The current dying rules in update 1.5 and 1.6 are quite a bit better than the ones we started with at the beginning of the playtest, but they still have a number of problems from my perspective. Of these, I think the most critical ones are:
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Considering this, I'd like to propose an alternative set of dying rules that makes use of negative HP, ala PF1E, but incorporating some of the PF2E design goals.
When you take damage that drops your HP to 0 or lower, you are knocked out. When this happens you:
1) Fall unconscious (gaining the unconscious condition). If it was currently your turn, your turn ends.
2) Immediately move your initiative position to directly before the creature or effect that knocked you out.
3) If the damage was lethal damage, you gain the dying condition.
4) Nonlethal damage applied against a target with positive or 0 HP can never reduce the target below 0 HP, and does not cause them to gain the dying condition.
(If the target of nonlethal damage was already at negative HP, the nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage)
Dying:
While you have the dying condition, you are at death's door. At the beginning of each of your turns, you must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC for this saving throw is equal to half your current negative HP (ie. if you are at -15 HP, the Fortitude save is DC7). A natural 1 is not an automatic failure or critical failure on this save.
Massive Damage:
If you ever take damage in excess of your maximum HP (referred to as taking massive damage), you must immediately make a Fortitude saving throw. If you fail this saving throw, you die. The DC for this Fortitude saving throw is equal to half your current negative HP, or an extreme difficulty saving throw for your character's level, whichever is more difficult.
Heroic Endurance:
Whenever you would need to make a Fortitude saving throw or die, you can choose to spend 1 Hero Point to automatically succeed at the saving throw. If this saving throw was required due to massive damage, you must instead spend 3 hero points to automatically succeed.
Recovering from Death's Door:
There are three basic ways to recover from the dying condition:
1) If you remain dying and unconscious for 10 minutes, at the end of that period you lose the dying and unconscious conditions and return to 1 HP. (To determine if you die during an extended period of remaining within a dying state, take a 1 on your Fortitude save vs. death)
2) At the beginning of your turn while unconscious and dying (before making your save vs. death), you may spend 3 hero points to immediately lose the dying and unconscious conditions and return to 1 HP.
3) If while unconscious and dying you are healed to 1 HP or higher by any effect, you lose the dying and unconscious conditions.
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Here are the advantages (as I see them) of this proposed system:
Like PF2E's existing system, these alternate dying rules give PCs leeway when knocked unconscious, providing time for PCs to rush to each other's aid in heroic fashion. Going straight from fighting to perma-death is very unlikely. OTOH: From using these in one session with my players, they make dying a little more "sticky", it takes a little more effort from the party to bring a dying teammate back into the fight, reducing the amount of ping-ponging into and out of an unconscious state.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Is this an improvement or does the Update 1.5 system work well for you?
At the beginning of each of your turns, you must make a Fortitude save or die.
Recovering from Death's Door:
1) If you remain dying and unconscious for 10 minutes...
That'll never happen with your system. Even if you have a DC1 fort save to make (you'll never fail, except on a nat-1) you're unlikely to survive for 10 minutes. How likely are you to fail zero of the requisite 100 Fortitude saves? 0.6%
Massive Damage:
If you ever take damage in excess of your maximum HP (referred to as taking massive damage), you must immediately make a Fortitude saving throw. If you fail this saving throw, you die. The DC for this Fortitude saving throw is equal to half your current negative HP, or an extreme difficulty saving throw for your character's level, whichever is more difficult
This save will never occur. Its borderline impossible to take that much damage at once against any threat the PCs are likely to encounter. Additionally, the DC is almost always going to be the "extreme for your level" as you're never likely to take all that damage while at anything OTHER than full health (leaving you in the single very low two-digit negatives). You do somehow get hit for 160 damage at level 12 while you've got all of 10 or 20 HP you're required to make a DC 70 Fort save!?
That'll never happen with your system. Even if you have a DC1 fort save to make (you'll never fail, except on a nat-1) you're unlikely to survive for 10 minutes. How likely are you to fail zero of the requisite 100 Fortitude saves? 0.6%
In the "Dying" section, I made a specific exception for these Fort saves vs. death to make it so that nat 1s don't auto-fail. That way, if you're lying unconscious after a fight, so long as rolling a 1 on your FORT save doesn't kill you, the player doesn't have to roll any saves at all (ie. they can take a natural 1 on their roll every round) for the 10 mins until they recover.
This save will never occur. Its borderline impossible to take that much damage at once against any threat the PCs are likely to encounter. Additionally, the DC is almost always going to be the "extreme for your level" as you're never likely to take all that damage while at anything OTHER than full health (leaving you in the single very low two-digit negatives). You do somehow get hit for 160 damage at level 12 while you've got all of 10 or 20 HP you're required to make a DC 70 Fort save!?
I agree that this save would be rare, but just like the original PF2E massive damage rules, its there to cover situations where you suddenly take tremendous damage all at once. Maybe you fall out of a floating sky fortress and take 200 points of falling damage, for example. The use of two different save calculations is to ensure that massive, traumatic damage scales between super-difficult-to-survive and impossible-to-survive, depending on how much it exceeds your max HP.
Maybe it could be simplified further to just an extreme-difficulty save no matter your negative HP, but much like coup de grace in PF1E, there's a bit of theatrical drama in presenting a player (or an enemy) with a save DC well beyond what is feasible to roll.
That'll never happen with your system. Even if you have a DC1 fort save to make (you'll never fail, except on a nat-1) you're unlikely to survive for 10 minutes. How likely are you to fail zero of the requisite 100 Fortitude saves? 0.6%In the "Dying" section, I made a specific exception for these Fort saves vs. death to make it so that nat 1s don't auto-fail. That way, if you're lying unconscious after a fight, so long as rolling a 1 on your FORT save doesn't kill you, the player doesn't have to roll any saves at all (ie. they can take a natural 1 on their roll every round) for the 10 mins until they recover.
Fine
s/DC1/DC<nat2>There will be a DC where that point will exist at every level.
In any case, your rules can be replaced by "if you don't get magical healing, your dead." Which no one will want to play.
The DC simply doesn't scale with damage taken very well at all. -40 HP? Totally fine. -50? Won't last 2 minutes without help. -60? Won't last 30 seconds (5 rounds). -70? Won't last a single round. Total max hp? 165.
(Approximate numbers, based on my level 12 paladin)
It reintroduces the problem that Paizo was trying to fix, that characters died too often at higher levels, because the negative buffer want big enough. Only instead of "negative your con score" its "negative double your fort save plus 20" or so.