Zen Archer Monk 4 / Inquisitor 6 Vs Pure Inquisitor Archer 10


Advice


Got a Mythic game coming up and I want to play a High DPR Archer.

I Played one before but it was a level 20 Fighter

this time I want to play one with a few other trick attached

I am just not sure what will give me more at the start and at the end

the pure Inquisitor or the Zen Archer Dip?


On the pure Inquisitor route, you get no delay in spellcasting but have a bunch of feats to qualify for. And, no delay in your other class abilities.

On the Zen Archer dip, you get free Precise shot and Flurry (aka, Rapid-shot alternative) but you can't use rapid shot/manyshot with it. Oh, and delayed casting.

Honestly, I'd stay go pure Inquisitor. You'll probably be more happy in the long run.


DeathlessOne wrote:

On the pure Inquisitor route, you get no delay in spellcasting but have a bunch of feats to qualify for. And, no delay in your other class abilities.

On the Zen Archer dip, you get free Precise shot and Flurry (aka, Rapid-shot alternative) but you can't use rapid shot/manyshot with it. Oh, and delayed casting.

Honestly, I'd stay go pure Inquisitor. You'll probably be more happy in the long run.

Ah cool thanks :)

Can I get some Advice on it then.

for an High DPR Archer what Domain should I go with


No question, pure inquisitor, sanctified slayer. The monk dip sounds nice but it is a trap. Most archery feats will require rapid shot, which doesn't work with flurry and every level without bane stinks.. not to mention all the very nice teamwork feats and spells which makes you a terror


Advice on Stats

going half orc

20 Point buy

with +2 Bonus to a stat from my Mythic tier


JuliusCromwell wrote:

Ah cool thanks :)

Can I get some Advice on it then.

for an High DPR Archer what Domain should I go with

You bet. Personally, I like the Animal Domain and something cat related. Though, Boon Companion definitely gets in the way of archery feats needed.

ekibus has a good suggestion with archetype choice. Though, giving up judgement for sneak attacks is a bit ... meh to me. Especially since being an archer gives you less opportunity to make use of it. The Studied Target IS nice, because it boosts the DCs of your class abilities against that target.

Take your typical archery feats: point-blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, manyshot and/or clustered shot. If you can squeeze in more feats (or if you don't have anything better to do), try to work in the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses so that you can make use of your sneak attacks at range. If you pick something cat related for your animal companion, Violent Display is a nice selection, too.


@ Deathless one

also could i get some advice on my stats
going half orc with a 20 point buy and +2 to a stat do to mythic


personally I'd probably do something like

14
14+2race +mythic
14
10
14
10

If you prefer min maxing and munchkiny dump stats

14
16+2race+2mythic
14
9
14
7


With mythic in play I'd avoid getting an animal companion. They'd keep dying on you. The conversion inquisition helps you be a face character, or the travel domain might help you stay out of melee, or the glory/heroism subdomain gives pure number bonuses.


As far as stats: I'd go with the following

Str: 12
Dex: 17 (15 +2 racial)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 9

OR, if you don't want a Cha penalty

Str: 12
Dex: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 15
Cha: 10

Put Mythic bonus in Dex. Bump Wisdom to 16 at level 8.


DeathlessOne wrote:

As far as stats: I'd go with the following

Str: 12
Dex: 17 (15 +2 racial)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 9

OR, if you don't want a Cha penalty

Str: 12
Dex: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 15
Cha: 10

Put Mythic bonus in Dex. Bump Wisdom to 16 at level 8.

Think I'll Go with the first

I have trouble playing cha anyways


avr wrote:
With mythic in play I'd avoid getting an animal companion. They'd keep dying on you. The conversion inquisition helps you be a face character, or the travel domain might help you stay out of melee, or the glory/heroism subdomain gives pure number bonuses.

Ya i'm thinking TRAVEL

BTW WHAT ARE Some good team work feats i can take at level 3,6 & 9?


Friendly fire maneuver is a must. Coordinated shot, enfilading fire, volley fire and target of opp. The first two are a must imo. Half orc is rough..losing a feat really bogs you down. Don't forget deadly aim...you will be pretty accurate that it wont make a dent.

Sneak attack is nice but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. If you want at level 10 you get greater invisibility. Biggest gain is the studied target..bonus to knowledge (so you can determine what a creature is to bane it) But even better is the bonus to hit and damage...I went fate's favored and every encounter starts with divine favor..at level 8 you get a slayer talent, take combat trick and then manyshot or clustered shot.

Spells: Litany of sloth is good in a pinch, divine favor will be your go to. Heroism, bloodhound (pheromone arrows will give you +2 hit and damage)

So level 10 with pheromone and bane I'm hitting at +24(2arrows)/+24/+17 and 1d8+17+2d6..oh with clustered shot too


@Ekibus Could you help me set up my skills
I am going fav class bonus skill for the extra skill point

and I went Half-orc for sacred tattoo and dark vision


Skills are tough, mainly feels like there are too many you need but even with 8 per level it isn't enough. There are 5 knowledge skills..if you put one in each every level that leaves you with 3..perception obviously, survival then either spellcraft or sense motive. I kinda went everywhere putting a point in climb, swim,stealth and heal..then I put points in handle animal (I did the feather domain so I had a companion) Diplomacy (nothing like having a cha 7 and having the highest diplomacy) Sorry tired and typing...long story short I spread out my points but that is also because I play in PFS so party changes a lot. But here is the fun stuff..there is a spell heightened awareness which gives you +2 knowledge and perception..that stacks with heroism..then add wis and studied..at level 10 with 7 points in my knowledge skills I have a 21 to identify and weakness..18 straight.. I actually bought a rod of extend asap to help keep them up. If you dont want to branch just get all the knowledge up, perception, survival and either sense motive or spellcraft.

Sacred tattoo and darkvision are nice but you are stuck waiting until level 5 to get the holy 3 (precise, point blank and rapid) That hurts a lot. You really want as many arrows in the air hitting things asap. My logic for darkvision is if you are the only one with it, it's kinda pointless since a light spell will need to be cast..unless you want to scout ahead...nut that never ends well. The bonus for saves IS nice but as a archer your saves are actually not too bad..I have 10/10/12 not counting heroism which boosts it by 2 (did I mention I lover heroism) Holy!? Just read divine favor..you will cast it as mythic?? If so..yeah luck to skills and saves with the spell (drool) wont stack with sacred tattoo though..so again something to think about. One perk for the half orc though is you could take favored bonus to add 1/2 to intimidate and identify monsters...that would actually give you more skill points but when you get a little higher you might want to use the favored for more spells...

Ack lack of sleep had me rambling...sorry


If you are going half orc take the alternative favored class bonus instead of the skill point. It gives a +1/2 bonus to intimidate and knowledge checks to identify monsters. That is basically 3 skill points per level instead of 1. This will allow you to put a single point into the knowledge skills to identify monster and still be very good at it. Since you already get ½ level to intimidate as an inquisitor that essentially maxes out the skill for free. You can still put in skill point to intimidate allowing you to get the equivalent of 2 skill points per level to intimidate.

Personally I would not go for sanctified slayer. The Studied target is nice but Judgements are incredibly versatile and give you more options than just damage. Judgements are also better vs multiple weak targets because once declared they do not require any action to keep up. Since studied target has to be declared vs specific targets this is less useful vs a horde of weaker targets.


Question is Judgement light good as a spell or is it meh?


Not too familiar with Inquisitor. What is the action economy of a vanilla Inquisitor archer like vs a Sanctified Slayer?


Judgement light is a poor spell. The idea with this type of spell is that you sacrifice some raw power for flexibility. Sure the individual affect may not be as strong as a similar level spell, but you have multiple different things you can do with the spell. Normally this type of spell would be great for a spontaneous caster, but this spell is just too weak for a 4th level spell. The biggest concern is that it requires you to burn through two class abilities to work. Having to have an active judgement and use a spell to activate makes this spell too expensive in terms of what it gives. There are a lot better 4th level spells than Judgement Light. Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster are all better 4th level spells.

Inquisitors already have a lot of combat abilities so when choosing their spells give serious consideration to picking up more utility spells, and less combat spells. Disguise Self, Invisibility, Knock, Nondetection, Speak with Dead and Find Quarry are all very useful spells for an inquisitor.


Sweet Mysterious agrees with my comment about the half-orc's favored...good to know. But anyways if I read the mythic divine favor...if you can cast that as a normal spell the sacred tattoo is obsolete pretty quick. Darkvision as I mentioned can be...situational..

I assume mysterious stranger has experience with judgements with a ranged inquisitor, but here is my experience: First off it is x times per day so once or twice a day you can kick some tail...studied is unlimited and ideally as a archer you should be hitting the big bad first anyways. The time you run into small fries between base archery and allies it is kinda pointless to use a judgement anyways. As for "flexibility"

Destruction: Sweet I do damage...wish I could hit the darn thing

Healing: Umm I'm in the back and I was paranoid enough to take cure light, I'm fine thanks

Justice: Sweet I'm hitting...sure wish it hurt them a bit more

Piercing: umm yeah like I'm casting a spell at them..buffing all the way

Protection: In the back and really with dex being high I'm good

Purity: Sweet saving throws...wish I killed them before they cast that spell though

Resiliency: Yup again why am I in the front line again??

Smiting: Ooo nifty but obsolete when clustered shot comes up...also do enough damage to make most attacks hurt.

Sorry for the tongue and cheek but really when the sanctified slayer came out I dropped the base in a heartbeat. Bonus to hit and damage right off and skill bonus not to mention the bonus to DC on spells (but why bother?) The pure gold is the level 8 talent though, Getting combat trick right then to get either manyshot or clustered shot is too nice.
Sneak attack is a bit silly but by level 10 you can cast the 4th level spell greater invisibility which will make sneak attack possible...there was a encounter or two I actually pulled out my heavy mace..and the gm cursed that I was doing so much damage :) But I also had a velociraptor with divine favor and heroism helping me out. Again as mentioned before not sure how it would survive in mythic.


Studied Target is a decent ability but has some problems. Until 7th level it requires a move action to activate. This means that until 7th level you cannot take a full attack when activating studied target. Each time you activate it, it only applies to a single target. As you level up you can maintain it vs more targets, but it still takes one actions (move or swift) to select the target. So unless you have a chance to study your targets before a battle it is more than likely only going to affect a single target per round. If you are facing a small number of tough opponents this is not a problem, but vs a horde of weaker opponents it will be.

Judgements allow you to gain multiple bonuses as you level up. 8th level gives you second judgement, and 16th gives you three bonuses at the same time. So when the sanctified slayer is getting +3 to hit and damage the standard inquisitor is getting +3 to hit (+6 to confirm a critical hit) and +4 to damage. I also have the option to put those bonuses to other things if I need to, and can even adjust them during the combat. While you only have a limited number of judgements per day they last for the entire battle.

Sanctified Slayer does not work well with an archery build until 7th level. At higher level the bonuses from judgements are greater and affect more thing than studied target. By the time you reach high level you also usually have enough judgments to get the job done.


in my experience studied target is usable enough with archery before 7

there are plenty enough times where you can see a target before a fight starts, or there's a surprise round, maneuvering etc. You also get to use an immediate to activate when you get to sneak attack

judgement and studied are both good abilities, there are going to be times when one would have been slightly better than the other, but that isn't even all you get for sanctified


Typically if you are unable to prep ahead of combat you are looking at least 1 round to cast divine favor, since you are archer movement isn't as much of a factor so using the movement to study is hardly a waste. Also you get some non-combat bonuses from studied. Also..I'm really curious about this...how often have you run into a horde of weaker opponents? Also I mean they are weaker opponents would you actually burn a judgement on that instead of a boss fight? Sorry but really for a archery build you are worried about confirming crit?? I'm not completely knocking judgement, as you mentioned at later levels it will beat studied. But it still doesn't give you that bonus feat...seriously as a archery build we all know how important those are. I watched a GM get a twitch when I went greater invisibility and added 3d6 to each arrow I shot out...the combat went from challenging to trivial...which I should mention there are some buff spells you should definitely get...invisibility purge and communal resist energy have been game changers.


I agree both have good and bad sides

but my question is how good will sneak attack be at range i though there was a limit to its range


Believe it is 30ft, as I mentioned it is not something I would rely on. At level 10 I picked up greater invisibility and that changed the game but before that, only time I needed it was when I was without the bow.

But still studied is pretty strong and that bonus feat cannot be stressed enough


I'll agree that communal resist energy is a fantastic spell. Invisibility Purge is usually a huge disappointment. Most of the monsters in Pathfinder that remain invisible beyond their first attack are naturally invisible. As such, invisibility purge doesn't affect them. You need See Invisibility or another effect that lets you see invisible things, not something that removes invisibility.

If you have no arcane casters to handle invisible opponents, yeah take invisibility purge. But if you have someone with the superior See Invisibility make sure they have Glitterdust and let them handle it. Unless your GM loves Greater Invisibility you shouldn't see it often since it makes for encounters where most of your players just get frustrated for no good reason.


According to the errata invisibility purge will work, unless the creature specifically says it isn't effective. So pixies and will o wisp it will work but not invisible stalker. Add in there is no saving throw or SR and it is a nice back up spell. I had a lot of fun using it between myself and AC, canvassing a entire room. Still at 5ft per level it adds up quick.


Sneak attack is usually going to be limited on a ranged build for a couple of reasons. The first and most important is that it the range is limited to when you are within 30 feet of your target. Second since flanking only applies to melee attacks, that eliminates one easy method of getting sneak attack. This is going to mean that for the most part sneak attack with a bow is something that will usually only happen in the beginning of the combat if at all. Once you get high enough to get Greater Invisibility then you can actually make it work, but that will still be something that does not occur all that often.

One thing to consider about your character is that an inquisitor does not get access to Point Blank Master. That means that you will always provoke an attack of opportunity when using the bow. The nice thing about the inquisitor is that his class abilities are not dependent on any particular weapon or fighting style. In that case you would be able to use sneak attack in circumstances where using the bow is not safe.

You are playing in a mythic campaign so that can change a lot of things. Things are a lot more dangerous in a mythic campaign so having the ability to boost up your defenses can be very important. The last thing you want to do is to fail a save vs a mythic disintegrate.

What path is your character taking?
Champion would boost up your archery. Sniper’s Riposte would eliminate the problems of using the bow in Melee. Limitless range would allow you to attack from much greater distance. Armor Master will allow you to ignore the maximum dexterity bonus on armor. Precision is going to mean you hit a lot more often with your secondary attacks.

Hierophant is going to boost your magic ability. Inspired spell not only give you more spells per day, but also allows you to cast [b}any spell on your spell list[/b] even if it is not one of your know spells. Mythic Spell casting will give you access to mythic spells without having to use a mythic feat. Enduring blessing can make a buff spell last all day. This works really well with Mythic Heroism.

Trickster could also work for you. Surprise Strike would allow you to get in at least one sneak attack per round. This is probably not going to be worth the mythic point it costs. Aim for the Eye will allow you to increase the range for sneak attack to 60. Master Dilettante would make you a true skill monkey. Ricochet will help with cover and concealment. Tricksters also get Snipers Riposte so this path will also allow you to avoid AoO.


@ Mysterious Stranger

Well most likely i'll be taking the champion path

the game has a high change of going to level 20

I also need advice on future feats and my mythic feats


What level and tier are you starting at? Also do you have any information on the rest of the party?


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
What level and tier are you starting at? Also do you have any information on the rest of the party?

Level 10

Tier 2

The party is a 3 man squad

one player is thinking of playing some sort of investigator and i know the other one is thinking Necromancer wizard (at least that was the last i heard)


ekibus wrote:

Believe it is 30ft, as I mentioned it is not something I would rely on. At level 10 I picked up greater invisibility and that changed the game but before that, only time I needed it was when I was without the bow.

But still studied is pretty strong and that bonus feat cannot be stressed enough

Well these are my feats so far.

what would you recommend at level 8?

PBS,Precise shot,shake it off, rapid shot, coordinated shot, Improved initiative, Many shot, friendly fire Maneuver


At level 8, if going sanctified slayer take rogue combat and take clustered shot.. basically you add all your damage before DR counts.

I'm not too familiar with mythic but do you get the benefit of the mythic feats?


Shield of darkness is one spell level lower and suffices to get sneak attack - if the enemy doesn't have the see in darkness ability.

I ran a game where a PC picked that spell up and the party promptly went to investigate a gate to the lower planes. He was disappointed in its effectiveness but if you're not doing something close to that the spell should be reasonably effective.


You can stack Ravener Hunter to Sanctified Slayer for amazing initiative with War Mystery to get War Sighted and Weapon Mastery.

Makes the most spicky dpr archer.

What you want to know about archers :
- Molthune Arsenal Chaplain : 1st dpr, 2nd defense, 3rd utility (few skill points)
- Sanctified Slayer / Ravener Hunter : 2nd dpr (a bit spicky), 3rd defense, 1st utility
- Zen Archer / Quiggong : 3rd dpr (arguable), 1st defense (by far imo), 2nd utility

Pinch of salt there trying to summarise but these are the 3 best ranged archers I can think of.


If you are going sanctified slayer trickster is a better path than champion. It gets access to Snipers Riposte so you can still avoid AoO when using the boy. It also has access to Aim for the Eye which increases the range of sneak attack to 60 instead of 30. Surprise Strike will allow you to spend a mythic point to get an extra attack and the target is considered flatfooted no matter what. It also has access to Path Dabbling at tier 3 so you can pick up Enduring Blessing.

Your first mythic feat should be mythic rapid shot. At tier 3 pickup mythic spell lore to get access to mythic heroism. Combined with Enduring Blessing this will give you +4 to attack, damage, saves and skill rolls. That is something that will be incredibly useful.


Padawanchichi wrote:

You can stack Ravener Hunter to Sanctified Slayer for amazing initiative with War Mystery to get War Sighted and Weapon Mastery.

Makes the most spicky dpr archer.

What you want to know about archers :
- Molthune Arsenal Chaplain : 1st dpr, 2nd defense, 3rd utility (few skill points)
- Sanctified Slayer / Ravener Hunter : 2nd dpr (a bit spicky), 3rd defense, 1st utility
- Zen Archer / Quiggong : 3rd dpr (arguable), 1st defense (by far imo), 2nd utility

Pinch of salt there trying to summarise but these are the 3 best ranged archers I can think of.

I feel bad cause everyone has been giving me advice on Doing a Inquisitor Archer but I think i'm just going to simplify it.

Going Fighter (Archer - Archetype) and most likely champion path mythic


because gloves of dueling don't work for it, and advanced weapon/armor training is unavailable for it, the fighter archer archetype is a significant downgrade over archery on a plain fighter


The archer archetype age so badly as most of what it does is easily replicated with feats. However, because of this, it easilly has one of the best feat ratios in the game (in my opinion).

By that I mean, that it lets you get standard dpr ranged feats, while also letting you be an utility archer (disarm, trip, etc.)


Well Should I Go Archer, weapon master or Regular fighter?

also can i get some advice on the feats i picked out?


Archer is about maneuvers, as so its best for utility builds. The fact you have all your feats means you can choose to focus on dmg or further focus on utility (not much point in my opinion thou).

Weapon Master is about being the best with/against your weapon. Usually its used for dips to get AWT using fewer Fighter levels.

Regular Fighter is just well basic. It wont be the best at any one thing, but it also wont be the worse at it. It also has the best support of the three, because of AWT and Gloves of Dueling.


JuliusCromwell wrote:

Well Should I Go Archer, weapon master or Regular fighter?

also can i get some advice on the feats i picked out?

Any Fighter Archetype that trades out Weapon Training or Armor Training is trash. With the introduction of Advanced Weapon/Armor Training all of the old archetypes that get rid of them have become weaker than the base class.

Honestly, in my opinion, the base fighter is more powerful than any Archetype made for it. The only thing Archetypes do is introduce abilities early while screwing your long term growth. If there is a weakness that an archetype covers for, AWT/AAT, gear and feats can cover for it instead. And out of all of those, you can always get more gold to get items to cover weaknesses. Heck, you can afford to sink 2 feats into crafting your own arms and armor if gold is an issue.

And if you want buffs, just sink a feat into Leadership and bring along a buff bot.


Meirril wrote:
JuliusCromwell wrote:

Well Should I Go Archer, weapon master or Regular fighter?

also can i get some advice on the feats i picked out?

Any Fighter Archetype that trades out Weapon Training or Armor Training is trash. With the introduction of Advanced Weapon/Armor Training all of the old archetypes that get rid of them have become weaker than the base class.

Honestly, in my opinion, the base fighter is more powerful than any Archetype made for it. The only thing Archetypes do is introduce abilities early while screwing your long term growth. If there is a weakness that an archetype covers for, AWT/AAT, gear and feats can cover for it instead. And out of all of those, you can always get more gold to get items to cover weaknesses. Heck, you can afford to sink 2 feats into crafting your own arms and armor if gold is an issue.

And if you want buffs, just sink a feat into Leadership and bring along a buff bot.

i think Eldritch guardian is better than base fighter, for archers as much as most other things. At least at higher levels. Though I guess you could argue the whole archetype is just a poor man’s Leadership feat.

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