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This movie should definitely be viewed on the largest screen possible.
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I think personally, even though spoilers have been mentioned here, this is entitled "... Trailer" and it might be better to have a specific spoilery review thread. What do y'all think?
I'd say let's get a separate thread going.
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Speaking of Tony's funeral, standing behind the Guardians was a person I can't identify. Caucasian male with dark hair. He was standing by himself. Anyone know who he was?
Cap living in the past and not doing anything to change it makes sense. He knows that everything is going to work out.
He did do a couple of couple of things though while returning the Gems.
First he recaptured Loki and took him back to to Stark Tower. (Can you imagine Loki's surprise when he saw Cap wielding Mjolnir?)
He then rearranged things so Hydra still had Loki's Scepter and Thor left with the Tesseract. (Since he didn't have the Scepter when he left, I am thinking he used the Reality Gem to recreate it and encase the Space Gem in the Tesseract.)
I surmise he then used the Mind Gem to restore every's memory to what it should be.
I wonder what happened between Cap and Skull when he returned the Soul Gem?
One last thing, Thanos said he used the Infinity Gauntlet to destroy the Gems; but according to the comics they can't be destroyed, even by each other. I surmise that instead of being destroyed they were instead scattered throughout the universe. Who knows when or where they will turn up next.
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SPOILERS
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QUESTIONS
1. If younger/still bad guy Nebula came back using her last Pym Particle, how did she bring Thanos Flagship to present day?
2. Does Loki have the Tesseract? He fled with it. Yaaay!
3. Did you guys get the Boromir feels as Thor wanted to take the Gauntlet when they had all the stones?
Also notice how Cap. had Mjolnir when he took the stones back? Otherwise what Hammer would Thor use during Ragnarök if our Thor took Mjolnir? Good part on show runners to think of that.
Captian America moment that puts the final scene in Endgame into perspective.
Captain America moment that makes the final scene a bit naughty.
Seen it twice, will go for a third next week. I’m happy we as a community enjoyed this one.
Please JJ, can we have this unity for The Rise of Skywalker?!
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Based on a vote of three -- okay, time to move threads--we don't want people thinking because this just says "trailer" it is safe.
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Finally did my part in (gods willing) the dethroning of Avatar. While the movie was not without its flaws, overall I thought it was excellent.
Of course, now I have serious doubts about whether the MCU can continue with the brilliant success it's had. Moving forward, I don't think all the actors who might be continuing have what it takes to help carry the Avengers franchise. The individual movies will probably fair better.
Well I'm still willing to hope they bring in the Young Avengers and the Avengers from 20XX. Danielle Cage as Captain America :D
Moving forward, I don't think all the actors who might be continuing have what it takes to help carry the Avengers franchise. The individual movies will probably fair better.
Considering how shabbily solo films have been treated in terms of the movies acknowledging their developments and events, I think that might be a very good thing.
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Well I'm still willing to hope they bring in the Young Avengers and the Avengers from 20XX. Danielle Cage as Captain America :D
Ooh, she's my favorite Captain America variant, but I don't know if the MCU is ready to even embrace Luke Cage, let alone his grown-up daughter. (Then again, she could show up in a 'What If' episode...)
I think phase 4 is probably going back to lower stakes movies, if only because I think Marvel is currently in a transition period where they will need to figure out what exactly they are going to do with the Fox properties.
Well certainly they need to figure out what to do with all the mutants now...
yeah that is a big worry of mine going into phase 4. I hope future movies are not going to be judged by making Endgame profits.
All I know is eventually we need Kang, Apocalypse and Thanos to start a new trilogy.
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Thanos? I think we are suitably done with Thanos in the MCU
I think he's due for a flashback appearance in the Eternals, but then his contract is up.
I'd personally prefer to see more scaled-down stuff than more cosmic level nonsense. It's just too exhausting. But then, that's always been my preference in the comics too.
I strongly suspect and hope X and MCU will remain separate franchises for awhile. Both are enormous enough universes on their own.
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So, not just in Endgame, but something I've really enjoyed about the movies (starting in phase 3 especially) was that the kept a really big color palette. The Thor movies always had the rainbow bridge, but GotG, Dr. Strange, and Ragnarok, the movies were super colorful and vibrant. Over the past 15 years so many films have taken on stark monochromatic color schemes to hammer home their vibe, that I've really enjoyed having a few movies with lots and lots of high contrast color.
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My own concern is that all too often, an individual movie will be allowed to do its thing- but narratively, gets thrown under the bus any time an Avengers movie needs to happen.
We didn't see it so much in the first Avengers flick because, well, less had happened prior to it, but ever since then, solo movies are invariably treated as unimportant to what's going on in the wider universe- which is damned silly when you look at the threats, changes, and developments that a lot of those solo movies usher in.
Cape,
I wouldn't mind that too if Thanos also joined up with the guys I mentioned.
While I don't think the X-universe will join up into the MCU proper YET...I think down the line isn't entirely improbable. Like say for 2028 maybe?
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My own concern is that all too often, an individual movie will be allowed to do its thing- but narratively, gets thrown under the bus any time an Avengers movie needs to happen.
We didn't see it so much in the first Avengers flick because, well, less had happened prior to it, but ever since then, solo movies are invariably treated as unimportant to what's going on in the wider universe- which is damned silly when you look at the threats, changes, and developments that a lot of those solo movies usher in.
I am right there with you. It also takes a lot of investment to get into these team up films, and the last three big team ups -- Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame -- were from afar, spectacular action blow out adventures, but don't bear a lot of close plot scrutiny. Whereas while there are bumps, the solo and smaller group films tend to be MUCH tighter with both plotting and characterization, and it's much easier to get invested in what's going on rather than try to track what is building up to what next.
Endgame was an amazing, wild ride, but I am exhausted and feel the need to get off the mega crossover event train. I give myself room and permission to change my mind depending on what happens, but from here on out as of right now I only plan on following whatever few, key solo films/characters I like and will watch them as much as I can as standalones. Like, I adored Captain Marvel, so I'll see Captain Marvel 2 which I presume will eventually come out. If they do another Ant-Man I'll see that. But as of right now I no longer feel the need to be invested in Avengers (there's no active Avengers upcoming I also like enough to want to follow), and I'm not interested in the Eternals at all. And none of the other upcoming films sound interesting to me either, except if the rumored Black Widow movie comes to fruition (and I'm starting to wonder if that really was just rumors all along since it's been so long and nothing has yet been confirmed).
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Like...
Iron Man 2 and 3 ushered in changes to how Tony did things... kind of. We got a throwaway use of semi-autonomous drones in Age of Ultron (and never saw them again). We had absolutely no reference whatsoever to his destroying all of his suits in Iron Man 3 until maybe, MAYBE Pepper's line on the subject in Endgame... a long, long time after the fact.
Thor? Pretty much nothing stuck from his solo films except for a couple of characters. Granted, the first two weren't exactly brilliant, and Ragnarok was such a hard swerve that it basically felt like a reboot, but even what the semi-reboot set out to achieve with the character has been ignored since its credits rolled.
Cap... gets relatively lucky in the solo film department and how the changes wrought stuck to him. The supporting cast in those films is less fortunate- and one of his "solo" films really isn't and we all know it.
The Guardians of the Galaxy were awesome(ish) heroes in their films dealing with their weird, star-faring family. Jamming them into Avengers movies did none of them any favors except POSSIBLY Nebula (and the way they were mostly obliterated in Infinity War speaks volumes about the fact that they were largely seen as superfluous).
Hulk... basically has no solo movies thanks to the whole rights issue combined with the actor swap, and man, does it show. Poor guy's a shuttlecock when it comes to getting him into team-up space.
Captain Marvel had a pretty good solo film (I was less wowed by it than many here, but it was hands-down a tighter script than any Avengers movie except MAYBE Civil War), but her role in her first ever team-up crossover was... "Yeah, Brie, get over to the set of your own movie after a couple of bits here."
Ant-Man's solo films seem like burdensome inconveniences to anyone helming a team-up flick, as his supporting cast is pointedly stripped away any time they want to use him- in Civil War, this was especially egregious because it made a mockery of the steps toward emotional maturity and honesty with the people he loves that he made in his IKEA lamp of a first film.
Doctor Strange... well, with only one movie under his belt, it's a hard call, but it's also hard to feel like his film was required viewing to make sense of his role in Infinity War. His tacked-on love interest, Mordo... nope, not relevant, here's a wizard doing it.
Black Panther... my god, man, when you look at how much of Infinity War happened in Wakanda and how LITTLE it felt like the awesome Afro-Futurist feast for the senses we got in his solo film... how shabbily the supporting cast was used... "yeah, we set this up so stuff's happening here, but it hardly matters." Ehhhhhhhhhh.
I really hope, in this post-Endgame world, that they let characters have their own business to attend to before magically handwaving them into ongoing operations as a team because we need an opening montage (WHEDON!).
Like...
Iron Man 2 and 3 ushered in changes to how Tony did things... kind of. We got a throwaway use of semi-autonomous drones in Age of Ultron (and never saw them again). We had absolutely no reference whatsoever to his destroying all of his suits in Iron Man 3 until maybe, MAYBE Pepper's line on the subject in Endgame... a long, long time after the fact.
Tony, while his arc in Endgame was FANTASTIC, got so much stuff in his own films that was ignored or rewritten out in the teamup stuff. Like, they didn't want to deal with Pepper and make Tony sad so they write her out of Civil War but then POOF! Everything's fixed in Spider-Man with now backstory or explanation and they're getting married now.
Thor? Pretty much nothing stuck from his solo films except for a couple of characters. Granted, the first two weren't exactly brilliant, and Ragnarok was such a hard swerve that it basically felt like a reboot, but even what the semi-reboot set out to achieve with the character has been ignored since its credits rolled.
I never liked Thor much, especially his solo films, except for Ragnarok. And I'm annoyed, like you, it looks like he's getting shoehorned into Guardians. I realize he grabs both the youthful bro-admiring male fan demographic and that of those fans' moms, but still.
Cap... gets relatively lucky in the solo film department and how the changes wrought stuck to him. The supporting cast in those films is less fortunate- and one of his "solo" films really isn't and we all know it.
Yeah, Cap got an okay story through his three films, but the Cap family suffered deeply, and I know many disagree with me, but I feel his treatment in Endgame was also very lazy and lacked considerable depth, where he deserved better. While Tony got a full arc, his story sort of goes through a few bumps and then a sappy "bandaid ending" that has a lot of problems if you start thinking about it too hard. Although Sam, Bucky, and Sharon I think still mostly made out better in the Cap "solo" films than most of Thor's backup, though Jane at least got way more screentime than Sharon, if a more damsely role.
The Guardians of the Galaxy were awesome(ish) heroes in their films dealing with their weird, star-faring family. Jamming them into Avengers movies did none of them any favors except POSSIBLY Nebula (and the way they were mostly obliterated in Infinity War speaks volumes about the fact that they were largely seen as superfluous).
I am HERE for Nebula's arc in Endgame, which IMO is one of the best things in the film. We could have probably brought that in without bringing in the entire Guardians, or at least as much.
Hulk... basically has no solo movies thanks to the whole rights issue combined with the actor swap, and man, does it show. Poor guy's a shuttlecock when it comes to getting him into team-up space.
Disney really just needs to pony up some funds to get the distribution rights to Hulk. I am sure it would be expensive, but it's not like they don't have the resources, and Universal could use the money--I mean, THEY'RE not making any Hulk projects, are they? So they're just sitting on it.
Captain Marvel had a pretty good solo film (I was less wowed by it than many here, but it was hands-down a tighter script than any Avengers movie except MAYBE Civil War), but her role in her first ever team-up crossover was... "Yeah, Brie, get over to the set of your own movie after a couple of bits here."
This is the problem when you want a key character in your crossover movie, but the origin story gets delayed (IIRC Captain Marvel was supposed to show earlier than 2019). They hadn't even seen the Captain Marvel script when working on Endgame. Her role was FUN in Endgame but very, very little characterization.
Ant-Man's solo films seem like burdensome inconveniences to anyone helming a team-up flick, as his supporting cast is pointedly stripped away any time they want to use him- in Civil War, this was especially egregious because it made a mockery of the steps toward emotional maturity and honesty with the people he loves that he made in his IKEA lamp of a first film.
Ant-Man is a character I want to see remain with his no universe... with no team ups.... until Fantastic Four is introduced and he eventually, older and wiser and sadder, becomes the backup Future Foundation Four team. Because, MAN, was that a good comic.
Doctor Strange... well, with only one movie under his belt, it's a hard call, but it's also hard to feel like his film was required viewing to make sense of his role in Infinity War. His tacked-on love interest, Mordo... nope, not relevant, here's a wizard doing it.
I want to say we needed a deeper introduction to his skills and the time stone, but honestly, I slept through most of Doctor Strange and I still made perfect sense of his role in IW and Endgame, so I must concede that you are correct.
Black Panther... my god, man, when you look at how much of Infinity War happened in Wakanda and how LITTLE it felt like the awesome Afro-Futurist feast for the senses we got in his solo film... how shabbily the supporting cast was used... "yeah, we set this up so stuff's happening here, but it hardly matters." Ehhhhhhhhhh.
I don't know if it /hardly/ matters. I do feel like you'd not understand Wakanda's army and defenses, etc. if you did not see Black Panther. But certainly he as a character was much better in his own movie, and the worldbuilding in that film is IMO hands-down the best worldbuilding we've seen in a MCU movie by far.
I really hope, in this post-Endgame world, that they let characters have their own business to attend to before magically handwaving them into ongoing operations as a team because we need an opening montage (WHEDON!).
In fairness, I think the first Avengers worked really well and was set up really well. But the crunch started happening with AOU on...
I think they will probably charge toward New Avengers and maybe Young Avengers... but I think some fatigue is going to set in. Then again people have been quoting "superhero fatigue" for a few years now and how much money did Endgame make? So IDK. But I have a feeling they are not going to be able to go toward something Endgame-esque and have it be as cohesive or good (especially again when Endgame, in the end, doesn't bear up under a lot of close scrutiny; it has to be enjoyed as a brainless blockbuster with a few good character moments for a few choice characters, and then it's phenomenal).
Moving to a different universe... imagine if Warner Brothers had the sense to hold off on Justice League. Give us a better Batman movie instead of BvS. Keep Wonder Woman and Aquaman as they were. Give us a decent movie for a couple of other key players. And THEN, just as we're now burning out on MCU, they had put out Justice League... that's how to do it. But they didn't.
And in general, I think trying to use Films as really, really, really elongated series is starting to show its flaws. Now, I say this, 22 movies in. Not denying the obvious success of the MCU films--there's obviously a lot they did right. But the seams have been stretched, and for all that is absolutely freaking amazing, there's a number of characters that got the shaft and stories that got dropped..... and you kind of realize why most movies are meant to stand alone and you save the serials for television. Star Wars too... it worked well as a serial idea for the first three movies; but the prequels were lackluster and the sequels which, while I have liked them, have proven deeply divisive. And I think that divisiveness is also an inevitable product of "serial movie" sort of ensemble films. The more you push on, the more visions of both fans and creators alike splinter.
I think there is plenty of room for the MCU to remain successful--I mean, again, look how much money they have made---but I hope they push toward some smaller stuff before going big again, if ever. Don't know if that's in Disney's ever profit-hungry sights however.
Black Panther... my god, man, when you look at how much of Infinity War happened in Wakanda and how LITTLE it felt like the awesome Afro-Futurist feast for the senses we got in his solo film... how shabbily the supporting cast was used... "yeah, we set this up so stuff's happening here, but it hardly matters." Ehhhhhhhhhh.
Knowing a couple people who skipped BP, but they saw IW... they were confused about who everyone was, what was going on, why the characters were even there at all... in other words, IW scenes in Wakanda were very confusing for them.
Your take is much more likely to apply to people who did see it, but didn't connect with the film. I'm sure some people weren't confused as well (who didn't see BP), but I know for a fact that people I describe exist (anecdotal, but they account for 100% of the people I've known who didn't see BP, but saw IW).
Black Panther... my god, man, when you look at how much of Infinity War happened in Wakanda and how LITTLE it felt like the awesome Afro-Futurist feast for the senses we got in his solo film... how shabbily the supporting cast was used... "yeah, we set this up so stuff's happening here, but it hardly matters." Ehhhhhhhhhh.Knowing a couple people who skipped BP, but they saw IW... they were confused about who everyone was, what was going on, why the characters were even there at all... in other words, IW scenes in Wakanda were very confusing for them.
Your take is much more likely to apply to people who did see it, but didn't connect with the film. I'm sure some people weren't confused as well (who didn't see BP), but I know for a fact that people I describe exist (anecdotal, but they account for 100% of the people I've known who didn't see BP, but saw IW).
But that's my point.
IW didn't feel like Wakanda- it just had a bunch of characters from Black Panther in it as the sacrificial army du jour. It was wallpaper. You could have swapped in a pre-Winter Soldier S.H.I.E.L.D. army and changed almost nothing. It didn't really acknowledge Black Panther beyond going, "this is where Bucky has been and there's the hardest nut to crack on the planet. Here's some characters fan of Black Panther will recognize doing their things in short bites."
About the only acknowledgment of Wakanda's new openness the the outside world and T'Challa's choice to help the wider world as a momentous step was... a reference to the fact that the Border Tribe wasn't at full strength.
Which is more or less typical of how the team movies treat solo films.
Actually, that is the opposite of what I said.
I was disagreeing with you.
*shrug*
Not really seeing it, but that's the internet for you.
You said "it hardly matters." But it did, and I gave an example why.
I'm saying your example actually proves my point, as I see it, but you know, you do you.
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I feel like there is a bit of misunderstanding going on. Irontruth is saying he knows people who didn't see Black Panther who did feel lost watching Infinity War.
Cole, earlier your suggestion I believe was that you did NOT need to see Black Panther to understand what was happening in IW. So no, Irontruth is contradicting your assertion, and that people familiar with Black Panther understood what was happening in the Wakanda segment of IW much better than those who didn't.
And I disagree with you--IW's Wakanda did feel like Wakanda to me. You just didn't see as much of the capital city. But a lot of the customs and the tech--you don't know how it works unless you saw Black Panther. And while they did very little with the supporting characters, if you didn't say, know who Shuri was, you'd have no idea why such a young woman would be entrusted with Vision or that she was capable of working with him.
The only part where I agree with you is about Black Panther's character development, which is an entirely different thing.
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Yup, I would agree that IW did not advance "Wakanda's storyline"... but it didn't advance "New York City's storyline" either. The ensemble movie doesn't have to push EVERY storyline present in the MCU.
The movies can, and should, feel a little different. The ensemble movies shouldn't be a rehash of what happened in the solo movies. It should instead build a collective narrative that applies to all the characters.
From a practicality standpoint, the solo movies can't reference each other too much. They are being written and produced somewhat simultaneously by different teams. Plus, it means that we get more individualized stories in the solo movies. The big stuff needs to be coherent, but small details are just that... small.
IW was still an "Avengers" movie, which Avengers 1 and 2 established as Cap, IM, Thor, BW, Hulk, and Hawkeye. So yeah, the movie doesn't spend a lot of time developing Black Panther characters. Especially side characters. It didn't spend a lot of time developing side characters from any of the Iron Man movies either.
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Cole, earlier your suggestion I believe was that you did NOT need to see Black Panther to understand what was happening in IW. So no, Irontruth is contradicting your assertion, and that people familiar with Black Panther understood what was happening in the Wakanda segment of IW much better than those who didn't.
Ah, see, this is where I go back and kick myself for lack of clarity-
Doctor Strange is the one you can skip, and as it's the only one I explicitly say that about, I thought I was clear enough.
My point with Black Panther/IW is that the ONLY thing you need out of BP is a who's who list, and that the (momentous) developments therein and the texture it established is essentially absent- visually, in dialogue, and in what and how the characters act (although a close viewing of Civil War and Black Panther back to back also indicates there's a wee bit of retcon action going into Black Panther based on what was established in Civil War).
Now, that latter point is more subjective, but the scenes in IW could have happened anywhere Wakandans wanted to show up to make a mockery of Cap's "we don't trade lives" line, and, given how T'Challa has reversed course on the former total isolationism, the fact that it's tossed out in a throwaway blink-and-you'll-miss-it line has it in a similar boat to many other solo films.
There are degrees of neglect, and while Black Panther definitely fares better than Doctor Strange in that regard, it still basically gets binned so the Avengers can do their Avenger stuff. Which, given how overstuffed these last two crossover schmozzes have been, is perhaps understandable- but which also does a disservice to the work going into the solo films.