Clarification on interrupting spells with a readied action.


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Guns’n’roses for the win


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


I don't think "the developers" had a unified intent for a lot of the things that need FAQs in the CRB. Someone wrote one rule, someone else wrote another, no one noticed the discrepancy, and no one has forged a unanimous consensus on what the rule should be.
For a game this size, there is always going to be some errors of sorts, and eventually the developers will respond to this thread or a FAQ or something.

Glad to hear it! Can you tell me if Bardic Masterpieces are Bardic Performances for all purposes, and how a Bardic Masterpiece is effected by starting a different Bardic Performance?


I'll be interested to see if the Starfinder Beginner Box accidentally introduces some backdoor FAQ support by stating one particular rules interpretation with regard to things that have conflicting citations in the CRB itself.


realistically Hypothesis 1 is correct; as it is virtually impossible to react to a single action before it occurs. Example; if two dudes have guns pointed at each other, Mexican Stand-off style, the one waiting to shoot the other if he fires is just going to end up shot, he's not going to be able to react to the trigger-pull with his own trigger-pull.

If it gets to that point, Readied Actions are useless. And since we can infer that spellcasting uses as much time as that trigger-pull, there is no way to counter the spell once the motion has begun.

In both cases you need an event/trigger proceeding the attack to ready against. IE; he goes for his gun, he takes aim, he reaches for a component in his pouch, etc...

My 2 Credits


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:


I don't think "the developers" had a unified intent for a lot of the things that need FAQs in the CRB. Someone wrote one rule, someone else wrote another, no one noticed the discrepancy, and no one has forged a unanimous consensus on what the rule should be.
For a game this size, there is always going to be some errors of sorts, and eventually the developers will respond to this thread or a FAQ or something.
Glad to hear it! Can you tell me if Bardic Masterpieces are Bardic Performances for all purposes, and how a Bardic Masterpiece is effected by starting a different Bardic Performance?

DUDE- what?


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:


Glad to hear it! Can you tell me if Bardic Masterpieces are Bardic Performances for all purposes, and how a Bardic Masterpiece is effected by starting a different Bardic Performance?

DUDE- what?

I believe he's saying you're being overly optimistic in thinking that there will be an faq


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
yukongil wrote:

realistically Hypothesis 1 is correct; as it is virtually impossible to react to a single action before it occurs. Example; if two dudes have guns pointed at each other, Mexican Stand-off style, the one waiting to shoot the other if he fires is just going to end up shot, he's not going to be able to react to the trigger-pull with his own trigger-pull.

If it gets to that point, Readied Actions are useless. And since we can infer that spellcasting uses as much time as that trigger-pull, there is no way to counter the spell once the motion has begun.

In both cases you need an event/trigger proceeding the attack to ready against. IE; he goes for his gun, he takes aim, he reaches for a component in his pouch, etc...

My 2 Credits

For a mexican standoff, all you need to do is have each player roll initiative to see who shoots first.

Readying an action to shoot your target if he shoots at you will always resolve in him acting first. The triggering event will never be: he goes for his gun or takes aim or reaches for his pouch- The triggering event is his action to make a ranged attack..

We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:

DUDE- what?

Remember FAQ = Frequently Asked Question.

I'm not super familiar with the bardic performance vs. masterpiece issue from pathfinder, but I imagine it didn't come up all that often, and it didn't break too many tables, so it never got clarified.

There's the core rule book and there's a developer clarification on the issue of readied actions. Between that and reading/making a few arguments in this thread the issue is fully resolved for me and my table.

I imagine this debate doesn't show up on even the few tables that see a readied action happen, and is likely a low priority for the devs. Especially with the previous clarification.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:


Glad to hear it! Can you tell me if Bardic Masterpieces are Bardic Performances for all purposes, and how a Bardic Masterpiece is effected by starting a different Bardic Performance?

DUDE- what?
I believe he's saying you're being overly optimistic in thinking that there will be an faq

Definitely not familiar with the bardic performance/ masterpiece topic.

There will be updated FAQS. Can’t say exactly when it will come out, but I am certain it will. If it addresses this issue- it may or may not.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:


We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.

I respectfully disagree. I think that if you don't specify an appropriate event, readied actions become useless, and in my short and very limited game developing experience, developers don't devote time, energy, and resources to something that doesn't add to the gaming experience.

I think it's safe to say that the developers assuredly had something in mind with readied actions and that something is different than a reaction action.

Hopefully they give us a few minutes of their time and elaborate. Of course, they could be sitting around the table discussing the same things we are and making some decisions in how to clarify our discussion.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Guns’n’roses for the win

Winner Winner!! Well done.


Garretmander wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:

DUDE- what?

Remember FAQ = Frequently Asked Question.

I'm not super familiar with the bardic performance vs. masterpiece issue from pathfinder, but I imagine it didn't come up all that often, and it didn't break too many tables, so it never got clarified.

The latest thread asking about this is 2.5 years old, has 18 pages of discussion, and has over 400 FAQ clicks, which is insanely high. It’s the poster child for an important question that breaks lots of character concepts for a popular core class unless it’s answered, and Paizo is never going to answer it.


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Magyar5, what are you smoking and are you planning to share with the rest of the class?


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Robert Gooding wrote:
Magyar5, what are you smoking and are you planning to share with the rest of the class?

Always. Sharing is caring man!


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Magyar5 wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:


We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.

I respectfully disagree. I think that if you don't specify an appropriate event, readied actions become useless, and in my short and very limited game developing experience, developers don't devote time, energy, and resources to something that doesn't add to the gaming experience.

I think it's safe to say that the developers assuredly had something in mind with readied actions and that something is different than a reaction action.

Hopefully they give us a few minutes of their time and elaborate. Of course, they could be sitting around the table discussing the same things we are and making some decisions in how to clarify our discussion.

Every event in the following examples have actions as triggers:

The pre- decided standard action: shoot caster
The trigger action: target casts spell (casting time of 1 round or more)
If you readied an offensive action such as a ranged attack against the caster, damaging the caster will disrupt the spell.

The pre- decided standard action: shoot caster
The trigger action: target casts spell (casting time full action action or less.)
If you readied an offensive ranged attack action against the caster, the spell resolves before you can damage him.

The pre- decided standard action: Dispel Magic
The trigger action : target casts spell
If you ready a dispell magic spell to counter the caster, you act when they begin casting and depending on your spell check, the spell either fails or Succeeds.

The pre- decided standard action: Combat maneuver bull rush
The trigger action : target moves
You can ready an an offensive action such as a combat maneuver bull rush against a caster when he moves into square 1, so you can push him off a cliff before he even gets to his standard action.

The pre- decided standard action: Combat maneuver bull rush
The trigger action : target casts spell
You can ready an an offensive action such as a combat maneuver bull rush against a caster when he casts a spell, the spell resolves first and then your combat maneuver.

The pre- decided standard action: shoot target
The trigger action : sniper moves to aim weapon which is its own move action.
You shoot after he aims. Then the sniper can take his standard to shoot.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In that last example, You might kill your target before he takes his standard action to shoot.

The key to making good use of readied actions, is to set the move action as the trigger, that way you will be able to use your combat maneuver before your target takes his standard action. Your foe might be closer to you so you do not get range invrement penalties.

Move actions being divisible (Thanks BNW) makes it to so that you can set the trigger to be:
When my foe moves in this square I use my readied disarm combat maneuver.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Magyar5 wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:


We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.

I respectfully disagree. I think that if you don't specify an appropriate event, readied actions become useless, and in my short and very limited game developing experience, developers don't devote time, energy, and resources to something that doesn't add to the gaming experience.

I think it's safe to say that the developers assuredly had something in mind with readied actions and that something is different than a reaction action.

You can have both: useful readied actions that add to the gaming experience AND action triggered events.

I like your example you had earlier, with the readied bull rush against the spellcaster in an attempt to push him off the edge when he moves into position and casts.

Readying against the casting (full action or less) results in the caster resolving his spell first. It would have been better to delay your turn and get a round of actions instead of a single action.

Readying against the movement, results in you acting first. This is your chance to pull off sneaky cunning trickery, possibly preventing the spell casting action you target had planned.


200 posts on readied actions just proves that ready actions are just bugged in Starfinder.
I quite love the fact that you can't aim at someone and tell him to drop his weapon or you shoot, and actually shoot before he manages to finish any action. I mean, it's basic logic, you are aiming, you just need to press the trigger, but the guy can freely aim and shoot at you before you're able to press this trigger. Or just move behind a wall so you can't shoot at him. Or teleport away, or close the door, whatever.

Eye-hand coordination reaction time for a normal human is around 200-300ms. For an experienced adventurer in a tense situation, it should be under 200ms. There is absolutely nothing you can do in such a short notice. Starfinder ready action are just illogical, and should be rewritten.

Pathfinder ready actions were quite fine by the way...


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

200 posts on readied actions just proves that ready actions are just bugged in Starfinder.

I quite love the fact that you can't aim at someone and tell him to drop his weapon or you shoot, and actually shoot before he manages to finish any action. I mean, it's basic logic, you are aiming, you just need to press the trigger, but the guy can freely aim and shoot at you before you're able to press this trigger. Or just move behind a wall so you can't shoot at him. Or teleport away, or close the door, whatever.

Eye-hand coordination reaction time for a normal human is around 200-300ms. For an experienced adventurer in a tense situation, it should be under 200ms. There is absolutely nothing you can do in such a short notice. Starfinder ready action are just illogical, and should be rewritten.

Pathfinder ready actions were quite fine by the way...

This

1- First round of Combat, not a readied action scenario. Simple Roll initiative and see who acts first.

2 - Target is unarmed and you have your gun aimed at him. You set the trigger action to be his move action being: he draws his weapon. Then your shoot first.

3 - your readied action to shoot target and the trigger being: target moves (target tries to duck for cover, or some other move action), you shoot first.

4 - your readied action is to shoot the target. The trigger is he shoots at you. He shoots first, you second.

OR

YES, you can create a scenario where where you get to shoot first, but it is with a delayed action!

5 - You delay your turn until before your target, have combat banter saying DROP IT OR I SHOOT! Your target can drop his weapon as a free action. If he doesn’t you shoot.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:
1- First round of Combat, not a readied action scenario. Simple Roll initiative and see who acts first.

Not the case I describe. I obviously speak of an in combat situation, otherwise I could hardly use combat actions.

Nimor Starseeker wrote:
2 - Target is unarmed and you have your gun aimed at him. You set the trigger action to be his move action being: he draws his weapon. Then your shoot first.

It's not the case I describe. He can't drop a weapon if he's unarmed.

Nimor Starseeker wrote:
3 - your readied action to shoot target and the trigger being: target moves (target tries to duck for cover, or some other move action), you shoot first.

No, you shoot after. Rules say that your shoot goes after the triggering event, so the guy manages to duck or move (at least 5ft.).

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

5 - You delay your turn until before your target, have combat banter saying DROP IT OR I SHOOT! Your target can drop his weapon as a free action. If he doesn’t you shoot.

No, you can't take free actions on someone else's turn.

Nimor Starseeker wrote:
4 - your readied action is to shoot the target. The trigger is he shoots at you. He shoots first, you second.

You're right, that's all my point, you can't shoot someone if he doesn't drop his gun :-D


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Page 249 CRB
You can drop something any time without action.

Drop an Item
You can drop any item or items that you’re holding into your square or into an adjacent square at any time without spending any actions.


Sorry, I didn't know this one.
Ok, I used the exact bad example, as dropping something is nearly the only action you can perform out of your round :-D

Anyway, won't change my point of view, if instead of drop your weapon I ask him to drop prone, or put his hands behind his head, we would be back to square one, it's not possible per the rules.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

DRAWS WEAPON, not DROP.

Nimor Starseeker wrote:
2 - Target is unarmed and you have your gun aimed at him. You set the trigger action to be his move action being: he draws his weapon. Then your shoot first.

SuperBidi wrote:
It's not the case I describe. He can't drop a weapon if he's unarmed.

My response.
This still counts, but it’s scenario 5 that really makes it happen.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:


This still counts, but it’s scenario 5 that really makes it happen.

Yeah, I didn't know there was a special case for dropping an item. But if instead of asking him to drop his weapon I asked him to drop prone, my example would still be valid: I just can't aim at someone, put my finger on the trigger and shoot before he does anything from shooting me, casting a spell, or what the hell he wants to do. This is just illogical when you consider the duration of both actions. And when a rule creates such illogical situations when you are using it properly, I feel there's an issue.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

Sorry, I didn't know this one.

Ok, I used the exact bad example, as dropping something is nearly the only action you can perform out of your round :-D

Anyway, won't change my point of view, if instead of drop your weapon I ask him to drop prone, or put his hands behind his head, we would be back to square one, it's not possible per the rules.

You specifically wanted a situation where you could aim your gun at someone and tell them to drop their weapon or you shoot, where you get to act first, not them.

I have now shown you that it is possible and not only is it possible, it is by the rules.

No, they don't get the action to drop prone, but you can still make it so: You combat banter tell them to submit (forgo) their saving throw against a combat manuever such as a trip attack or a disarm.

As for putting your hands behind your head, this is not a game mechanics move action such as moving into a different square or drawing a weapon. It is a narrative/flavourful event that has not effect as far as I can see.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:


This still counts, but it’s scenario 5 that really makes it happen.
Yeah, I didn't know there was a special case for dropping an item. But if instead of asking him to drop his weapon I asked him to drop prone, my example would still be valid: I just can't aim at someone, put my finger on the trigger and shoot before he does anything from shooting me, casting a spell, or what the hell he wants to do. This is just illogical when you consider the duration of both actions. And when a rule creates such illogical situations when you are using it properly, I feel there's an issue.

When it comes to illogical duration's of actions keep in mind that when 4 players and 4 monsters are taking turns in combat, all of their turns one after another, but it all happens at the same time -the 6 seconds time frame that is a combat round. It is a little illogical, because in real life, we might not be taking turns turns to shoot at our enemy, we would more likely literally be shooting at our enemy at the same time. I don't think we should think to seriously about it- but if it really feels odd, you can mask it with narrative/storytelling. This is a world of magic and fantasy, we should not be bound to much to logic.


I will reformulate what I say.

Let's take the example of the end of a fight. All enemies are down but one. You expect him to surrender, as you are a good or neutral character and don't take pleasure into killing people. But you don't want to take risks.
In real life, you would say "Hold still!" while pointing your gun at him, ready to fire, slowly moving towards him. And in real life, unless something unexpected happens, the guy won't be able to perform any action before you take your shot. And, of course, you won't take your shot if the guy stays still.

With Starfinder, tell me how I can reproduce this situation.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:


When it comes to illogical duration's of actions keep in mind that when 4 players and 4 monsters are taking turns in combat, all of their turns one after another, but it all happens at the same time -the 6 seconds time frame that is a combat round. It is a little illogical, because in real life, we might not be taking turns turns to shoot at our enemy, we would more likely literally be shooting at our enemy at the same time. I don't think we should think to seriously about it- but if it really feels odd, you can mask it with narrative/storytelling. This is a world of magic and fantasy, we should not be bound to much to logic.

We are speaking at the same time! Wait for your initiative!

Yeah, maybe you are right. In my opinion, it makes ready useless. If my action happens after the enemy one, then I can just delay, as I'll have my full round and the ability to use whatever action I want instead of just a standard action that I need to prepare beforehand. But, after all, ready is not that important.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

I will reformulate what I say.

Let's take the example of the end of a fight. All enemies are down but one. You expect him to surrender, as you are a good or neutral character and don't take pleasure into killing people. But you don't want to take risks.
In real life, you would say "Hold still!" while pointing your gun at him, ready to fire, slowly moving towards him. And in real life, unless something unexpected happens, the guy won't be able to perform any action before you take your shot. And, of course, you won't take your shot if the guy stays still.

With Starfinder, tell me how I can reproduce this situation.

This is the perfect role play opportunity for the target to try and bluff your characters in the combat banter.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:
This is the perfect role play opportunity for the target to try and bluff your characters in the combat banter.

That's my point: Without anything unexpected, you expect to shoot before the guy.

Also, I strongly discourage you to use combat banter when a cop asks you to hold still ;)


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
This is the perfect role play opportunity for the target to try and bluff your characters in the combat banter.

That's my point: Without anything unexpected, you expect to shoot before the guy.

Also, I strongly discourage you to use combat banter when a cop asks you to hold still ;)

Sound advice! (Gave me a good laugh there). Will denfinetly avoid combat banter with the cops! : )

I love this situation, because this builds up to an epic scene where you have your gun pointed at the villain, you tell him to drop his gun. If he does not drop it- you shoot. As a GM I would have the villain drop it on your turn, because it’s a free action. You should not have to wait.

If you want the villain to submit or forgo some kind of saving throw then he gets to try to bluff you if he is going to try to lie. It’s still your turn and you have to sense motive. If you fail your sense motive, you might be killing a submitting target or that target attacks you your next turn.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Yeah, maybe you are right. In my opinion, it makes ready useless. If my action happens after the enemy one, then I can just delay, as I'll have my full round and the ability to use whatever action I want instead of just a standard action that I need to prepare beforehand. But, after all, ready is not that important.

They aren't quite useless, so much as corner cases. Outside of specific circumstances, such as counterspelling, moving before readying, or readying a defensive action, it tends to be better to delay instead.

I think it's a consequence of removing concentration, but attempting to let casters still cast without a mook with a laser pistol disrupting everything they try to do.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:
If you want the villain to submit or forgo some kind of saving throw then he gets to try to bluff you if he is going to try to lie. It’s still your turn and you have to sense motive. If you fail your sense motive, you might be killing a submitting target or that target attacks you your next turn.

Very tense situation.

Just one advice (player advice of having been in this situation and having been frustrated by the DM's way of handling it): If the player doesn't make the sense motive check, don't tell him anything. I got my DM considering that a failed check was my fighter trusting the vilain, and thus not killing him while he was bluffing me. I hated it. If he had just said: "He starts talking, and you don't manage to know if he tries to bluff you", I would have killed him. And loved it, as my fighter would have kept thinking that, maybe, he had killed a submitting guy.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
yukongil wrote:

realistically Hypothesis 1 is correct; as it is virtually impossible to react to a single action before it occurs. Example; if two dudes have guns pointed at each other, Mexican Stand-off style, the one waiting to shoot the other if he fires is just going to end up shot, he's not going to be able to react to the trigger-pull with his own trigger-pull.

If it gets to that point, Readied Actions are useless. And since we can infer that spellcasting uses as much time as that trigger-pull, there is no way to counter the spell once the motion has begun.

In both cases you need an event/trigger proceeding the attack to ready against. IE; he goes for his gun, he takes aim, he reaches for a component in his pouch, etc...

My 2 Credits

For a mexican standoff, all you need to do is have each player roll initiative to see who shoots first.

that's not what a mexican standoff is. Its a situation where each side is waiting for the other to act, not see who is faster. Rulewise it's both side readying actions to shoot the other one if they shoot, until someone breaks the stalemate and just declares an attack...and then depending on what kind of movie you're in, it's either a bloodbath or a comedic bloodbath.

Quote:
Readying an action to shoot your target if he shoots at you will always resolve in him acting first. The triggering event will never be: he goes for his gun or takes aim or reaches for his pouch- The triggering event is his action to make a ranged attack..

it can certainly be "when he draws a weapon", the other two are the only logical ways for the RAW to work.

Quote:
We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.

if we don't, then the readied action is fundamentally useless. Also, what is the harm? I beat the guy on Initiative, I can just shoot him then, but instead I ready an action to shoot him when he does something. Shouldn't the fact that I won initiative count? The end result is them getting shot, what does it matter when exactly I do it?

For spellcasters maybe losing their spell, well that's just going to have to be one of the balancing factors for the power of their spells.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Readying an action to shoot your target if he shoots at you will always resolve in him acting first. The triggering event will never be: he goes for his gun or takes aim or reaches for his pouch- The triggering event is his action to make a ranged attack..
it can certainly be "when he draws a weapon", the other two are the only logical ways for the RAW to work.

I was saying when the trigger is set to: target makes a ranged attack at you, will always resolve in him shooting first.
Yes, you are correct, that when the trigger is set to the move action, such as target draws weapon, you can shoot first.
I did use this example earlier as well.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
yukongil wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
yukongil wrote:

realistically Hypothesis 1 is correct; as it is virtually impossible to react to a single action before it occurs. Example; if two dudes have guns pointed at each other, Mexican Stand-off style, the one waiting to shoot the other if he fires is just going to end up shot, he's not going to be able to react to the trigger-pull with his own trigger-pull.

If it gets to that point, Readied Actions are useless. And since we can infer that spellcasting uses as much time as that trigger-pull, there is no way to counter the spell once the motion has begun.

In both cases you need an event/trigger proceeding the attack to ready against. IE; he goes for his gun, he takes aim, he reaches for a component in his pouch, etc...

My 2 Credits

For a mexican standoff, all you need to do is have each player roll initiative to see who shoots first.

that's not what a mexican standoff is. Its a situation where each side is waiting for the other to act, not see who is faster. Rulewise it's both side readying actions to shoot the other one if they shoot, until someone breaks the stalemate and just declares an attack...and then depending on what kind of movie you're in, it's either a bloodbath or a comedic bloodbath.

Quote:
Readying an action to shoot your target if he shoots at you will always resolve in him acting first. The triggering event will never be: he goes for his gun or takes aim or reaches for his pouch- The triggering event is his action to make a ranged attack..

it can certainly be "when he draws a weapon", the other two are the only logical ways for the RAW to work.

Quote:
We do not need to add triggering events that are not actions from the action list.
if we don't, then the readied action is fundamentally useless. Also, what is the harm? I beat the guy on Initiative, I can just shoot him then, but instead I ready an action to shoot him when he does something. Shouldn't the fact that I won initiative count? The...

Thanks for pointing that out: The Mexican stand-off- either way you end up with a blood-bath, Everyone rolling initiative is probably the best way of playing that. Your character could be the one deciding: Should I shoot, or wait? Two groups with monsters and players both readying actions against each other could end up in some kind of chained readied action silliness.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake, setting the ready action to: shoot the target and the trigger event/action to: drawing his weapon, will indeed let you shoot first. (Not sure how often this one would get used, but it it could happen that your target has a grenade that he wants to draw, so there are those possibilities.)

Could you give me an example of what the triggering events that are not actions are? Thanks in advance.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Could you give me an example of what the triggering events that are not actions are? Thanks in advance.

Movement from square 2 to square 3. If the triggering action were the movement you'd have to wait till they stopped.


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SuperBidi wrote:
200 posts on readied actions just proves that ready actions are just bugged in Starfinder.

Given the general level of agreement I dont think it's fair to say it s the rules


isn't that what this discussion is about? Are non-codified actions fair game for triggering actions?

example; Bad Guy has his weapon but is looking at Ally 1, Good Guy 1 wants to ready an action that when Bad Guy swings his weapon his way, he shoots him.

Now there is no set action term or cost for targeting someone, should it be fair game for triggering Good Guy 1's readied action, or does Bad Guy get to turn and fire before Good Guy 1 can react?

I'm in the camp where that is fair game for a triggering action, otherwise it's silly and makes readied actions nigh-useless.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Movement from square 2 to square 3. If the triggering action were the movement you'd have to wait till they stopped.

The issue is: Nothing states you can ready an action on a subaction. Using it on a shooting subaction is clearly against RAI. So why would it be possible on a moving subaction?


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The only thing made useless is the concept of doing something offensive to a target before it does something offensive.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the array of defensive actions you could be taking before your target acts.

And I’ve yet to see anyone mention the overwatch possibilities, where you ready an action to shoot if a hostile opens that door over there, or comes around the corner from a direction your team hasn’t looked in on yet.

Or even super specific niche things. “If I come under laser fire, I drop this smoke grenade at my feet.” “I activate my environmental protection if (insert action that changes the environment here.)”

It truly boggles my mind that anyone would call readied actions useless because of 2 things you can’t do with them while not giving any thought to the many things that can be done.


yukongil wrote:

isn't that what this discussion is about? Are non-codified actions fair game for triggering actions?

example; Bad Guy has his weapon but is looking at Ally 1, Good Guy 1 wants to ready an action that when Bad Guy swings his weapon his way, he shoots him.

It's impossible for Bad Guy to look at Ally 1 in particular, he's always looking at all things in all directions with equal attention. He also can't point his weapon in a particular direction, he can only shoot specific creatures or squares as part of an action.


Pantshandshake wrote:

The only thing made useless is the concept of doing something offensive to a target before it does something offensive.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the array of defensive actions you could be taking before your target acts.

And I’ve yet to see anyone mention the overwatch possibilities, where you ready an action to shoot if a hostile opens that door over there, or comes around the corner from a direction your team hasn’t looked in on yet.

Or even super specific niche things. “If I come under laser fire, I drop this smoke grenade at my feet.” “I activate my environmental protection if (insert action that changes the environment here.)”

It truly boggles my mind that anyone would call readied actions useless because of 2 things you can’t do with them while not giving any thought to the many things that can be done.

probably because those "2" things are pretty big deals, and are pretty standard in any other roleplaying game, or any other form of media.

or nobody is bringing up defensive actions, because defensive actions take place before hand, whereas offensive do not for some arcane reason, so there is not a problem to discuss.


Xenocrat wrote:
yukongil wrote:

isn't that what this discussion is about? Are non-codified actions fair game for triggering actions?

example; Bad Guy has his weapon but is looking at Ally 1, Good Guy 1 wants to ready an action that when Bad Guy swings his weapon his way, he shoots him.

It's impossible for Bad Guy to look at Ally 1 in particular, he's always looking at all things in all directions with equal attention. He also can't point his weapon in a particular direction, he can only shoot specific creatures or squares as part of an action.

ah yes, I forgot!


SuperBidi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Movement from square 2 to square 3. If the triggering action were the movement you'd have to wait till they stopped.
The issue is: Nothing states you can ready an action on a subaction. Using it on a shooting subaction is clearly against RAI. So why would it be possible on a moving subaction?

A few reasons.

RAW

a certain trigger occurs by using a standard action.

Decide on a .. trigger.

when the trigger happens.

the event that triggered it

The action you're going to take in response is regularly called an action. The triggering event is NOT. So why would the game use a completely different term if the triggering event were supposed to be the completion of a [game term action] ?

RAI

So what constitutes a legitimate triggering event?

If you cannot declare a triggering event to act on ANY sub actions offensive readies become completely useless, and thus probably aren't RAI.

If you can declare a triggering event to act on ANY sub action you can think of then the very important distinction between an offenseive and defensive reaction goes away completely, probably not raw either.

Movement is also the only action we have that we even know IS subdivided. Spellcasting doesnt have "reach for mana, do the calculus, visualize the manifestation, actualize the manifestation" phases or anything similar as far as divisible phases. There's casting, there's not casting.

Movement not only has those subdivisions (square 1 through 6 in order), but movement is regularly interrupted on those subdivisions with attacks of opportunity. You get a whack of opportunity to the face on a particular square, not just at some generic point during your move.

So the counter question is, why do you think that something needs to be an action to be a triggering event?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
yukongil wrote:
Pantshandshake wrote:

The only thing made useless is the concept of doing something offensive to a target before it does something offensive.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the array of defensive actions you could be taking before your target acts.

And I’ve yet to see anyone mention the overwatch possibilities, where you ready an action to shoot if a hostile opens that door over there, or comes around the corner from a direction your team hasn’t looked in on yet.

Or even super specific niche things. “If I come under laser fire, I drop this smoke grenade at my feet.” “I activate my environmental protection if (insert action that changes the environment here.)”

It truly boggles my mind that anyone would call readied actions useless because of 2 things you can’t do with them while not giving any thought to the many things that can be done.

probably because those "2" things are pretty big deals, and are pretty standard in any other roleplaying game, or any other form of media.

or nobody is bringing up defensive actions, because defensive actions take place before hand, whereas offensive do not for some arcane reason, so there is not a problem to discuss.

I have suspected since I got my hands on the CRB, and do still suspect, that the "arcane reason" for that rule change was to make casters playable in a world where everyone has a ranged attack, and single attacks have very high accuracy. I think that all of the other things that you can't do with a readied action in Starfinder are collateral damage of a rule made to prevent frequent spell interruption.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

A few reasons.

RAW

a certain trigger occurs by using a standard action.

Decide on a .. trigger.

when the trigger happens.

the event that triggered it

The action you're going to take in response is regularly called an action. The triggering event is NOT. So why would the game use a completely different term if the triggering event were supposed to be the completion of a [game term action] ?

RAI

So what constitutes a legitimate triggering event?

If you cannot declare a triggering event to act on ANY sub actions offensive readies become completely useless, and thus probably aren't RAI.

If you can declare a triggering event to act on ANY sub action you can think of then the very important distinction between an offenseive and defensive reaction goes away completely, probably not raw either.

Movement is also the only action we have that we even know IS subdivided. Spellcasting doesnt have "reach for mana, do the calculus, visualize the manifestation, actualize the manifestation" phases or anything similar as far as divisible phases. There's casting, there's not casting.

Movement not only has those subdivisions (square 1 through 6 in order), but movement is regularly interrupted on those subdivisions with attacks of opportunity. You get a whack of opportunity to the face on a particular square, not just at some generic point during your move.

So the counter question is, why do you think that something needs to be an action to be a triggering event?

Well stated BNW.

It's entirely possible that a standard action is divisible, we simply have more concrete examples for movement from the CRB.

This is my suggestions to players and GM's.

Apply the rules as written. For all action types: movement, standard, full, and swift (even reactions). Allow that all actions are divisible in some way (composed of many events which qualify as possible triggers). It can be in general terms such as 'begins to cast', 'is casting', 'has cast'. Or you can require very specifically worded triggers such as 'touches the trigger', aims at an ally', 'hops on one leg' etc.. If you feel, as a GM, the intended readied action would in some way disrupt, or unbalance, the turn of your NPC's or monsters. Rule in a creative way so that the triggering event doesn't occur in a recognizable way to your player.

If my Vesk soldier decided to ready an action to shoot an enemy he feels could be a potential spell caster, and my GM had a spell lined up which required the players to fail the roll (my GM just did this last session with a Silver Dragon's paralyzing breath) and Brosni set the readied action as "begins to cast". It would be entirely feasible that you could ask.. well.. how would he know the caster is casting a spell? What would happen if my GM simply said on the Dragons' turn. Roll a Mysticism check Brosni. The GM would use this roll to determine if Brosni recognizes that the trigger has occurred. If Brosni rolls a natural 20, good!! EXCELLENT. He was able to intuit in some gut soldier feeling that he was casting. Since he set the DC to 25, and my character has an 8 intelligence.. well.. you see where I am going.

This, to me, seems the fairest way to apply the rules as written without the pitfall of making exceptions so that the readied action works in some instances and not in others.

THoughts?


HammerJack wrote:
yukongil wrote:
Pantshandshake wrote:

The only thing made useless is the concept of doing something offensive to a target before it does something offensive.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the array of defensive actions you could be taking before your target acts.

And I’ve yet to see anyone mention the overwatch possibilities, where you ready an action to shoot if a hostile opens that door over there, or comes around the corner from a direction your team hasn’t looked in on yet.

Or even super specific niche things. “If I come under laser fire, I drop this smoke grenade at my feet.” “I activate my environmental protection if (insert action that changes the environment here.)”

It truly boggles my mind that anyone would call readied actions useless because of 2 things you can’t do with them while not giving any thought to the many things that can be done.

probably because those "2" things are pretty big deals, and are pretty standard in any other roleplaying game, or any other form of media.

or nobody is bringing up defensive actions, because defensive actions take place before hand, whereas offensive do not for some arcane reason, so there is not a problem to discuss.

I have suspected since I got my hands on the CRB, and do still suspect, that the "arcane reason" for that rule change was to make casters playable in a world where everyone has a ranged attack, and single attacks have very high accuracy. I think that all of the other things that you can't do with a readied action in Starfinder are collateral damage of a rule made to prevent frequent spell interruption.

I think the rule was written to ALLOW spell interruption. Not prevent it.

The reasoning is as follows:

1). If readied actions didn't exist at all, no spell with a casting time of a standard action or reaction could be interrupted. Not even with an AoO (see Owen's original post). The only way to interrupt a spell with a standard action casting time would be with a Dispel Magic spell.

2). If the developers did not intend for players to be able to act on another players turn, the reaction action would have MANY more entries with corresponding rules and examples. (Reactions open the possibility to act on another creatures turn well enough.)

3). Additional game entries allude to this being the intent due to their wording.

The reason I think that the players have interpreted this readied action improperly is that there is a general consensus among experienced players that spell casting in this game is poorly implemented and suffers from quite a few problems. (Ridiculously high opponent saves, compressed spell lists, fewer spell choices, homogenized casting methodologies across classes, spell selection is weak, no way to recover a defining resource without resting for a long time, etc..) By allowing foes to interrupt a standard action cast time spell simply makes spell casting worse for the player experience.

It's a sad day when a soldier can just pick up a weapon that has the same effect as a lightning bolt.. and can 'cast' it every turn. And reload it without waiting till the next day. (Notice how the designers limited this by making every blast, explode, and line weapon unwieldy... they knew what was up!!)

I sympathize with all players in this regard. I really do. However, I believe it was the intent of the developers to allow such spells to be interrupted and simply didn't realize the additional negative impact it would have to spell casting in the game.

As I stated earlier, if they introduced a way to alleviate the deepest problem of losing the spell slot, or allowed a way for the caster to overcome the damage, it would be far more balanced.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I was referring specifically to this rule:

"If your readied action is purely defensive, such as choosing the total defense action if a foe you are facing shoots at you, it occurs just before the event that triggered it. If the readied action is not a purely defensive action, such as shooting a foe if he shoots at you, it takes place immediately after the triggering event. If you come to your next turn and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again)."

I don't understand how creating that rule could be a change intended to allow spell interruption, when just using the same system as PF, where all readied actions go before would do the trick.


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It seems obvious based on Owen's post that readied actions are not intended to disrupt spellcasting, except for counterspelling. Whether the actual RAW written support that, RAI seems obvious.

Maygar5 wrote:
(see Owen's original post)

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