyone with the magical crafting feat can make potions now without having to "supply a casting of X spell". I would love it if they loosened the reigns on scrolls as well. However, I would keep wands and staves caster...Geminus2019-01-15T03:38:33ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#212019-01-15T03:30:37Z2019-01-15T03:30:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> And I mean you can't necessarily change your GM (though talking to him/her may be an option when there's something that effects the game this much), but that doesn't really speak to the balance of the game as a whole, just under a specific GM's altered version of the game.
</p>
</blockquote><p>It does speak to the balance of the game that prepared casters can craft and buy their way around of some of their limitations, but spontaneous casters can only buy. Nor does it change the fact that Quick Study is incredible, with no spontaneous equivalent.Edge93 wrote:And I mean you can't necessarily change your GM (though talking to him/her may be an option when there's something that effects the game this much), but that doesn't really speak to the balance of the game as a whole, just under a specific GM's altered version of the game.
It does speak to the balance of the game that prepared casters can craft and buy their way around of some of their limitations, but spontaneous casters can only buy. Nor does it change the fact that Quick...Geminus2019-01-15T03:30:37ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingExcaliburproxyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#202019-01-15T02:43:06Z2019-01-15T02:43:06Z<p>It also occurs to me that maybe there only needs to be changes to the scribe scroll skill feat to address your issue (and/or clarification on what constitutes an "available" spell).</p>It also occurs to me that maybe there only needs to be changes to the scribe scroll skill feat to address your issue (and/or clarification on what constitutes an "available" spell).Excaliburproxy2019-01-15T02:43:06ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#192019-01-15T02:24:21Z2019-01-15T02:24:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Geminus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Cyouni wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire. </p>
<p>Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility. </blockquote>That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with self-made items. Sorcerers and Bards can only compensate for lower daily versatility with items bought from someone else. That feels imbalanced to me. </blockquote><p>I mean, again, for spells that aren't a couple levels below your best, wealth is a big limiter on how much you can do this. If you're having to use scrolls to cover for your spell selection often you will run out of money quick.
<p>Like, I get where you're coming from but in my experience it's not nearly so big an issue.</p>
<p>With what you said about your own games with your GM, yeah, there's a certain value to prepared casting there IF you are regularly finding your own spell selection lacking. But honestly that's kind of an issue with your GM. Even the standard PF1 rules on item availability aren't so restrictive, they let you find items of a certain price or lower with high reliability (I think large cities, the step below Metropolis, is anything 8,000 GP or lower while the step below that is 4,000 so you have to be in some backwater to not be finding scrolls or wands reliably under those rules).</p>
<p>And I mean you can't necessarily change your GM (though talking to him/her may be an option when there's something that effects the game this much), but that doesn't really speak to the balance of the game as a whole, just under a specific GM's altered version of the game.</p>
<p>PF is largely built with the assumption of being able to get more or less what you want to a certain degree, and definitely with consumables like that.</p>Geminus wrote:Cyouni wrote:Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire.
Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.
That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with...Edge932019-01-15T02:24:21ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingExcaliburproxyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#182019-01-15T02:02:56Z2019-01-15T02:02:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Geminus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Cyouni wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire. </p>
<p>Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility. </blockquote>That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with self-made items. Sorcerers and Bards can only compensate for lower daily versatility with items bought from someone else. That feels imbalanced to me. </blockquote><p>Well, there are some spells that you can learn that will ensure that you will never have a "dead slot". A sorceror with something like summon monster or heal as a heightened spell will always have something pretty useful they can do with their level X spell slot but a cleric who readies disrupting weapons and then encounters no undead has one fewer useful spell that day.
<p>That said, I agree that there is room in the game for a magic item or feat that messes with spontaneous casters' spell list a bit, even if the potion presented above is a bit of an over-correction.</p>Geminus wrote:Cyouni wrote:Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire.
Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.
That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with...Excaliburproxy2019-01-15T02:02:56ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#172019-01-15T01:43:15Z2019-01-15T01:43:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cyouni wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire. </p>
<p>Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility. </blockquote><p>That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with self-made items. Sorcerers and Bards can only compensate for lower daily versatility with items bought from someone else. That feels imbalanced to me.Cyouni wrote:Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire.
Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.
That brings me back to my original post. Prepared casters can compensate for "dead slots" and other limitations with self-made items....Geminus2019-01-15T01:43:15ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#162019-01-15T01:33:03Z2019-01-15T01:33:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote> and I personally like bloodline powers. </blockquote><p>In some ways, I prefer the bloodline design of 1E. There is no doubt that the bloodline powers in 2E scale better, but I liked how in 1E the bloodlines conferred passive bonuses in addition to active powers. For instance, the draconic bloodline gave an AC buff and elemental resistances. In the absence of these highly thematic bonuses, Bloodline powers are functionally no different than Cleric Domain abilities or Wizard school abilities.Edge93 wrote:and I personally like bloodline powers.
In some ways, I prefer the bloodline design of 1E. There is no doubt that the bloodline powers in 2E scale better, but I liked how in 1E the bloodlines conferred passive bonuses in addition to active powers. For instance, the draconic bloodline gave an AC buff and elemental resistances. In the absence of these highly thematic bonuses, Bloodline powers are functionally no different than Cleric Domain abilities or Wizard school abilities.Geminus2019-01-15T01:33:03ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingCyounihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#152019-01-15T01:05:52Z2019-01-15T01:05:52Z<p>Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire. </p>
<p>Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.</p>Anecdotally, it's the difference between my player's level 17 Sorcerer wanting to throw out Meteor Swarms and instantly swapping over to two Power Word Kill and a heightened Finger of Death when they realized the enemies were immune to fire.
Sorcerers are significantly less vulnerable to having dead slots at the cost of lower daily versatility.Cyouni2019-01-15T01:05:52ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#142019-01-15T00:47:36Z2019-01-15T00:47:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Geminus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote> There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting... </blockquote><p>That's actually another problem I have with prepared vs. spontaneous casting in the current version of 2E. In my opinion, spontaneous casting should have a lot more to offer than just simplicity. As the only alternative to Vancian spell casting, it should be its own robust magical framework with distinct advantages and disadvantages. For example, in 5E the Sorcerer is limited to a paltry 15 spells known, but in exchange they gain exclusive access to metamagic and their Sorcerer Points allow them to cast potentially more spells per day than Wizards. At present the 2E Sorcerer has nothing to offer a player besides simplicity. Sure at max level they can have 40ish spells in their repertoire, but 10 of those spells are predetermined for them by their bloodline, and the Sorcerer has to expend slots on multiple versions of the same spell.
<p>Correct me if I am wrong, but besides being "simple" what mechanically does the Sorcerer bring to the table? What other advantage do they have over Clerics, Wizards, or Druids? At least the Bard has its support capabilities, lore mastery, and skills.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I can't think of all of their class feats offhand but a lot of them are quite useful. Sorcerers are the only Occult, Primal, or Divine casters who can counter and reflect spells of their tradition, Quicken Spell is great and only shared by the Wizard, and I personally like bloodline powers.
<p>In addition, they have an extra spell per day per level over Druids, and the same over Clerics though Clerics get some of that back with Channel.</p>
<p>Wizards is a different boat, as really the only great differences between them are school vs. bloodline, Int vs. Cha, and prepared vs. spontaneous. The choice comes down to personal preference even more than it does with the other two classes.</p>
<p>One thing though that is also in favor of Spontaneous: They are more reliable in being able to use the spells that they know when they are needed. If a prepared caster prepares a spell once for the day and casts it but then needs it again, they are crap out of luck barring a feature like arcane focus. But the spontaneous caster is only out of luck there if he has no spell slots left of that level or any above it. There are a lot of "staple" spells that can find use multiple times per day, this is an area where the sorcerer shines. They can take these spells and be able to cast them as many times as needed up to their limit while still taking other spells known of the same level for if those turn out to be needed instead. A prepared caster has to guess at how many times they will need/want a given staple spell in a day, and if they are preparing multiple spells more than once per day each then they are really cutting into their number of different options for that day, to the point where the Sorcerer has more different spells that he can call upon for that day.</p>
<p>Prepared can call upon a great variety of spells over the course of days, and in the case of the Wizard can even change them over a short rest (again this isn't a prepared vs. spontaneous thing, it's a wizards-have-a-really-strong-ability thing), but they either can only call each option once per day (Again arcane focus is an exception, but that's once a day unless you are a universalist or take additional feats, and Universalists get less options per day as a drawback to the extra focuses) or else are cramping down their number of different options for the day to get more uses per day of commonly used spells.</p>
<p>Spontaneous don't have as much variety across the course of days, but they do have as many or more different options available in the span of a single day, and they can rely more on having those options available due to not having to pre-choose the number of times they can use each one.</p>
<p>In practice I have found these to be very valuable boons, plenty to justify them next to prepared casters.</p>Geminus wrote:Edge93 wrote: There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting...
That's actually another problem I have with prepared vs. spontaneous casting in the current version of 2E. In my opinion, spontaneous casting should have a lot more to offer than just simplicity. As the only alternative to Vancian spell casting, it should be its own robust magical framework with distinct advantages and disadvantages. For example, in 5E the Sorcerer is limited to a paltry 15...Edge932019-01-15T00:47:36ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#132019-01-15T00:08:09Z2019-01-15T00:08:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote> There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting... </blockquote><p>That's actually another problem I have with prepared vs. spontaneous casting in the current version of 2E. In my opinion, spontaneous casting should have a lot more to offer than just simplicity. As the only alternative to Vancian spell casting, it should be its own robust magical framework with distinct advantages and disadvantages. For example, in 5E the Sorcerer is limited to a paltry 15 spells known, but in exchange they gain exclusive access to metamagic and their Sorcerer Points allow them to cast potentially more spells per day than Wizards. At present the 2E Sorcerer has nothing to offer a player besides simplicity. Sure at max level they can have 40ish spells in their repertoire, but 10 of those spells are predetermined for them by their bloodline, and the Sorcerer has to expend slots on multiple versions of the same spell.
<p>Correct me if I am wrong, but besides being "simple" what mechanically does the Sorcerer bring to the table? What other advantage do they have over Clerics, Wizards, or Druids? At least the Bard has its support capabilities, lore mastery, and skills.</p>Edge93 wrote:There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting...
That's actually another problem I have with prepared vs. spontaneous casting in the current version of 2E. In my opinion, spontaneous casting should have a lot more to offer than just simplicity. As the only alternative to Vancian spell casting, it should be its own robust magical framework with distinct advantages and disadvantages. For example, in 5E the Sorcerer is limited to a paltry 15 spells known, but...Geminus2019-01-15T00:08:09ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#122019-01-14T23:40:27Z2019-01-14T23:40:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Captain Morgan wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Yeah the crafting advantage is really just relevant if you can't find a good shop. Which is not nothing, but it is a pretty specific issue.</p>
<p>Frankly, if your magical item access is limited that much, I'd expect you also need to craft to get your choice of permanent items and that's a better use of your time, so spells known stops being relevant. </blockquote><p>My desire for crafting equality stems from my experience playing. The GM I play with the most is a hardcore believer in randomization. Unless we are in some sort of mega-metropolis where all common magic items are for sale (which has happened twice in the three years I have been playing with him), we can never assume what we want will be readily accessible. For example, when I first started playing with him, it took me 4-5 sessions to buy a wand of CLW, because the dice were never in my favor when rolling for store inventory. If I have wanted access to anything besides basic healing potions on a reliable basis, I have had to craft it myself. So a strong desire for self-sufficiency has been deeply ingrained in me.Captain Morgan wrote:Yeah the crafting advantage is really just relevant if you can't find a good shop. Which is not nothing, but it is a pretty specific issue.
Frankly, if your magical item access is limited that much, I'd expect you also need to craft to get your choice of permanent items and that's a better use of your time, so spells known stops being relevant.
My desire for crafting equality stems from my experience playing. The GM I play with the most is a hardcore believer in...Geminus2019-01-14T23:40:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingCaptain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#112019-01-15T01:41:00Z2019-01-14T19:52:52Z<p>Yeah the crafting advantage is really just relevant if you can't find a good shop. Which is not nothing, but it is a pretty specific issue.</p>
<p>Frankly, if your magical item access is limited that much, I'd expect you also need to craft to get your choice of permanent items and that's a better use of your time, so spells known stops being relevant.</p>Yeah the crafting advantage is really just relevant if you can't find a good shop. Which is not nothing, but it is a pretty specific issue.
Frankly, if your magical item access is limited that much, I'd expect you also need to craft to get your choice of permanent items and that's a better use of your time, so spells known stops being relevant.Captain Morgan2019-01-14T19:52:52ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#102019-01-14T15:29:27Z2019-01-14T15:29:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Geminus wrote:</div><blockquote> Stuff </blockquote><p>Hmm, I'll have to look over that. I was just looking at the general magic item requirements where it says you have to have access to the spell.
<p>If that's true you do have something of a point, though I think you might be somewhat over-valuing consumables. As to the half price notion it takes a LOT of downtime to be able to make scrolls at half price and if you are getting that much downtime to cheapen your scrolls then the Sorcerer could be doing downtime activities to potentially raise a comparable amount of money to what you are saving to spend on scrolls, shortening the gap. Crafting's main boon is for if you don't have access to a shop with the scrolls and stuff you need but I think that's pretty GM dependent. It is useful though.</p>
<p>And scrolls and wands are limited by Resonance (at earlier levels) and cost. An on-level scroll is usually a significant chunk of your spending money at a given level, and cheaper scrolls are limited by the caps on their DC and Spell Roll, meaning you can mostly only use them for spells like buffs that don't involve a save. Still useful, but it shrinks the pool.</p>
<p>TL;DR Spontaneous can get scrolls of spells they don't know ALMOST as easily as a Prepared can get them for spells he hasn't prepared, and almost as cost-effectively. And their ability to actually use such consumables is identical.</p>
<p>So the prepared caster may have a slight edge here but I don't think it's enough to make any kind of real issue.</p>
<p>EDIT: Especially considering to have more spells known than a Sorcerer (Aside from a handful of extra level 1 spells at 1st level) they need to spend additional time and money learning new spells.</p>
<p>Well for Wizards at least. Druid and Cleric don't have to but they also aren't as naturally gifted at crafting, it being an Int skill. But then again Sorcerer is in the same boat. Thankfully crafting is manageable for anyone who invests in it but dang if it isn't easier to just go to the store sometimes. XD</p>Geminus wrote:Stuff
Hmm, I'll have to look over that. I was just looking at the general magic item requirements where it says you have to have access to the spell. If that's true you do have something of a point, though I think you might be somewhat over-valuing consumables. As to the half price notion it takes a LOT of downtime to be able to make scrolls at half price and if you are getting that much downtime to cheapen your scrolls then the Sorcerer could be doing downtime activities to...Edge932019-01-14T15:29:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#92019-01-14T15:17:18Z2019-01-14T15:17:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">FowlJ wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.</p>
<p>And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire. </blockquote><p>Is there anywhere in particular where the rules clarify this distinction? The closest I can find is in the class features for Bard and Sorcerer, where it says "You must know spells to cast them, and you learn them via the Spell Repertoire class feature" - I suppose could be read "You must know spells to cast them, and you [must have] learn[ed] them via the Spell Repertoire class feature", which would identify them as two different things, but my first reading would be that it's just a very strange and awkward way of referring to the process of gaining new spells known (lord knows it's not the only case of that in the playtest).
<p>The Spell Repertoire feature makes no reference to 'Spells Known' as a distinct concept, nor does 'Learn a ... Spell' in the skills section, nor as far as I can tell does the Spellcasting chapter. </blockquote><p>I mean, it could stand to be fleshed out more but I think the learn a spell thing makes it fairy clear. It says you learn the spell, and if you are a spontaneous caster you can then select it for your Repertoire when you add or swap a spell, which makes it clear that there is a distinction between spells you academically know and ones you can channel your innate magic to cast.
<p>I do agree it's weird but I think it's at least fairly clear. The weirdness comes in mainly because you generally just need to use this for uncommon and rare spells because you can already freely choose from common spells for your repertoire whether or not you learned them this way.</p>FowlJ wrote:Edge93 wrote:To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.
And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.
Is there anywhere in particular where the rules clarify this...Edge932019-01-14T15:17:18ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#82019-01-14T09:53:06Z2019-01-14T09:53:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire. </blockquote><p>Im specifically focusing on magic consumables (wands, scrolls, potions, etc.), because they have usually been used to supplements a caster's magical arsenal.
<p>I would be happy to be wrong, but if you look at the crafting requirements for scrolls, staves, and wands., they all say "Supply a casting of X spell" under crafting requirements, not "know X spell". A spontaneous caster can only cast a spell if its in their repertoire, or presumably if they source the spell from an item or another caster. Once again, this leaves prepared casters at an advantage, because they can change their prepared spells everyday, and thus what magical consumables they can make, everyday. Since it is harder for spontaneous casters to change their spells, it greatly restricts the different types of magical consumables they can make. </p>
<p>A Wizard and a Sorcerer can probably make the same number of scrolls in a given timespan. However, since the Wizard has greater spell access, they can make a wide variety of scrolls, while the Sorcerer is stuck making the same scrolls, of the same spells, over and over again. Since Wizards can trot out a scroll of basically any spell they know, at any given time, this undercuts the supposed "disadvantage" of prepared casting. If they don't have the spell they need prepared, they can break out a scroll they made at half-cost, or fall back on Quick Study. If a Sorcerer doesn't have the spell they need, they have to fallback on whatever they have purchased (at full price) beforehand. In this regard, the Wizard is self-sufficient, and the Sorcerer is not.</p>
<p>Potions appear to be different. None of the potions I saw in the rulebook said anything about "supplying a casting of" or knowing any spell. I assume this was done by Paizo so anyone could brew things like healing potions.</p>Edge93 wrote:And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.
Im specifically focusing on magic consumables (wands, scrolls, potions, etc.), because they have usually been used to supplements a caster's magical arsenal. I would be happy to be wrong, but if you look at the crafting requirements for scrolls, staves, and wands., they all say "Supply a casting of X spell" under crafting requirements, not "know X spell". A spontaneous caster can...Geminus2019-01-14T09:53:06ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingFowlJhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#72019-01-14T07:56:00Z2019-01-14T07:56:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.</p>
<p>And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire. </blockquote><p>Is there anywhere in particular where the rules clarify this distinction? The closest I can find is in the class features for Bard and Sorcerer, where it says "You must know spells to cast them, and you learn them via the Spell Repertoire class feature" - I suppose could be read "You must know spells to cast them, and you [must have] learn[ed] them via the Spell Repertoire class feature", which would identify them as two different things, but my first reading would be that it's just a very strange and awkward way of referring to the process of gaining new spells known (lord knows it's not the only case of that in the playtest).
<p>The Spell Repertoire feature makes no reference to 'Spells Known' as a distinct concept, nor does 'Learn a ... Spell' in the skills section, nor as far as I can tell does the Spellcasting chapter.</p>Edge93 wrote:To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.
And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.
Is there anywhere in particular where the rules clarify this distinction? The...FowlJ2019-01-14T07:56:00ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#62019-01-14T07:29:41Z2019-01-14T07:29:41Z<p>To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.</p>
<p>And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.</p>To reiterate in case I did not express it well, there is a distinction between your spells known and your Spell Repertoire as a spontaneous caster. Knowing a spell doesn't necessarily mean it's in your repertoire (Which it would need to be to cast it) but any spell in your repertoire is a spell known.
And spells only need to be known to be used in crafting, they don't have to be in your repertoire.Edge932019-01-14T07:29:41ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#52019-01-14T07:27:38Z2019-01-14T07:27:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Geminus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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<p>But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.
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</blockquote>Yes spontaneous casters can craft, but they can only make scrolls, wands, etc. of spells they know. So when they make items, they are only expanding their number of spells per day, not diversifying their spellcasting portfolio. Prepared casters on the other hand can create scrolls, wands, etc. of any spell they can prepare, so they are expanding their number of spells per day, and increasing the number of different spells they have available at any given moment. </blockquote><p>That's not actually QUITE true.
<p>From the Trained uses of the Arcana skill:</p>
<p>If you are an arcane spellcaster, you can gain access to a new arcane spell from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll. To learn the spell, you must do the following. • Spend 1 hour per level of the spell, during which you must remain in conversation with the person who knows the spell or have the magical writing in your possession. • Have an amount of magical materials with a value indicated in Table 4–2 above. • Attempt an Arcana check with a DC determined by the GM (see Table 4–2 above). </p>
<p>Success: You expend the materials and learn the spell. If you have a spellbook, the spell is added to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it’s added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.</p>
<p>And there is a matching entry for the other 3 magical traditions under their respective skills.</p>
<p>Now, this ability is primarily used to gain access to uncommon or rare spells if you find copies of them (as you cannot normally choose these spells unless they are specifically granted by a feat or feature), and it is largely unnecessary for spontaneous casters otherwise normally as when they add new spells to their Repertoire (The pool of spells they can actually cast) they can just choose from the common spells on their list, no need to learn them this way.</p>
<p>But if you want to craft, this option is much more useful than just for gaining access to uncommon spells you find. Learning a spell this way may not allow you to cast it (unless you choose it as a spell for your repertoire when you level up) but it DOES qualify as knowing the spell for the purpose of crafting.</p>
<p>So you can actually learn extra spells in the same manner as the Wizard for the purposes of crafting. And the spells you get in your repertoire are roughly equivalent in number to the two free spells the Wizard learns for their spellbook every level, so you aren't even hurting for quantity by comparison.</p>Geminus wrote:Edge93 wrote:But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.
Yes spontaneous casters can craft, but they can only make scrolls, wands, etc. of spells they know. So when they make items, they are only expanding their number of spells per day, not diversifying their spellcasting portfolio. Prepared casters on the other hand can...Edge932019-01-14T07:27:38ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#42019-01-14T06:35:41Z2019-01-14T06:35:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Edge93 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Yes spontaneous casters can craft, but they can only make scrolls, wands, etc. of spells they know. So when they make items, they are only expanding their number of spells per day, not diversifying their spellcasting portfolio. Prepared casters on the other hand can create scrolls, wands, etc. of any spell they can prepare, so they are expanding their number of spells per day, and increasing the number of different spells they have available at any given moment.Edge93 wrote:But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.
Yes spontaneous casters can craft, but they can only make scrolls, wands, etc. of spells they know. So when they make items, they are only expanding their number of spells per day, not diversifying their spellcasting portfolio. Prepared casters on the other hand can create scrolls,...Geminus2019-01-14T06:35:41ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#32019-01-14T06:27:34Z2019-01-14T06:27:34Z<p>But really in general I think they are close enough to where it really comes down to preference of style. I've never had someone who preferred a smaller pool of spells to use from more freely but felt spontaneous casters were too weak compared to prepared, and I've never had the inverse happen either. Though honestly I'm not sure I've known many people who actually prepared the style of prepared casting over spontaneous, more that the class they wanted to play just happened to be prepared rather than spontaneous and they were fine with it.</p>
<p>There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of spontaneous casting...</p>But really in general I think they are close enough to where it really comes down to preference of style. I've never had someone who preferred a smaller pool of spells to use from more freely but felt spontaneous casters were too weak compared to prepared, and I've never had the inverse happen either. Though honestly I'm not sure I've known many people who actually prepared the style of prepared casting over spontaneous, more that the class they wanted to play just happened to be prepared...Edge932019-01-14T06:27:34ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingEdge93https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#22019-01-14T06:24:40Z2019-01-14T06:24:40Z<p>Eh, I've never seen much of a problem here but I know others have. I think they are better balanced in PF2 than in PF1 as casters have less spells per day and so prepared casters cannot prepare for as wide a variety of possibilities.</p>
<p>But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.</p>
<p>Quick Preparation may be a little OP, though it is a very nice ability, but it's also only on Wizards, only one of three prepared casters. So it really isn't a wholesale prepared vs. spontaneous issue.</p>
<p>And the differing effects of spells at different levels makes Spontaneous Heightening and any boosts to it (Bloodline Heightening for Sorcerer, Additional Heightening for Bard) a very good edge in their favor as it is a significant expansion of their options potentially.</p>Eh, I've never seen much of a problem here but I know others have. I think they are better balanced in PF2 than in PF1 as casters have less spells per day and so prepared casters cannot prepare for as wide a variety of possibilities.
But there is nothing preventing spontaneous casters from creating magic items as far as I know, so this really isn't a contributor to any discrepancy. Both casting types have equal access to that.
Quick Preparation may be a little OP, though it is a very nice...Edge932019-01-14T06:24:40ZForums: Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion: Discrepancy Between Prepared and Spontaneous CastingGeminushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42fls?Discrepancy-Between-Prepared-and-Spontaneous#12019-01-14T06:08:29Z2019-01-14T06:08:29Z<p>The supposed advantage of Prepared Casting over Spontaneous casting is that in exchange for having to plan their spells beforehand, Prepared Casters can potentially access every spell on their spell list. Conversely, the supposed advantage of Spontaneous Casting over prepared casting, is that in exchange for the flexibility to cast unplanned, Spontaneous Casters have a limited spell selection. </p>
<p>However, Prepared Casters have always had self-sufficient means to address the supposed rigidity of prepared casting. For example, Prepared Casters can spend their downtime making scrolls, wands, and potions that allow them to access numerous spells on the fly. Furthermore, class features like Quick Study allow Wizards to adjust their prepared spells in a matter of minutes. In contrast, if a spontaneous caster wants to expand their access to spells, they must buy items at full cost. While Prepared Casters get to be economical and self-sufficient, spontaneous castes must rely on their GM to send them to places where their desired items are for sale. Additionally, I know of no spontaneous equivalent of Quick Study. </p>
<p>To address this discrepancy, I propose making it easier for Spontaneous Casters to change their spells known. Right now, Spontaneous Casters only get to swap one spell per level, or they must spend an indeterminate amount of downtime to retrain a spell. I say let Spontaneous caster make potions that allow them to change their spells known. For example:</p>
<p>1. Minor Repertoire Potion (cheaply priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change one of their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.</p>
<p>2. Lesser Repertoire Potion (less cheaply priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change three of their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.</p>
<p>3.Moderate Repertoire Potion (decently priced): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to their spellcasting modifier. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 24 hours.</p>
<p>4. Greater Repertoire Potion (this hurts the wallet): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to 3 + their spellcasting modifier. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 72 hours.</p>
<p>5. Major Repertoire Potion (expensive): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change a number of their spells known equal to their character level. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 72 hours.</p>
<p>6. True Repertoire Potion (holy mother of god expensive): When consumed allows Spontaneous Casters to change all their spells known. Once consumed, you are bolstered against the effects of any other Repertoire Potions for 1 week.
<br />
Does anyone else agree there is a discrepancy between prepared and spontaneous casting? If so, how do you propose that discrepancy be fixed?</p>The supposed advantage of Prepared Casting over Spontaneous casting is that in exchange for having to plan their spells beforehand, Prepared Casters can potentially access every spell on their spell list. Conversely, the supposed advantage of Spontaneous Casting over prepared casting, is that in exchange for the flexibility to cast unplanned, Spontaneous Casters have a limited spell selection.
However, Prepared Casters have always had self-sufficient means to address the supposed rigidity of...Geminus2019-01-14T06:08:29Z