Alternate Disarm Implementation?

[Previloc]

Disarm is a low percentage shot because it can break the game (as designed) when it's just attacker dice rolls. What about an implementation that, like trip and shove, work more like an action tax/choice? Just brainstorming here...

Add to any Gauntlet entry in 6-5(pg180) the keyword "Disarm" and "Worn"
Add to any Shield entry in 6-5(pg180) the keyword "Worn"
Add to the Parry keyword description(pg182) and the new Worn keyword, that these weapons can't be successfully Disarmed.

Action: Break Hold (Athletics(trained) vs Reflex, targets an item held by another within your reach with either a weapon with the "Disarm" keyword, or your free hand if targeting a weapon that isn't a Knife or Sword, or a non-weapon item.
Special Circumstances: You have a penalty to Break Hold targeting and item held in both hands equal to the wielder's Strength modifier. In addition, a Break Hold action against a Worn item automatically Fails.

Description: You attempt to weaken an opponent's grasp of an item, so that you may be able to disarm them.

Success: The opponent is Enfeebled 2 using that weapon or item.

The opponent may spend an action to remove that Enfeebled 2 condition (steady grip).
Special: an Opponent with Quick Draw may steady grip as a Reaction to this effect, or any opponent may spend a Reaction to attempt an Acrobatics vs Reflex to steady grip.

Critical Success: You knock the item from the wielder's grasp, and it falls to the ground in thier space.

Critical Failure: You lose your balance and become Flat Footed until the end of your next turn. If you used a weapon with the Disarm property for this action, and it is not "Worn", you may drop the weapon immediately, instead of becoming Flat Footed.

Reaction: Disarm (Athletics(trained) vs Reflex, targets an item used with an action and held by another with the Enfeebled 2 (or higher) condition that is within your reach, with either a weapon with the "Disarm" keyword, or your free hand if targeting a weapon that isn't a Knife or Sword, or a non-weapon item.

Description: You attempt to knock an item out of the hand of a target that does not have a firm grip.

Success: You knock the item from the wielder's grasp, and if falls to the ground in that space. If you are using a Free Hand weapon or your free hand for the Disarm, you may attempt an Acrobatics vs Reflex to catch the weapon in that hand.

Critical Success: You knock the item from the wielder's grasp, and it falls to the ground in a direction of your choosing to the side or away from you, a number of squares equal to your Strength modifier, minus the Bulk of the item, a minimum of 0 squares. Alternatively, if you are using a Free Hand weapon or your free hand for the Disarm, you may catch the disarmed item in that hand.

Critical Failure: You lose your balance and become Flat Footed until the end of your next turn. If you used a weapon with the Disarm property for this action, and it is not "Worn", you may drop the weapon immediately, instead of becoming Flat Footed.

Note: The Disarm and Worn keyword modifications are simply added to avoid disarm attempts against an edged blade with a bare hand without a high level class feature/feat to accomplish that without losing fingers. It's not necessary, just flavorful.

[Edge93]

Hmm, this is interesting. Maybe a little complex or in need of being made more concise, but I like it. It takes the idea already present of weakening a foe's grip before knocking a weapon out, and making it much more doable with that reaction.

A little problem though, if you can just shake it with an action I'm not sure it'll be so good because they will rarely have reason to NOT do that, and thus you will likely just be spending an action (that attributes to your MAP for that round) to maybe force them to spend an action that doesn't contribute to their MAP.

I was also going to object to the restrictions on disarming edged weapons because I study karate and have actually learned a bit about disarming knife and sword wielders (Basically you manipulate the hands, NOT touching the blade directly at all) but then I realized my training is probably equivalent to a specific class level and/or feat. XD

But yeah, interesting idea, though IDK if I'd use it myself. Disarm definitely does need work though.

[Nettah]

I agree with disarming needing to be changed since it's currently not really worthwhile as far as I can tell (maybe there is a scenario with multiple fighters trying to disarm one stronger enemy it might be good, I'm not sure) but unfortunately I feel like your method is overly complicated. However "weakening the grasp" of the weapon resulting in Enfeebled seems like an interesting idea.

What about simply changing disarm success to the following:

You weaken your opponent’s grasp on the item. Until the end of that creature’s turn, attempts to Disarm the opponent of that item get a +2 circumstance bonus and the creature suffers Enfeebled 2 with attacks using that item.

instead of the current:

You weaken your opponent’s grasp on the item. Until the start of that creature’s turn, attempts to Disarm the opponent of that item get a +2 circumstance bonus.

If this is too strong an effect the Enfeebled could be changed to 1 or the creature could be allowed to spend an interact action to remove this effect or both.

[Previloc]

Edge93 wrote:

… if you can just shake it with an action I'm not sure it'll be so good because they will rarely have reason to NOT do that, and thus you will likely just be spending an action (that attributes to your MAP for that round) to maybe force them to spend an action that doesn't contribute to their MAP.

Yes, that's at the balance of making a skill action too useful, versus useless. These actions (like shove and trip) need to be situational, and I liked the idea of disarm relying on a reaction to both preparation and use of the item (ignoring the opposition's success provoking a consequence). You could drop the whole 're-steady' action mechanic and make the Enfeebled 2 last until the end of your next turn.

Ironically, I don't like Aid Another being dependent on both an action and reaction. I like Aid Another as a reaction with a Skill Roll. If you spend an action to prepare and Aid, I think you should just get the +2 (and avoid that Critical Failure possibility).

I liked Enfeebled 2 leading to a Disarm because it didn't require the Break Hold action nor require a new special state - a character can be Enfeebled for other reasons and thus provoke a Disarm by using a weapon/item without a steady grip.

Edge93 wrote:

I was also going to object to the restrictions on disarming edged weapons ... but then I realized (that) is probably equivalent to a specific class level and/or feat. XD

You read my mind.

[Richard Crawford]

Disarm is literally broken. With the monster math replaced with "arbitrarily come up with a level appropriate number", there is no way of knowing what modifiers a disarmed opponent has when attacking.

[Captain Morgan]

Richard Crawford wrote:

Disarm is literally broken. With the monster math replaced with "arbitrarily come up with a level appropriate number", there is no way of knowing what modifiers a disarmed opponent has when attacking.

...wut. Bestiary disagrees with you.

"If a creature loses its weapon, it needs to use an unarmed
attack or draw another weapon. In the latter case, find a
Strike entry for the creature that most closely matches the
substitute, reducing the attack bonus by 2 and using the
damage die for the new Strike. If the creature needs to make
an unarmed attack and doesn’t have one listed, it uses the
statistics for a fist (Playtest Rulebook 179)."

Disarm is certainly pretty niche because lots of actual monsters also pack a pretty dangerous unarmed attack. But that's no different from PF1-- giants in PF1 had slams, giants in PF2 have fists. They really just changed the names.

[Draco18s]

Nettah wrote:

You weaken your opponent’s grasp on the item. Until the end of that creature’s turn, attempts to Disarm the opponent of that item get a +2 circumstance bonus and the creature suffers Enfeebled 2 with attacks using that item.

My reply got lost, apparently. But I've suggested something like this before as well.