Agile Glaive?


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

With a few feats, I am able to make my glaive finessable,and wish to put agile on the glaive to maximize damage. But I want to clear up some confusion. Agile says 'this modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons'. Does this mean it doesn't work on two handed weapons or that you can't do 1.5 damage as you normally would with two handed weapons?


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It won't give you Dex 1.5 on 2 handed attacks. The real thing you will need to check with you GM is if they will let you enchant it with agile at all. There is a subtle difference between I can use Glaives as a finesse weapon and This weapon can be used with weapon finesse. You being able to finesse a glaive doesn't suddenly make them legal for the enchantment right out the box.

*House Rules Section*

As a GM I personally have no issue with allowing it but I also tend to make dex to damage much easier to come by.


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Only the URogue can do 1.5x Dex damage if two handing a weapon. Any other Paizo way is going to be 1x Dex, or 0.5x Dex if off hand.

If you are using the Bladed Brush feat, it won't work with Agile. Agile needs a weapon that by default can use Weapon Finesse, not one that later is becomes Weapon Finesse-able.


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The main thing isn't that it has to be by default Finessable it's that it has to be a property of the weapon not the user. If for instance we had a weapon mod that could be placed on it to make it a finesse weapon then it would qualify for Agile.


SorrySleeping wrote:

Only the URogue can do 1.5x Dex damage if two handing a weapon. Any other Paizo way is going to be 1x Dex, or 0.5x Dex if off hand.

If you are using the Bladed Brush feat, it won't work with Agile. Agile needs a weapon that by default can use Weapon Finesse, not one that later is becomes Weapon Finesse-able.

No melee weapon can use DEX-to-hit by default.

All usage of DEX-to-hit is a granted by either feats or class abilities. The Weapon Finesse feat is just one means, and it is modified by many other feats and class abilities.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:

Only the URogue can do 1.5x Dex damage if two handing a weapon. Any other Paizo way is going to be 1x Dex, or 0.5x Dex if off hand.

If you are using the Bladed Brush feat, it won't work with Agile. Agile needs a weapon that by default can use Weapon Finesse, not one that later is becomes Weapon Finesse-able.

No melee weapon can use DEX-to-hit by default.

All usage of DEX-to-hit is a granted by either feats or class abilities. The Weapon Finesse feat is just one means, and it is modified by many other feats and class abilities.

And your distinction is meaningless in this context because we aren't talking about Dex to hit, we are discussing the agile enhancement. Agile very clearly states that "This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse." Glaives can not be used with Weapon Finesse unless you have permission to do so from another ability. In this case, that ability comes from a feat.

But as far as the weapon is concerned, it is not usable with Weapon Finesse. It simply fails to meet the requirement since Weapon Finesse has a list of weapons that do qualify and Glaive isn't among them. Someone might argue that adding the Training enhancment with Bladed Brush would qualify the Glaive. That is a form of circular logic that I don't think should be allowed to work. This would be like wielding an intelligent Holy Avenger and saying you don't take penalties from not meeting the alignment restrictions because the weapon itself meets them for you.


Well I would discount training under my earlier statement anyway since it confers the feat onto the wielder thus meaning that the user can finesse the glaive if they meet the prereqs, not that the glaive is now a finesse weapon.

The Exchange

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This is one of the many problems with the Bladed Brush feat. (Not that the idea is bad but that it creates all kinds of unanswered edge cases in combination with other materials.)

My answer is “no, you can’t enchant it with agile.”

There isn’t a 100% unassailable This is What the Rule Explicitly Says answer. But it seems clear that Bladed Brush (specifically the part that lets you finesse glaives) only works when you are wielding the weapon. It doesn’t change the properties of a glaive for anyone else, and it isn’t finessable if it is sitting on a table. So when the crafter walks up to it, it isn’t a finessable weapon.


Belafon wrote:

This is one of the many problems with the Bladed Brush feat. (Not that the idea is bad but that it creates all kinds of unanswered edge cases in combination with other materials.)

My answer is “no, you can’t enchant it with agile.”

There isn’t a 100% unassailable This is What the Rule Explicitly Says answer. But it seems clear that Bladed Brush (specifically the part that lets you finesse glaives) only works when you are wielding the weapon. It doesn’t change the properties of a glaive for anyone else, and it isn’t finessable if it is sitting on a table. So when the crafter walks up to it, it isn’t a finessable weapon.

The solution is simple: wield the weapon during the entirety of the crafting/enchantment. ;)


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It could be read either way:

Quote:
This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

It doesn't actually specify the weapon needs to innately support weapon finesse. Just that weapon finesse needs to be usable with the weapon. And weapon finesse is usable with a glaive if you jump through the right hoops.


Melkiador wrote:

It could be read either way:

Quote:
This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
It doesn't actually specify the weapon needs to innately support weapon finesse. Just that weapon finesse needs to be usable with the weapon. And weapon finesse is usable with a glaive if you jump through the right hoops.

But this isn't a case of the Glaive being usable with weapon finesse this is a case of weapon finesse being able to be used with the Glaive. That glaive can't just be picked up and finessed it has to be in the hands of certain wielders. If not then a fighter could finesse and agile any weapon he wanted by 7th level with advanced weapon training.


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Talonhawke wrote:


But this isn't a case of the Glaive being usable with weapon finesse this is a case of weapon finesse being able to be used with the Glaive. That glaive can't just be picked up and finessed it has to be in the hands of certain wielders. If not then a fighter could finesse and agile any weapon he wanted by 7th level with advanced weapon training.

All that means is that the enchant can be placed on any melee weapon as currently written. Any melee weapon can be used with weapon finesse. So weapon finesse can be used with any melee weapon.


No certain characters can use weapons with with finesse the weapons themselves can't be.

Much like how using a training weapon doesn't let you take feats it's a prereq for. You don't have the feat the weapon lets you use the feat.


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Weapons can’t use themselves at all. Characters use weapons. And characters can use any melee weapon with weapon finesse.


Melkiador wrote:
Weapons can’t use themselves at all. Characters use weapons. And characters can use any melee weapon with weapon finesse.

Are you trying to troll, or are you that daft? Weapon finesse has a very short list of weapons, some it calls out by name, that are usable with the feat.

There is a big difference between a character with Weapon Finesse using a weapon and a character with Weapon Finesse using Weapon Finesse with a weapon.


Melkiador wrote:

It could be read either way:

Quote:
This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
It doesn't actually specify the weapon needs to innately support weapon finesse. Just that weapon finesse needs to be usable with the weapon. And weapon finesse is usable with a glaive if you jump through the right hoops.

So under this argument a medium sized Earth Breaker can be made into an Agile weapon because it would be a light weapon for a huge creature? So agile can be placed on any melee weapon.

I think not. Both arguments are equally invalid.


Melkiador wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:


But this isn't a case of the Glaive being usable with weapon finesse this is a case of weapon finesse being able to be used with the Glaive. That glaive can't just be picked up and finessed it has to be in the hands of certain wielders. If not then a fighter could finesse and agile any weapon he wanted by 7th level with advanced weapon training.
All that means is that the enchant can be placed on any melee weapon as currently written. Any melee weapon can be used with weapon finesse. So weapon finesse can be used with any melee weapon.

Agile lists a restriction on what weapons it can be placed on. Weapon Finesse has a list of weapons that work with the feat. The enhancement isn't going to check and see if the weapon suddenly becomes a valid target for this enchantment due to some circumstance beyond its own intent. Certainly not based on a potential wielder, because we could declare that all small sized weapons are invalid targets because tiny creatures couldn't use them with weapon finesse as easily as you can qualify someone else. Those circumstances have nothing to do with the feat that is referenced, but some other extraneous circumstance that isn't germane to the enhancement.


Meirril wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
SorrySleeping wrote:

Only the URogue can do 1.5x Dex damage if two handing a weapon. Any other Paizo way is going to be 1x Dex, or 0.5x Dex if off hand.

If you are using the Bladed Brush feat, it won't work with Agile. Agile needs a weapon that by default can use Weapon Finesse, not one that later is becomes Weapon Finesse-able.

No melee weapon can use DEX-to-hit by default.

All usage of DEX-to-hit is a granted by either feats or class abilities. The Weapon Finesse feat is just one means, and it is modified by many other feats and class abilities.

And your distinction is meaningless in this context because we aren't talking about Dex to hit, we are discussing the agile enhancement. Agile very clearly states that "This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse." Glaives can not be used with Weapon Finesse unless you have permission to do so from another ability. In this case, that ability comes from a feat.

But as far as the weapon is concerned, it is not usable with Weapon Finesse. It simply fails to meet the requirement since Weapon Finesse has a list of weapons that do qualify and Glaive isn't among them. Someone might argue that adding the Training enhancment with Bladed Brush would qualify the Glaive. That is a form of circular logic that I don't think should be allowed to work. This would be like wielding an intelligent Holy Avenger and saying you don't take penalties from not meeting the alignment restrictions because the weapon itself meets them for you.

Anything that adds to the list of weapons is doing just that: by modifying the weapons that Weapon Finesse works with, it adds to the list of properties and abilities that that only work with finessable weapons.


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Belafon wrote:

This is one of the many problems with the Bladed Brush feat. (Not that the idea is bad but that it creates all kinds of unanswered edge cases in combination with other materials.)

My answer is “no, you can’t enchant it with agile.”

There isn’t a 100% unassailable This is What the Rule Explicitly Says answer. But it seems clear that Bladed Brush (specifically the part that lets you finesse glaives) only works when you are wielding the weapon. It doesn’t change the properties of a glaive for anyone else, and it isn’t finessable if it is sitting on a table. So when the crafter walks up to it, it isn’t a finessable weapon.

What you are describing is a property of a specific caster. Not a property of the weapon or the feat.

Assume for a second that the character enchanting the weapon is the intended wielder. To him, it can be used with Weapon Finesse.


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SorrySleeping wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Weapons can’t use themselves at all. Characters use weapons. And characters can use any melee weapon with weapon finesse.
Are you trying to troll, or are you that daft? Weapon finesse has a very short list of weapons, some it calls out by name, that are usable with the feat.

This list is modified by a wide range of feats and abilities.

For example: a character with Fighter’s Finesse adds all weapons in all groups he has Weapon Training for to the list of Weapon Finesse weapons.


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Meirril wrote:
So under this argument a medium sized Earth Breaker can be made into an Agile weapon because it would be a light weapon for a huge creature? So agile can be placed on any melee weapon.

That actually brings up another issue:

Quote:
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

So, can a medium character make an agile small or large weapon. Because for them, the weapon isn't usable with weapon finesse.


Can you use the Weapon Creation Rules to make a 2handed reach "Glaive"-like weapon that has the "Finesse" Weapon Quality? If so, you should be able to just invest one feat in the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and then enchant it with Agile.


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Instead of twisting the Paizo rules into knots trying to Dex up a glaive, just use Path of War 3PP feats:
Polearm Dancer (counts as Weapon Finesse)
Deadly Agility

or level dip into Stalker and choose the Stalker Art Killer's Implements:

Quote:


Killer’s Implements (Ex): The stalker chooses a melee weapon he is proficient with, and gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility feats when using that weapon, even if that weapon could not normally be used with those feats. At 6th level and every five levels thereafter, the stalker chooses an additional melee weapon to gain the benefits of this ability with. The stalker can change one of these weapon choices by practicing with a new weapon for ten minutes. This stalker art counts as both Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Belafon wrote:

This is one of the many problems with the Bladed Brush feat. (Not that the idea is bad but that it creates all kinds of unanswered edge cases in combination with other materials.)

My answer is “no, you can’t enchant it with agile.”

There isn’t a 100% unassailable This is What the Rule Explicitly Says answer. But it seems clear that Bladed Brush (specifically the part that lets you finesse glaives) only works when you are wielding the weapon. It doesn’t change the properties of a glaive for anyone else, and it isn’t finessable if it is sitting on a table. So when the crafter walks up to it, it isn’t a finessable weapon.

What you are describing is a property of a specific caster. Not a property of the weapon or the feat.

Assume for a second that the character enchanting the weapon is the intended wielder. To him, it can be used with Weapon Finesse.

Ok. Let's assume that logic works. Then it's very likely Agile can never be enchanted on a weapon as few wizards take Weapon Finesse, which by your logic they would need to enchant the item.

....

That's pretty dumb.


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Or the opposite is true and any melee weapon can be enchanted with agile, because any weapon could be used with weapon finesse by someone.


Cavall wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Belafon wrote:

This is one of the many problems with the Bladed Brush feat. (Not that the idea is bad but that it creates all kinds of unanswered edge cases in combination with other materials.)

My answer is “no, you can’t enchant it with agile.”

There isn’t a 100% unassailable This is What the Rule Explicitly Says answer. But it seems clear that Bladed Brush (specifically the part that lets you finesse glaives) only works when you are wielding the weapon. It doesn’t change the properties of a glaive for anyone else, and it isn’t finessable if it is sitting on a table. So when the crafter walks up to it, it isn’t a finessable weapon.

What you are describing is a property of a specific caster. Not a property of the weapon or the feat.

Assume for a second that the character enchanting the weapon is the intended wielder. To him, it can be used with Weapon Finesse.

Ok. Let's assume that logic works. Then it's very likely Agile can never be enchanted on a weapon as few wizards take Weapon Finesse, which by your logic they would need to enchant the item.

....

That's pretty dumb.

Only if you choose to define weapon finesse as a property of the weapon creator.

My entire point is that weapon finesse is a property of the weapon user.

It does not matter if the creator has Weapon Finesse, is the correct size for the weapon, etc. Agile can be put on anything, but only functions if the conditions are met: the weapon is the correct size for the wielder and the wielder can use Weapon Finesse with the weapon.


Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

The description specifically states that the enchantment can only be placed on a weapon usable with finesse. If it worked the way you say it does it would have stated that the enchantment can only be used by a person using finesse. The wording on the requirement directly contradicts what you are saying. According to you I could enchant a crossbow with Agile even though almost no one could use the enchantment.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

The description specifically states that the enchantment can only be placed on a weapon usable with finesse.

It says the weapon has to be usable with Weapon Finesse. When the text was written, this was a shorter list. But new rules have changed what it means to be usable with weapon finesse. And now any melee weapon is potentially usable with weapon finesse, so any melee weapon can have agile placed on it.

Quote:

According to you I could enchant a crossbow with Agile even though almost no one could use the enchantment.

If there were an option to use weapon finesse with a ranged weapon, then yes. But I believe all of the current options are for melee weapons only.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

All melee weapons are usable with Weapon Finesse, depending on the user.


Not to mention

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.


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willuwontu wrote:

Not to mention

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

Nobody has been arguing for ranged weapons.

Though the lines get blurred with Empty Quiver Style and thrown weapons.

With Empty Quiver Style, ranged weapons become melee weapons.

How would you rule thrown weapons, e.g. daggers.

Where would you draw the line with Sharding weapons.

The fallback becomes: Weapon Finesse is a quality of the wielder. Agile can be placed on any weapon, but only works when the conditions are met: as a melee weapon, of the appropriate size, by someone that can use Weapon Finesse with the weapon.

This gets rid of the corner cases. Everything comes down to the person using the weapons and how he is using the weapon on any given attack.


And I guess we should mention that there are melee weapons that are not usable with weapon finesse. Those would be melee weapons that are not light, not explicit, and are not in any fighter group.


Melkiador wrote:
And I guess we should mention that there are melee weapons that are not usable with weapon finesse. Those would be melee weapons that are not light, not explicit, and are not in any fighter group.

Isn’t everything a light weapon with respect to some sized creature?


Lelomenia wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
And I guess we should mention that there are melee weapons that are not usable with weapon finesse. Those would be melee weapons that are not light, not explicit, and are not in any fighter group.
Isn’t everything a light weapon with respect to some sized creature?

It's not enough to be light. The weapon finesse feat also requires it to be "made for a creature of your size category".


To me it sounds like Agile looks at whether the weapon can normally be used with w. finesse for the crafter's size. Aka a large crafter can give agile to a large or medium dagger but not a huge dagger. This comes with the caveat that only a large creature (baring some abilities) can wield a large dagger and still benefit from agile.

Allowing a crafter to enchant by their personal capabilities would open a huge can of worms where a piercing weapon can have vorpal, ranged weapons can get melee enchantment, etc.

If a character can give enchantments (ex: magus, warpriest, etc.) and they are able to meet the conditions (ex: bladed brush, weapon versatility), then I dont see why they can add the enchanment using those abilities. This would ofcourse make such abilities much more valuable.


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Temperans wrote:
Allowing a crafter to enchant by their personal capabilities would open a huge can of worms where a piercing weapon can have vorpal, ranged weapons can get melee enchantment, etc.

It'd depend on the enchant.

"A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon." "Being" is a quality of the weapon. But agile specifies "usable", which is a quality of the wielder. If vorpal instead said, "be usable as", then it would have an issue.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:

The fallback becomes: Weapon Finesse is a quality of the wielder. Agile can be placed on any weapon, but only works when the conditions are met: as a melee weapon, of the appropriate size, by someone that can use Weapon Finesse with the weapon.

This gets rid of the corner cases. Everything comes down to the person using the weapons and how he is using the weapon on any given attack.

Or strangely enough you only look at the weapon in a vacuum to determine if it can be used with finesse. Nothing else not the potential wielder not any spells cast on it, or other things that could change the outcome just the weapon. Which also gets rid of corner cases without the enchantments wording not meaning what it says.


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Talonhawke wrote:


Or strangely enough you only look at the weapon in a vacuum to determine if it can be used with finesse. Nothing else not the potential wielder not any spells cast on it, or other things that could change the outcome just the weapon. Which also gets rid of corner cases without the enchantments wording not meaning what it says.

Of course, we are almost never supposed to look at a rule in a vacuum, but instead at how it relates to other rules.

And the enchantment's wording means exactly what it says. It's just that that meaning has changed over time. Honestly, you're the one trying to add words to the text to make it mean what you want it to mean. Words like "Normally", which are not specified in the text.


Melkiador wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Allowing a crafter to enchant by their personal capabilities would open a huge can of worms where a piercing weapon can have vorpal, ranged weapons can get melee enchantment, etc.

It'd depend on the enchant.

"A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon." "Being" is a quality of the weapon. But agile specifies "usable", which is a quality of the wielder. If vorpal instead said, "be usable as", then it would have an issue.

Which is why I said can of worms. I still remember how badly debated things like mixing bladebound with some weapon altering abilities can be. This would add to that with some people saying you can, others saying nope, etc.


I didn't say look at the rule in a vaccum I said look at the weapon in the vacuum can the weapon on its own be used with Finesse? That lets you know if it can be enchanted with agile. The rule for enchanting it only looks at that one thing.

It's ability to be enchanted doesn't depend on someone somewhere having an ability anymore than Vorpal would change if you had a way to make a piercing weapon deal slashing damage. I mean if I can deal slashing damage with it why then it is a slashing melee weapon.

Edit: What words is my interpretation adding?

This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse. The weapon is not usable with finesse the wielder is able to circumvent that restriction when using it not for every other purpose.

I'll ask this do you think that if we were to get a developer response either through FAQ or through a note in the Additional Resources guide, would it support 1. Any weapon goes or 2. Only weapons anyone can use with finesse?


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But no weapon can be used on its own. There has to be a wielder. And even if the weapon is light or explicit, then it still has to be the right size for the wielder.

I'd actually feel pretty sure they'd allow agile with other weapons, because it's magic and they've gotten a lot more easy on dexterity fighting over the years.


Anything can be used as an improvised weapon. And any melee weapon can be thrown as an improvised ranged weapon. By the arguments put forward about placing Agile on a glaive any enchantment can be placed on any weapon. If that is the case why does it list the restriction in the requirement section?

My example of the crossbow would require it to be used with an Effortless Lace as an improvised melee weapon. At that point it would be a weapon capable of being used with weapon finesse and therefore a legitimate target for the agile enchantment. Doing this would obviously be a waste of time, but according to the arguments put forward on this thread it is a perfectly legal. The feat Weapon Versatility would also eliminate any restrictions on the type of damage done.

My whole point is that with feats and class abilities you can change just about anything into anything else. Using these types of abilities to circumvent restrictions is pretty cheesy and should not be done.


Yes there has to be a wielder but that wielder and what they can do with it doesn't change what the weapon is. It doesn't make an enchantment anymore viable based on the nebulous wielder who may or may not ever touch the weapon. Does someone with bladed brush have to touch a glaive first? Would a priest on another planet that might not know about Shelyn still be able to make a Finessable glaive?

And since any weapon can be as long as you have finesse any weapon should allow dex to damage even if you can't attack with it off of Dex? Agile doesn't require you to use finesse with the weapon it only requires you to have the feat. So now any weapon can deal dex to damage as long as the wielder has Finesse and the weapon would deal str damage. T


Lelomenia wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
And I guess we should mention that there are melee weapons that are not usable with weapon finesse. Those would be melee weapons that are not light, not explicit, and are not in any fighter group.
Isn’t everything a light weapon with respect to some sized creature?

The agile property requires the weapon to be appropriately sized.


Talonhawke wrote:
Yes there has to be a wielder but that wielder and what they can do with it doesn't change what the weapon is. It doesn't make an enchantment anymore viable based on the nebulous wielder who may or may not ever touch the weapon. Does someone with bladed brush have to touch a glaive first? Would a priest on another planet that might not know about Shelyn still be able to make a Finessable glaive?

If finesse were a property of the weapon, the abilities of the user would be irrelevant.

Anyone who picked up a finesse weapon would be able to use Dex-to-hit with that weapon.

E.g. masterwork is a property of the weapon, it is masterwork regardless of who uses it.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
And I guess we should mention that there are melee weapons that are not usable with weapon finesse. Those would be melee weapons that are not light, not explicit, and are not in any fighter group.
Isn’t everything a light weapon with respect to some sized creature?
The agile property requires the weapon to be appropriately sized.

No Weapon Finesse does not agile so good catch I can use agile with oversize weapons and undersized weapons as well.

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapon

Notice you don't have to be using Finesse to benefit from Agile you only have to have weapon finesse.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Anything can be used as an improvised weapon. And any melee weapon can be thrown as an improvised ranged weapon. By the arguments put forward about placing Agile on a glaive any enchantment can be placed on any weapon. If that is the case why does it list the restriction in the requirement section?

Things like Fighter's Finesse, Spear Dancing Style, and Empty Quiver Style did not exist at that point in time.

The game's rules have expanded significantly since most weapon properties were originally written (back in 3.0). There are many rules interactions that were never foreseen and the weapon property rules (like much of the game) has never been updated to accommodate those unforeseen interactions.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Yes there has to be a wielder but that wielder and what they can do with it doesn't change what the weapon is. It doesn't make an enchantment anymore viable based on the nebulous wielder who may or may not ever touch the weapon. Does someone with bladed brush have to touch a glaive first? Would a priest on another planet that might not know about Shelyn still be able to make a Finessable glaive?

If finesse were a property of the weapon, the abilities of the user would be irrelevant.

Anyone who picked up a finesse weapon would be able to use Dex-to-hit with that weapon.

E.g. masterwork is a property of the weapon, it is masterwork regardless of who uses it.

First off Finesse is a weapon property, see rapier for an example from the core rules, and that's not what it means it means that if you have a certain feat you can then use dex-to-hit.

Which means there is a definition of a weapon that can be used with weapon finesse which is clearly a different definition than being able use weapon finesse with a weapon.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Anything can be used as an improvised weapon. And any melee weapon can be thrown as an improvised ranged weapon. By the arguments put forward about placing Agile on a glaive any enchantment can be placed on any weapon. If that is the case why does it list the restriction in the requirement section?

Things like Fighter's Finesse, Spear Dancing Style, and Empty Quiver Style did not exist at that point in time.

The game's rules have expanded significantly since most weapon properties were originally written (back in 3.0). There are many rules interactions that were never foreseen and the weapon property rules (like much of the game) has never been updated to accommodate those unforeseen interactions.

No but one of the Bo9S feats did change what weapons you could apply effects from finesse to back before PF. So it's not like this was a new phenomenon.


Talonhawke wrote:


First off Finesse is a weapon property, see rapier for an example from the core rules, and that's not what it means it means that if you have a certain feat you can then use dex-to-hit.

If finesse was a property of the weapon, anyone who picked the weapon up would be able to use Dex-to-hit while holding it, there would be no need for the character to have the Weapon Finesse feat.

This is not true. The determination for Dex-to-hit is based on the wielder and his abilities.

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