Aspects and Skills

[Ascalaphus]

The vanguard hasn't done badly where skills are concerned. He gets 12 out of the 20 skills in the game as class skills and a very comfortable 6+Int skills per level. He might have a decent Intelligence score too, because both Ysoki and Androids make good Dex-driven vanguards.

And yet I'm not completely satisfied.

The vanguard has no starship combat skill as a class skill. As a Dex-friendly full BAB class of course the vanguard can be an excellent gunner. But being pigeonholed into only one role isn't really fun. Besides, a Strength-based build would be only an average gunner, and not good at anything else.

How come the vanguard has physical science, life science, culture - but no engineering? It's almost like this frontline melee combatant is too fixated on theory over practice. But don't machines have anything to do with entropy? Don't machines wear down and break down?

Also: no piloting. Why not? This is a dexterity-loving class with a dearth of starship roles.

Also: no stealth. Why not? Is entropy always right in your face? Don't accidents and decay and death ever creep up on you?

Now, I can see an argument for not giving all vanguards even more class skills. They already have a lot of them, although I'm not sure exactly why Diplomacy is more a vanguard skill than Stealth. So here's an idea: give some of these class skills paired with (new) aspects.

New aspects you say? Don't we have enough of them? Well, maybe. There are 3 aspects that give you Improved Combat Maneuver (Bull Rush), 2 that give you Improved Combat Maneuver (Sunder), and 1 for Dirty Trick and Reposition. What about Disarm and Trip? Here's some suggestions:

Quote:

Crash

You embody the tendency of things to have a hard landing.

Aspect Insight (Ex) You gain Improved Combat Maneuver (Trip) and Pilot becomes a class skill. If it is already a class skill from another source, you gain a +2 insight bonus to it instead.
Aspect Embodiment (Ex) Once per combat, when you reduce a significant enemy to 0hp, you can gain 1 Entropy Point without taking any additional action.
Aspect Catalyst (Ex) (...)
Aspect Finale (Ex) (...)

Quote:

Disappearance

Stuff gets lost.

Aspect Insight (Ex) You gain Improved Combat Maneuver (Disarm) and Stealth becomes a class skill. If it is already a class skill from another source, you gain a +2 insight bonus to it instead.
Aspect Embodiment (Ex) If at the beginning of combat all enemies are unaware of your presence in the encounter, you start the fight with 1 additional Entropy Point.
Aspect Catalyst (Ex) (...)
Aspect Finale (Ex) (...)

(And Engineering could probably be paired similarly with another Sunder aspect..)

[CptJames]

To build on this, I found I build my Vanguard's differently based on whether I knew the scenario had a Starship tag or not.

I understand that this happens in playtesting, but it legitimately changed some decisions in a major way...if you know you have to put skills in something for Starship combat, and you aren't even optimised in that skill (as not a class skill) then it takes a chunk out of your skills that you are skilled in.

I agree with the above because Ascalaphus and I had a starship combat as level 8 Vanguards and in a 4 player game (Biohacker and a Technomancer) we found that the Biohacker had to pilot, and we could just gun (with me occasionally doing Engineering as the Technomancer can't be both a Science Officer and a Engineer), it felt restricted to know the points I put into Engineering (to make sure I could make the checks properly...tier 8 ship) were making me lose out on class skills and also not even giving the +3 to help me along (Ysoki helps that slightly).

I like the idea of pairing aspects and classes because then as you level up and take another aspect, you can gain either a class skill or an insight bonus, so you know that you might be putting skill points in a non-class skill now, with a look for the future when it will become a class skill!

I'd be interesting to see what happens regarding this :)

[StarfinderHomebrewer]

I think the reason the Vanguard doesn't have stealth is that it is meant to be a big burly frontline, and I can't image any tank from a video game trying to sneak up on someone.

[Nyerkh]

Although we are seeing a lot of Dex-tanks, as it stands. Quite possiboy a majority.

Stealth wouldn't be overly weird in that situation : you have zero mobility tool, the next best thing is sneaking up to your enemies until you're close ebough to yell "Surprise", be loud, flashy and grab their attention while your buddies open up as you get to work.

It's also one skill themes can't give you, unless I'm forgetting something. And the only one of those mentioned here, in that case.

[Inkfist]

StarfinderHomebrewer wrote:

I think the reason the Vanguard doesn't have stealth is that it is meant to be a big burly frontline, and I can't image any tank from a video game trying to sneak up on someone.

Whilst that was my first impression, you really aren't rewarded for being a strength/con Vanguard. (Especially at low levels) You lack the mobility and gap closers other melee classes have, shields are too expensive and provide minimal benifit at lower levels (especially as you either need to use your move action to tap close or you don't have one due to full attacking in melee).

The last selling point for me for a dex dodge tank was spaceship combat. With either a background or skill synergy you can be a fantastic pilot or gunner, whereas strength based vanguards are either relegated to being sub-par gunners or left out of things entirely.

[Ascalaphus]

StarfinderHomebrewer wrote:

I think the reason the Vanguard doesn't have stealth is that it is meant to be a big burly frontline, and I can't image any tank from a video game trying to sneak up on someone.

Are you sure it's meant to be that? You can make a completely viable low-strength ysoki vanguard. It's actually one of the most straightforward builds to make; Entropic Strike is an operative weapon so you're pushed towards dexterity, and some disciplines such as evasion only work if you're not in heavy armor.

So you're actually on the path to play a tread-lightly build that makes perfect sense to go for stealth. Instead of running into the room yelling at the top of your lungs, your plan is to already be in people's faces by the time they notice the rest of the party.

[KLGChaos]

Aspects are underwhelming in general. As I've said, you could probably remove them altogether, substitute in a couple of Vanguard specific feats, and wouldn't notice a difference. Catalysts come way too late in leveling to be a huge factor and are too limited and weak, especially compared to things like Solarian Revelations which are a such a big part of that class.

Skillwise, 6 per level is great. I'm fine with them having their own skills set that doesn't cover every single thing. Though I do find it strange that most of their skills are based around Int, Wis and Cha.

I'm wondering how forgoing shields for two-weapon fightong would work out. I'm not sure if there would be a point outside having a couple different critical effect options.

[ArcKing]

Having only played 1 game with a vanguard at level 8, I am limited but still have some thoughts in this:

When I think of the Vanguard, I think of riot police, or those elite personal guards that high ranking officials/nobles/royalty would have escorting them and protecting them. Thus, I can see Diplomacy being a class skill to talk people down (with intimidate being useful for hindering enemies in combat). Life Science, not so much. Given their description and how they operate, I can see Physical Science.

But my biggest peeve with class skills is the total lack of engineering, especially since they are able to weild advanced melee weapons and wear heavy armor with shields. You’d think they’d be able to maintain equipment that regularly takes a beating. It would also help to expand their Starship Combat capabilities beyond just shooting things if they need to. No complaints about skill ranks though. Base of 6 per level is just enough without being silly.

Aspects, I think are beneficial. A free CM feat and a bonus to a skill can be quite helpful, as I’ve experienced. Didn’t even need to build into Strength for it, yes at “high” level. But the Catalyst comes in far too late to be a real help. And hinders not only playtesting, but defensive and protective capabilities from the aspects. Granted, I went with Boundary and Exergy as a damage sponge build and ended up making light of nearly all damage from the enemies in my attempt to basically play my own krogan. But it was really fun. These are my only complaints so far and may be back with more feedback as I get more chances to play (especially when I’m not in SFS and can do multiclassing to help with that end)