Does a +5 Weapon Overcome Regeneration / Alignment?


Rules Questions


A +5 weapon overcomes cold iron/silver DR, adamantine DR, and good/evil/lawful/chaotic DR...but does it stop something like regeneration 10 (lawful)?


No.

Enhancement bonuses overcome DR, but they do not stop regeneration.


Nope.


Okay. So besides Align Weapon and Axiomatic Weapons, what else would overcome lawful regeneration?


Bestiary page 299 wrote:
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

Based on this the only one you missed is aligned creatures. The easiest way to take advantage of that would be summon monster spells to get an archon, or devil, or whatever.


Lost In Limbo wrote:
Quote:
A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
Based on this the only one you missed is aligned creatures. The easiest way to take advantage of that would be summon monster spells to get an archon, or devil, or whatever.

Technically that only says damage reduction, not regeneration, no?


Damage from spells with [lawful].


Yeah, technically hmmm. My table has just always run it that if a creature has an alignment subtype then there attacks count as that alignment for all purposes.

This is where PF2 tagging comes in useful. You can just say those attacks have the lawful tag and then there's no confusion about what counts for what when.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lost In Limbo wrote:

Yeah, technically hmmm. My table has just always run it that if a creature has an alignment subtype then there attacks count as that alignment for all purposes.

This is where PF2 tagging comes in useful. You can just say those attacks have the lawful tag and then there's no confusion about what counts for what when.

It depends on the creature type:

Bestiary wrote:

A devil’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it

wields, are treated as lawful and evil for the purpose of
resolving damage reduction.

@Balkoth

That kind of regeneration can be bypassed by aligned weapons (holy, unholy, axiomatic, anarchic), some class ability that allows them to add an alignment to their weapon/natural attacks damage, death magic, disintegration, death by starvation, drowning and so on (the efficacy of the different method varies with the target, outsiders don't need to eat or breathe).


Diego Rossi wrote:
some class ability that allows them to add an alignment to their weapon/natural attacks damage

Like what? Even a Monk just says

"At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

Not regeneration. Just damage reduction.

Diego Rossi wrote:
death magic, disintegration

Er, regeneration specifically says

"Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)."

Exceptions are noted as:

"Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."

At least most death magic (like Finger of Death) and Disintegration deal hit point damage, so how would that kill them?


Balkoth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
some class ability that allows them to add an alignment to their weapon/natural attacks damage

Like what? Even a Monk just says

"At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

Not regeneration. Just damage reduction.

Diego Rossi wrote:
death magic, disintegration

Er, regeneration specifically says

"Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)."

Exceptions are noted as:

"Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."

At least most death magic (like Finger of Death) and Disintegration deal hit point damage, so how would that kill them?

generally people play that things that bypass alignment based damage reduction also shut off the associated regeneration. If you are going to go by RAW, obviously there isn’t anything that can suppress alignment regeneration, but no one plays that way. RAI, aligned weapons should shut down regeration.

Scarab Sages

It's trickier when talking about enhancement bonuses, though. A +4 overcomes DR/Adamantine, for example, but is not Adamantine, and it doesn't ignore hardness.

But looking at something like the Warpriest Law Blessing... that should probably count for Regeneration, even though it doesn't directly say it makes the weapon law aligned.

EDIT: I would probably let anything that specifically counts as "Lawful" to overcome DR count for stopping regeneration. Enhancement bonuses don't overcome a specific alignment, just alignment DR in general. So I don't think that would count as the weapon being every alignment for other reasons.

A Monk, however, should probably count as Lawful when they get that ability on their unarmed strikes. But all of that is RAI/interpretation.

EDIT EDIT: Though even that's not perfect, as it leaves Hellknights with Smite Chaos out, which also seems wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Class abilities:
- magus arcana Devote blade
- paladin weapon divine bond if he adds holy vs regeneration that can be stopped by good weapons

Regeneration and death magic:

Quote:

Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature’s descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Most examples of Death magic don't deal hit point of damage. Examples Power word kill, green ray of the prysmatic spray, symbol of death.

Poison work, too, if it affects constitution.

Disintegrate:

Quote:

Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer

hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind
only a trace of fine dust.

Regeneration doesn't turn you back from "a trace of fine dust". You aren't breating, too. End result: dead.

Energy drain work perfectly, too.


What stops regeneration in a creature is listed in the description of the creature. The classic regenerating creature is a Troll, for example. It's Defense lists Regeneration 5 (Acid or Fire). The stuff listed in the parenthesis stops or prevents the Trolls regeneration. So if the creature is listed as Regeneration 10 (Lawful) then anything delivering Lawful damage will stop the regeneration. It gets a little muddy with some attacks such as Disintegrate because these days they do in fact do HP damage (2d6/level) when in prior editions they did not. I'm not as sure as Diego that being Disintegrated in fact prevents the target from regenerating or it wouldn't be necessary for it to specifically mention it in the text of the Tarrasque whose Regeneration has nothing in parenthesis and further specifically states nothing stops it. Death Magic which does HP damage also does not stop regeneration (maybe) unless specifically noted as doing so. For example both Destruction and Wail of the Banshee carry the death descriptor, but also do HP damage. Neither will bypass Regeneration (maybe). But by the same token why note in the Tarrasque's text "it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect." unless those are specific exceptions to the general rule? Energy Drain, however, doesn't do HP damage so it would bypass regeneration just fine.

Expect some table variation in home campaigns. Part of the issue stems I think from legacy issues. Things like Destruction and Disintegrate used to be save or die spells there was no hp/lvl damage inflicted.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Balkoth wrote:
At least most death magic (like Finger of Death) and Disintegration deal hit point damage, so how would that kill them?

Disintegration does a bit more than just deal hp damage.

If it reduces a target to 0 hp or less, it reduces them to dust. Being reduced to 0 hp is not typically lethal. What kills is the effect that turns the affected creature to dust.

A troll reduced to dust is no longer a troll, it is dust and dust does not have racial abilities, e.g. regeneration.


And I don't disagree, I was more pointing out that for some spells it gets a bit less than crystal clear. Disintegrate does do HP damage it just has a special effect attached if/when the target is reduced to 0 hp or less. Note that even if the target succeeds in the save if the resulting 5d6 damage reduces them to 0 hp or less they are still dust. The fact that it is a transmutation spell makes it more likely they turn into actual 'dust' and it is not merely fluff text describing a few million unconnected troll cells one of which would be the largest bit left.

The next question is what happens if you die if you fail the Fort save vs Destruction (or the 10d6)? Does unholy fire 'consume the remains utterly' and prevent regeneration working to heal you since your really gone (i.e. 'utterly') gone meaning there's nothing left for regeneration to kick in on? Or does the fact it is clearly based on hp damage done prevent this?

And then there's Wail which has no text describing anything special outside of potentially killing the target with the damage?

Then there's Implosion ...

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Does a +5 Weapon Overcome Regeneration / Alignment? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.