First of all, greetings everyone, i just joined the community.
Me and my group are starting (i'm not the GM, just a player) Hell's Rebels.
From what i've heard the CHA component is strong and relevant in this AP, so definitely it wont be a dump stat for me.
I'm accepting suggestions on what to play, ideas and advices of any kind, considering the following:
- Synthetist is banned
- Master Summoner is banned
- Unchained Rogue is available only to Dip, not the full class (we use old one, any explanation on those two is appreciated, like what old one is really that bad compared to unchained one?)
- Starting level 1, 20 points
Thanks in advance!! :)
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If you want to play a Bard, this is a great AP for it.
If you want to play a rogue-like character, consider the Archaeologist Bard or the Investigator instead, IMHO.
If you want to play a Paladin, check with your GM first. A Paladin of Abadar might not work very well, for example.
If you haven't already, download the free Hells Rebels Players Guide.
EDIT: Frontal assaults don't always work very well in this AP, so avoid a character concept that won't look for other approaches.
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Also this is a great AP to play a Vigilante in, any Vigilante (well, not the Brute...). Since you'll be spending the majority of your time in Kintargo, Renown and everything that depends on it will apply. It's also really thematic.
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Ideas of what your fellow players are doing could go a long way.
CHA is not a dump stat usually I find, but I'm a big follower of trying to keep everything at 10 if possible(Cause it just takes a few bad rolls to die to something that drains you). Can probably settle on keeping it at 10 and then buffing the needed skills as you see what is being used. That said I would probably avoid an "Int+2" class, or go human/favored bonus to fix that.
Basic Rogue is in a bad spot given it's rivals/spin offs. Outside of RP/backstory/personal taste there's little reason to pick Rogue vs Hunter, Slayer, Alchemist, Vigilante, or even Brawler. Outside of maybe skills but that's not enough. Unchained Rogue..., well it's better than base. It gives Dex to Damage so saves a feat, coughs up Debilitating Injury which boosts your Sneak Attack if you can pull it off, gives Unchained Skill bonuses which can maybe help keep up with spells(Maybe), and even gives a small upgrade to Trap Sense. You're all around better as Unchained Rogue than normal but probably aren't up to par with your peers in your role. But you'll have an easier time as Unchained Rogue. Werd that's only a dip.
Anyway without knowing more, couple ideas;
> Bard. Always good, has magic and skills to back it, not too shabby in combat and Songs are always good.
> Alchemist. Bombs, Extracts, Mutagen. Go ranged, support, or melee; it all depends on your group.
> Brawler. Worried about what feats to take. Don't worry, Brawler lets you use one for awhile, capping up to 3 feats which lets you pick out some different ones with your normal progression. Go tank with normal/combat and flex into damage, go full melee damage cannon, or even pick up Examplar as your Archetype to be a really hard hitting bard that can give Teamwork feats to others.
> Cavalier - Constable. Go normal attacker(Maybe reach) or full on grapple. Either way you can pass Teamwork feats with Squad Commander, and Quick Interrogator is a fitting ability for this AP.
Just a couple ideas I've floated in my head when looking to join up for this AP myself. But these are fast and loose ideas from someone that doesn't really crunch numbers. Mileage may vary and you'll have to do your own reading.
Thanks.
- I was honestly already looking at Bard, more in depth on Celebrity Archetype, because i find it attractive and nice flavoured (i'm just engaging a war in my brain to find the right "roleplay" imput... Celebrity of what type?)
- I can understand "Old Rogue" is to avoid for sure right?
- Paladin i knew there was something strange about it, i remember the GM saying that, so i avoided that class instantly.
- Vigilante is a class i never read with 100% focus, seems some kind of superhero-build-a-like class, without any superpower or magic, am i right? (For some aspects it remember me a lil bit the Factotum from D&D3.5)
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The Chelish Diva Bard archetype would certainly be thematic.
FWIW, I'm currently playing a Dawnflower Dervish Bard in this AP.
> Alchemist - Is there a way to change his main stat from INT to CHA maybe?
> Brawler - I love tanks, and we probably gonna need one that's sure, but:
a) Is there a way to use CON as primary stats and CHA as second (i mean if i can just focus on CON to leave enough points for "roleplay stats")?
b) Does race (still choosing) size represents a big advantage/disadvantage?
> Cavalier - Is a Cavalier without a mount viable? (it's an urban AP mostly, so unless i'm gonna play a small race mounting a medium creature, i can't imagine to have a large mount in every fight)
- Chelish Diva questions:
a) Isn't "sex" related (only female characters)?
b) Being a Chelish Celebrity i imagine not being a problem for the campaign itself, he could be Cheliaxian and well known and still work for mining the Chelish government and helping the rebellion right?
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Vigilante is a class i never read with 100% focus, seems some kind of superhero-build-a-like class, without any superpower or magic, am i right? (For some aspects it remember me a lil bit the Factotum from D&D3.5)
A bunch of the archetypes give you 6-level spellcasting for half your vigilante talents and your vigilante specialization (because the archetype effectively is your specialization). Cabalist casts off the Witch list, Magical Child casts off the Unchained Summoner list, Warlock casts as a Magus, Zealot casts as an Inquisitor.
Some of the non-casting archetypes are sorta magical- Agathiel lets you turn into animals, Wildsouls get animal powers like wings or web-shooters.
Basic idea of the class is that you have a secret identity, which is handy in a game where you might want to participate in polite society while at the same time being a key figure in the revolution, while letting very few people in on this. Rest of the chassis is pretty customizable, since most of what you get are social talents (on odd levels) and vigilante talents (on even ones.)
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- Chelish Diva questions:
a) Isn't "sex" related (only female characters)?
b) Being a Chelish Celebrity i imagine not being a problem for the campaign itself, he could be Cheliaxian and well known and still work for mining the Chelish government and helping the rebellion right?
a) I don't see any reason you couldn't be a male Chelish Diva.
b) You'd want to make sure you're in disguise when you're out on a mission (which is a good idea for other characters too).
- Vigilante combined with spellcasting seems more viable and more flavourful on the roleplay side, but why then on the guide i found linked on the forum i think just one or two shine, when the rest is considered "garbage"?
- That's nice then, probably disguise plays a big role in the campaign, that's why Vigilante feels a good choice aswell if casting some magic is a thing.
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Another thing I'll add: avoid relying heavily on dealing fire damage, since you might run into devils. :)
A bunch of the archetypes give you 6-level spellcasting for half your vigilante talents and your vigilante specialization (because the archetype effectively is your specialization). Cabalist casts off the Witch list, Magical Child casts off the Unchained Summoner list, Warlock casts as a Magus, Zealot casts as an Inquisitor.
Note that the Warlock uses the Wizard/Sorceror spell list (up to 6th lvl spells).
> Alchemist - Is there a way to change his main stat from INT to CHA maybe?
> Brawler - I love tanks, and we probably gonna need one that's sure, but:
a) Is there a way to use CON as primary stats and CHA as second (i mean if i can just focus on CON to leave enough points for "roleplay stats")?
b) Does race (still choosing) size represents a big advantage/disadvantage?> Cavalier - Is a Cavalier without a mount viable? (it's an urban AP mostly, so unless i'm gonna play a small race mounting a medium creature, i can't imagine to have a large mount in every fight)
Alchemist - No but there's a discovery that gives a flat +3 to Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate. Extracts can also help you if you pick up the right ones along with helping you be a stealth character. Interrogator could be a fun way to bypass CHA checks on some targets but require an attack and the ethical fallout of doing so might be something to worry about.
Brawler - A) Venomfist lowers your damage but gives a poison effect on your hits that scales with CON. Still need STR or DEX to hit but unless you want the skills, INT can stay at 10 as you count as having 13 for Combat Feats.
B) You'll want Big for STR build, DEX likes small. But small also needs reach or you'll take AoO and you'll have problems with Maneuvers possibly. Brawler's bonuses for Favored Class Bonuses are also kinda... meh.
Brawler Suggestion - Roll Human, favored class bonus Skills. With Human's Skilled and Skill Rank as your favored class bonus, you cap out at 6 per level with 10 Int. Pick up Toughness with the Human Feat if you want some extra HP, or just see if you can alternate between HP or Skill Rank per level. Grab a shield, get some good light armor, and just stand in front of your squishies or focus on Trips. Enemies can't fight well if they spend half their turn getting up and Brawlers can one handed Flurry. This changes based on Archetype, but base brawler you can be a surprising roadblock if done right.
Cavalier - I find Cavalier without mount is playable but this varies from game to game, so don't take it as the absolute truth when Cavalier unmounted is like around fighter's level. Maybe. However, Cavalier Constable gives up Mount anyway for Improved Unarmed attack, bonuses to disarm, grapple, and trip along with Perception, and the ability to grapple someone at the end of a Charge. Roll with Order of the Hammer to really knock some heads around(But only Non lethal damage) or Order of the Penitent to focus on grapple/disarms.
- Vigilante combined with spellcasting seems more viable and more flavourful on the roleplay side, but why then on the guide i found linked on the forum i think just one or two shine, when the rest is considered "garbage"?
Well, the Magical Child vigilante archetype is kinda bad because the unchained summoner list isn't very good and the only unique thing the archetype grants (the transformation sequence) later became available to all magical vigilantes, also Ultimate Wilderness made it so your familiar can no longer be a mauler, so avoid that one. Zealot is okay, but kind of compares poorly to a straight up Inquisitor in most campaigns (not necessarily Hell's Rebels). Cabalist and Warlock are a cut above because tattoo chamber is amazing, though some people have a problem with the Warlock since relying purely on mystic bolts to deal damage runs into problems if you aren't able to bypass DR (you will definitely want the talent which lets you make your bolts holy before 16th level), but the Warlock is better seen as a jack of many trades than a blaster IMO.
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Bard is an excellent choice for this AP. I recommend it 100%. My bard has been absolutely killing it on keeping up alliances with respect to political intrigues, seducing characters that are depicted as attractive in the artwork, and buffing his allies into becoming even more efficient murder-machines. Argent Voice is an archetype made for this campaign, so I suggest at least giving it a look.
I was playing a Rat Folk Urban Druid/Alchemist and was having a blast, until the AP group fell apart at lvl 4.
Just sayin' Druids are a viable choice (at least up to 4th level.)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Oracle yet.
As a Charisma based class, it's a strong contender for good bonuses to social skills. Yes, skill ranks are a bit tight, but it's still 4+Int, which isn't the absolute worst.
I'd recommend a Kitsune Oracle with Wrecking Mysticism and a double life build for absolute gobs of hit point output potential. You get a free human disguise, the perks of the spell-like abilities from your extra tails, two channel energy pools, and the shield other abilities to mitigate damage on your allies. Worship Pharasma and get the Fateful Channel feat to add free rerolls on your allies and they'll love you forever.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Oracle yet.
As a Charisma based class, it's a strong contender for good bonuses to social skills. Yes, skill ranks are a bit tight, but it's still 4+Int, which isn't the absolute worst.
I'd recommend a Kitsune Oracle with Wrecking Mysticism and a double life build for absolute gobs of hit point output potential. You get a free human disguise, the perks of the spell-like abilities from your extra tails, two channel energy pools, and the shield other abilities to mitigate damage on your allies. Worship Pharasma and get the Fateful Channel feat to add free rerolls on your allies and they'll love you forever.
I don't have experience with Oracle myself. There's also some people that might not like lugging a Curse around. I myself am one of them. I'd probably roll Witch or Shaman before Oracle.
That's not to say what you suggested is wrong just that's why I didn't suggest it. Maybe I should look into Oracle some more myself.
Thanks everyone!
- Warlock uses wizard/sorcerer spell list, casting like a Magus.
The problem of this class overall is that is "everything and anything", i mean everything the Vigilante can do, some other class can do it better and earlier :D i don't really get what's this for honestly.
- Alchemist sounds pretty interesting to me, but sadly CHA is probably one of his "usual dump stats".
- Then Brawler is not what i'm looking for: this campaign will be more focused on roleplay than fighting, and this class feels more like shining in fights.
- Nice one on the Cavalier, i'm going to read this class right now.
- Bard is surely one of my options, i was thinking about Demagogue/Celebrity or Chelish Diva like PCScipio suggested
- Oracle seems interesting aswell. lugging a curse around isn't a problem for me, i love roleplay so that can only add something to my character customization. I don't know that class in depth since i never played one.
The wrecking mysticism Oracle curse has to be one of the most forgiving of all curses. An extra 50% duration of any poison, sickened condition, or nauseated condition is quite a situational downside.
In exchange, you get full 9th level spontaneous Cleric list casting, a free kitsune tail every other level, and are the most powerful healing class in the game. I seriously recommend the double life Oracle for a charisma base character, it's a gem of a build. Great team player, everyone's favorite party member, excels at social skills and generally a heck of a lot of fun to play.
- Alchemist sounds pretty interesting to me, but sadly CHA is probably one of his "usual dump stats".- Then Brawler is not what i'm looking for: this campaign will be more focused on roleplay than fighting, and this class feels more like shining in fights.
- Nice one on the Cavalier, i'm going to read this class right now.
Alchemist - Yes CHA usually is the dump stat. It's stat focus usually looks like; INT, DEX, CON, STR, WIS, CHA. However if you don't go Mutagen or really Melee, you can probably increase your CHA, even favoring it over CON if your frontline looks good. The problem with Alchemist is you'll need to look for support to CHA skills rather than having it outright through extracts, discoveries or even Alchemical items. There's some discoveries that let you boost Mental stats or get extra dice to them, but that comes with Ability damage(WHY Paizo) so I can't fully suggest them.
Brawler - Does shine in fights yes. But because you can pick up to 3 feats to flex into, you have some more choices with your general feats now so you can maybe pick up a Skill based feat or two. Picking the Archetype Examplar gives you access to Inspire Courage who's usage is scaled off your CHA so there's that. If considering Brawler, I'd probably go - STR, CON, DEX/CHA, WIS, INT; as the focus. If only because INT doesn't need to be high due to Brawler’s Cunning. But Brawler doesn't have anything in their kit to favor skill based play I suppose so you'd have to find help through items, feats and traits. Still as mentioned, you can jump to 6 skill ranks as a Human Brawler so to me that's enough to get started in my opinion. Your mileage may vary based on your own playstyle and your table.
Cavalier - Yeah it doesn't get much attention. For good reason maybe but there's a couple ideas I've wanted to try. Anyway, Cavalier can be a Face of the group and some of their Order abilities run off CHA so you'd be fine if you can up it to say 12 or 14. However, Constable gives you Improved Unarmed as a bonus feat but no way of scaling. You'd have to look for that yourself or just go with normal weapon. It also loses Banner so any Favored Class Bonus for that goes into HP or Skill. Related idea, Daring Champion also gives up Mount abilities for Swashbuckler ones. Which benifit from CHA. Heck, Daring Champion can use CHA instead of INT for combat feats.
Cough, Or look into Swashbuckler yourself. A charming, daring, charismatic fighter that weaves in and out of combat with grace; yeah that might be a good fit for this AP.
But without knowing the rest of the group, kinda reaching the end of board suggestions here.
Amusingly our Hell's Rebels group was an Avenger Vigilante, a Spirit Guide Oracle, a Swarm Monger Druid, and a Bard whose archetype I forget (and an Eldritch Scion Magus who had to drop out.)
I was the Avenger Vigilante and I think it's a stronger choice for a "High Cha frontliner" in this AP since Brawlers, Cavaliers, and Swashbucklers don't actually get class features that help much with out of combat stuff whereas the Vigilante is drowning in them.
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I'll also add that the Message cantrip is very handy for coordinating stealth operations. I've gotten a lot of use out of it so far.
A bit late to the thread, but this is an AP with a lot of downtime. So magic item crafting will be even better than usual. And when you do adventure, it’s mostly small maps with only a few enemies, so classes that can do a lot in a short time are better off.
I can’t remember the details, but the rebellion management favors having a party with a variety of high stats. So, you don’t want everyone to be charisma based. Having an intelligence based wizard or a wisdom based shaman could also be very helpful. I’m not saying you should dump charisma, but only one party member really needs to focus on it.
As always, what the rest of the party is playing can really effect what’s good too. For instance, having a bard song can really boost the power of summoning.
Thanks everyone as always, i appreciate your help so much!
About Vigilante i can't really understand how do you handle the dual identity, do you have some tips?
Swashbuckler seems an interesting class, the only thing i fear the most on those is playing without any magic (i'm used to casters).
Now recently i spoke with one of the party members and he asked me if we could play a small race together.
Even if i've not decided yet on what to do, i'm wondering if something like this is a thing:
a small race PC that can become very tanky (being that already or using magic or some other stuff like shapechanging?) still keeping in mind that social skills and CHA are important. Does something like that exist?
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Check out my Halfling Dawnflower Dervish Bard Hells Rebel character. She's plenty tanky (Mirror Image at 4th lvl); later on, using Meditative Whirl, she'll be able to recast Mirror Image and heal herself in the same round. She's also the party striker, although that's more a reflection of our lowish damage output.
About Vigilante i can't really understand how do you handle the dual identity, do you have some tips?
So the first thing to understand is that you can use (pretty much) any of your vigilante talents while in your social identity- because Bruce Wayne does not forget his martial arts training when he's not in the bat suit. However, you can't use all of your social talents in your vigilante identity: because everybody knows Bruce Wayne is rich and powerful, but people don't think that way about Batman.
So nothing keeps you from just running around in your social identity and doing vigilante stuff except for the fact that your secret identity is going to stop being a secret sooner than later (you have to make disguise checks without your +20 bonus else people start to suspect something is up.)
A good reason Hell's Rebels is a good AP for a vigilante (in addition to it being a largely urban campaign) is that it tends to do a good job signposting "which identity should you attend this sequence in" since "beat up some kidnappers" is a job for Batman but "go to a fancy dress party" is not. While certainly it's possible for a fancy party to culminate in violence, by the time this becomes a realistic threat you should have access to Quick Change, so you just need 1 round when no one is looking at you to switch identities.
But some specific considerations is that you should let the rest of the party in on your secret, as you are confederates in a revolution you are in this together. Early on there's a scene in which the PCs take the initiative for freeing Kintargo, and this is a good time to do it. Key NPCs in the Silver Ravens can be in on the secret or not as is appropriate. But, because everyone in the party would want to have a secret identity that lets them operate with minimal scrutiny some of the time, you should have in your backstory some justification for why it's really important you not get found out (e.g. "Aurora Aulorian is a disaffected second child of a Chellish noble house who already ran away from home once and was unhappily dragged back to Kintargo, Alan Argent is a dashing figure of the revolution concocted by Aurora to get out from noble scrutiny and to resolve some personal issues.)
Quick change seems a nice fix to that problem, but:
1) It's level 7+ only
2) How do you explain to your party what your PC is doing exactly? 1 round was there, the other a superhero shows in
For the party composition i had some update, i'll list what could it be:
-Oracle
-Bard
-Witch
-Monk
2) How do you explain to your party what your PC is doing exactly? 1 round was there, the other a superhero shows in
I figure that's why you let everybody in the party in on the secret (I mean Batman and Superman call each other Bruce and Clark when on the Watchtower), and ask them to help you keep it a secret. Also, you don't need to be a literal superhero with a superhero name, you can just be two different people (think "le Comte de Monte-Cristo", the Count is just "a person who is not Edmund Dantès".)
It helps if you're the one setting up the ambush not the one getting ambushed, but you're a small insurrection up against a superior force so that should be the norm.
Also, if none of the baddies who ambush you survive the encounter, they aren't going to be spilling the beans.
Does that bard count you? That group composition doesn’t really favor bard song. You might want to go with the archaeologist archetype, in that case.
Oracles can be pretty effective melee combatants with the right build/mystery (Battle, Metal, and Ascetic come to mind) too.
Obiouvsly not, i'm still choosing what to do :D!
Yeah i mean in case you should fight when "not ready to", changing from Bruce to Batman takes time..
Well, if Bruce is at a party and it's attacked by Ninja or whatever, he can still punch one out and make a quip about how "oh, I was a boxing champion at Yale, guess I still got it" and people will probably buy it because nobody follows Ivy League sports, let alone college boxing.
If you use a vigilante talent in social mode, you get to make a disguise check to similarly make no one suspicious (just without your +20 bonus) so if your disguise score is high (and it should be) it's not too dangerous as long as you don't start doing this in front of crowds. Also failing the check is not "they find out your secret identity" it's "they suspect something is up."
But before playing a Vigilante, it's probably worth discussing with the GM "how protective, exactly, should I be about my secret identity."