Gypsy Prank and Weapon Finesse - do they stack?

[Zarius]

So, my GM and I are arguing over whether or not he can add his dex bonus to a combat maneuver made using a Gypsy Prank, because he's using a bladed scarf and had Weapon Finesse.

I'm telling my GM that he's an idiot, because he's replacing the CMB with his Perform Check. He's citing the line "If the gypsy gains bonuses on combat maneuver checks from any feats, spells, magic items, or similar effects, they are added to the Perform bonus when using the appropriate combat maneuver" as to why he should add his dex bonus.

Can I get a rules lawyer, please? I'd like an FAQ, if there is one, that addresses this. Or a specific rule. Or just a half-brick in a sock.

[Jared Walter 356]

Zarius wrote:

So, my GM and I are arguing over whether or not he can add his dex bonus to a combat maneuver made using a Gypsy Prank, because he's using a bladed scarf and had Weapon Finesse.

I'm telling my GM that he's an idiot, because he's replacing the CMB with his Perform Check. He's citing the line "If the gypsy gains bonuses on combat maneuver checks from any feats, spells, magic items, or similar effects, they are added to the Perform bonus when using the appropriate combat maneuver" as to why he should add his dex bonus.

Can I get a rules lawyer, please? I'd like an FAQ, if there is one, that addresses this. Or a specific rule. Or just a half-brick in a sock.

First: Weapon Finnesse only allows dex to trip, disarm, and sunder attempts.

Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat

Second: Weapon finesse does not grant a bonus on combat maneuvers, it changes the way your combat maneuver bonus is calculated [from using strength to using dex]. Just like using perform changes it to using charisma (as perform is a charisma based skill)

Third: Feats that add to combat maneuver checks are things feats like improved disarm etc, which specifically call out they provide a bonus to a specific type of maneuver check. There are numerous feats, items etc, that grant bonuses, but they say something like this: "In addition, you receive a +2 BONUS on checks made to disarm a foe." [note capitalization added for emphasis"

Your GM is incorrect here, though I don't recommend calling him an idiot.

There's my half-brick in a sock for you, though others may be able to cite an FAQ.

[Virid Dillest]

GM is definitely wrong. Gypsy Prank already gives you the ability to do combat maneuvers much better than a full martial; adding strength or Dex to the mix is just nonsense. So, that’s the common sense explanation. As for lawyering...
There is no FAQ, because the dex bonus from weapon finesse replaces a CMB value, and your CMB is completely replaced by the perform skill. This is just too cut and dry of a ruling to ever get a FAQ, much like there will never be a FAQ explaining that you can’t just keep adding +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon multiple times to make it cheaper than adding a +5. If he reads these and still doesn’t accept it, he’s not misunderstanding, just obstinate.

[Ferious Thune]

There is no FAQ, because the archetype in question is from a 3rd party publisher. You're unlikely to get an answer here. It may be better to ask the publisher directly how they think it should work or to post on the 3pp forum.

[pauljathome]

Uh, you're asking about how a third party product works. I'm pretty sure that the paizo rules forum isn't the place to get a ruling on how third party material works.

I suspect there is NOWHERE to get such a ruling but, if there is, it would be at some ICOSA site.

I'll also back the people who say that calling your GM an idiot isn't the way to win an argument.

My reaction to any player who called me an idiot (and didn't later sincerely apologize if it was said in a moment of anger) would be something like
"You're absolutely right. And I'd hate to inflict an idiot GM on you. So, in order to save you the pain of playing with an idiot GM I'm kicking you out of this campaign"

[willuwontu]

pauljathome wrote:

I suspect there is NOWHERE to get such a ruling but, if there is, it would be at some ICOSA site.

Actually it'd be the third party products rules forum.

Flagged to move.

[Zarius]

Huh. I didn't know there WAS a third party rules forum.

[Melkiador]

Being wrong doesn’t make someone an idiot. Brilliant people get a lot of things wrong. But I would say that this shouldnt be close to a big enough issue to get into a table fight. It’s very much a corner case that won’t matter for 99.9% of most games.

My personal ruling would be that you aren’t intended to get your dex bonus. Moreover I’d suggest that you are only supposed to apply bonuses that are specific to maneuvers and not just any random bonus that could happen to apply to maneuvers.

[Talonhawke]

Also they wouldn't be stacking anything they don't use their str/dex at all in this case they use their Perform skill in place of CMB meaning they are using ranks+cha+misc+anything that flat adds to a CMB check.

[Sam Phelan]

Moved Thread to Third-Party Advice and Rules. Removed some posts which did not contribute to the thread's topic and harmed the tone of the thread.

Avoid insulting language targeting other players or community members.

[Cavall]

Wouldn't that have meant you deleted the thread, Sam?