Something I'd like to see with Vanguard and Witchwarper


Character Operations Manual Playtest General Discussion

Scarab Sages

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Something I'd like to see with these classes is a HOW they get their powers. In Pathfinder we knew how a class got it's abilities. A cleric devoted themselves to a god. A Fighter trained, a wizard studied, a sorcerer was born with innate ability, a monk meditated, all that.

And for Starfinder we kinda get that. Solarians (at least the original ones) meditate on the cosmic balance of the universe. If Raia's backstory is any indication, technomancers study much like the wizards of old to get their powers. Mystics devote themselves to some sort of cosmic calling (whether that is a deity or not.) Presumably Engineers study and tinker, and envoys forge social connections. Operatives and soldiers train and rely on their natural talents.

But what creates a vanguard or witchwarper? How do you go from average pre-teen to 'guy who can channel entropy' or 'guy who pulls favorable outcomes from alternate-freaking realities!' Are they born with the talent like the sorcerers of old? Is there a 'school for witchwarpers?' We know the Kasatha were the first society effectively mass-spread solarians to the stars, is there another race that pioneered Vanguards?

These classes are already very ethereal and hard to pin down from a 'what are they doing' standpoint, not knowing where they came from or how they work is . . . distracting. At least for me. Why doesn't everyone just decide to channel entropy or pull stuff in from alternate realities? I mean, presumably not everyone has the temperament for the meditation required for solarians, or the calling of a mystic or the money to get into a technomancer school. What prevents these guys from being freaking everywhere.

From a lore (not mechanics) standpoint, why would anyone choose to be a soldier, (or why would any company train soldiers) over vanguards? Why isn't EVERYONE trying to pull in stuff from other dimensions?


That's probably one of the last things they'll write up, right before coming up with the iconics for the COM.

Scarab Sages

The Ragi wrote:
That's probably one of the last things they'll write up, right before coming up with the iconics for the COM.

Both classes have an intro blurb. They could say something like: “you were born with an innate connection to feel alternate realities,” or “You studied as a Solarian but things went wrong when you realized that the suns will all eventually die out, instead of constantly renewing in a great cycle.”

Just a taste of why/how these very concept-heavy classes tangably got their power.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The develpoers have said they dont plan on it.. Pcs get their powers from anywhere they want. Iirc it was on the cosmic crit interview, but it could have been a starfinder paizo stream.

Scarab Sages

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GeneticDrift wrote:
The develpoers have said they dont plan on it.. Pcs get their powers from anywhere they want. Iirc it was on the cosmic crit interview, but it could have been a starfinder paizo stream.

That is . . . disappointing. I get that they don't want to limit character options, but at the same time, some grounding would be nice. Like what they did with Solarian. They say that studying the stars and meditating is how Kasatha developed solarian abilities and that's how the spread it out, but since then other avenues have been unlocked. Someone talked about a supercomputer downloading ideas into your brain, or a new way of doing it found in a cave under Apostate or whatever.

I'm not asking for something like pathfinder sorcerers, where all Sorcerers HAVE to have FROM BIRTH a bloodline type of magic, I'm saying a starting point would be nice.

Like maybe, randomly, devourer cultists discovered that they could gain power from worshiping the end of all things, and that's what led to vanguards. Someone defected from them, or their teachings were found, and people have since learned how to be vanguards in a variety of ways. Boom, gives us grounding, we know where it came from, but it doesn't lock down characters.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
GeneticDrift wrote:
The develpoers have said they dont plan on it.. Pcs get their powers from anywhere they want. Iirc it was on the cosmic crit interview, but it could have been a starfinder paizo stream.

That is . . . disappointing. I get that they don't want to limit character options, but at the same time, some grounding would be nice. Like what they did with Solarian. They say that studying the stars and meditating is how Kasatha developed solarian abilities and that's how the spread it out, but since then other avenues have been unlocked. Someone talked about a supercomputer downloading ideas into your brain, or a new way of doing it found in a cave under Apostate or whatever.

I'm not asking for something like pathfinder sorcerers, where all Sorcerers HAVE to have FROM BIRTH a bloodline type of magic, I'm saying a starting point would be nice.

Like maybe, randomly, devourer cultists discovered that they could gain power from worshiping the end of all things, and that's what led to vanguards. Someone defected from them, or their teachings were found, and people have since learned how to be vanguards in a variety of ways. Boom, gives us grounding, we know where it came from, but it doesn't lock down characters.

Well you will likely get one version in the iconic back story..


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Vanguards were first discovered 3 billion years ago by a long forgotten and extinct civilization. They have been lost and rediscovered five times in the interim. No one remembers the most recent (and extinct) discoverers. No one will remember you, either. Embrace entropy and the ultimate futility of existence.


I don't see why they would nail people down to one sort of (sorry) paradigm for these classes. People want to get creative in their characters' origin stories; more power to them, I say.

My playtest witchwarper is basically a personified Infinite Improbability drive who decided to be a tour guide.

Sovereign Court

Put me down for "the blurb lists three different theories where the power came from, and each of them might be true".

I agree with VampByDay that a bit of fluff, with a veeery light touch, would be nice.

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