Grenadier and "Alchemical Items"


Rules Questions


The Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon ability reads:

"At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets..."

It's obvious that stuff that falls under Alchemical Creations works, but some preliminary research suggests that an Alchemist's Bombs are not supposed to work with this, RAI.

So what is supposed to be the limit of this ability? Is it any item that can be created by the Craft (Alchemy) skill, but not (Su) abilites granted by classes?


It seems to be any harmful alchemical item.

Apparently an alchemist's bomb is not considered to be an alchemical item going through the wording of the ability. If there's a class ability that counts as an alchemical item, and is harmful, it would probably work with this.


Why would the Bomb not work with? I'm asking as I have always ruled it to work just fine.


Talonhawke wrote:
Why would the Bomb not work with? I'm asking as I have always ruled it to work just fine.

"...harmful alchemical liquid or powder..."

Unless you rule bombs to be little more than molotovs (which is the equivalent of Alchemist's Fire or a fused Oil Flask anyways...) they don't/shouldn't apply in this ability's context.


Bomb wrote:
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this [i]liquid catalyst[/b] from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

Yes I consider bombs to be both alchemical and liquid in nature. And thus work just fine with the Grenadier.


Talonhawke wrote:
Why would the Bomb not work with? I'm asking as I have always ruled it to work just fine.

The issue is, despite allusions to being an alchemical item, they are never called out as being one.

As a side note, I believe it'd be fine as a homebrew rule.


I mean they are listed under the Alchemy class feature then expanded upon in their own section. I don't know what they are if not at least in part alchemical.


Talonhawke wrote:
I mean they are listed under the Alchemy class feature then expanded upon in their own section. I don't know what they are if not at least in part alchemical.

Oh I didn't think to look there, that further clinches that they aren't.

Quote:
An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens.


Just because magic is used in it's creation doesn't stop it from being alchemical. Look at holy water.

We can also at Alchemical Strike, which works with alchemical weapons and calls out that it doesn't work with bombs. Meaning that the devs must assume that they are alchemical weapons. The Flask Launcher uses the same, language of not including bombs flat out.

Then again we have the Alchemist Atlatl . Which says they are magical and don't work with it.

So honestly I would recommend checking how your GM wants you to run it. Worse case you have to grab explosive missile to do pull this. Best case they say it's fine as is.


A Magical Item is not just something (like holy water) that uses magic in it's creation. A magical item is itself magical.

Alchemical Items are a specific type of item listed in the equipment section and labeled as such. They are not any item that someone with the Alchemist class can make using class features (indeed most of those things are not academical items.)

Talonhawke wrote:
We can also at Alchemical Strike, which works with alchemical weapons and calls out that it doesn't work with bombs. Meaning that the devs must assume that they are alchemical weapons.

That is a logical falacy. A clarification sentence ('this doesn't work with bombs') doesn't mean that without that sentence it would work with bombs, it could just mean that the author felt that some people would not realize that bombs wouldn't apply to this ability and so they made sure their would be no confusion.

Bombs are not alchemical items unless somewhere they are defined as being so. It requires a positive statement to that effect, not an inference from negative statements.


Like I said best to check with the GM on how they want it ran if your wanting to do it.


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Mixing chemicals from an alchemical lab certainly sounds like alchemy to me. A class specific form of alchemy, but alchemy none the less.

For some who see it as alchemy the color will be enough. For those that disagree it will not be enough.

Ask your GM.

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