Agile Glaive?


Rules Questions

51 to 79 of 79 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Talonhawke wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Anything can be used as an improvised weapon. And any melee weapon can be thrown as an improvised ranged weapon. By the arguments put forward about placing Agile on a glaive any enchantment can be placed on any weapon. If that is the case why does it list the restriction in the requirement section?

Things like Fighter's Finesse, Spear Dancing Style, and Empty Quiver Style did not exist at that point in time.

The game's rules have expanded significantly since most weapon properties were originally written (back in 3.0). There are many rules interactions that were never foreseen and the weapon property rules (like much of the game) has never been updated to accommodate those unforeseen interactions.

No but one of the Bo9S feats did change what weapons you could apply effects from finesse to back before PF. So it's not like this was a new phenomenon.

A source that did not carry over to Pathfinder.

Pathfinder copied the weapon properties verbatim from 3.5, which were in turn copied from 3.0.


Which still informs the fact that such abilities did exist at that time. So no these types of things were known about prior to PF1s release.

And I guess A weapon literally having Finesse in the weapon property line doesn't make finesse a weapon property. Finesse as a weapon property allows a non-light weapon to be used with a specific feat. You might not like that it is but it's listed as one in the core book and just doesn't do what you want it to. Also none of this is even relevant to the argument of whether or not a weapon counts as a "weapon that can be used with Weapon finesse". One of these two arguments makes the restriction meaningless in the face of proof that there were ways to do the finesse thing with other weapons before Pathfinder. Which means either they left in a pointless restriction or they meant for it to matter off of the weapon not some nebulous state of existence based on if the wielder can use the weapon with a feat that it wasn't meant to be used with.


The rapier does have a finesse property on pfsrd, but its the only one. All other possible weapons dont list it as a property but part of its rules.

So I think thats just a part of when they used the weapon building rules (which are bit broken themselves).

Question, can the estoc be given or benefit from the agile property if the user doesn't have weapon finesse or is not proficient with it?


Temperans wrote:

The rapier does have a finesse property on pfsrd, but its the only one. All other possible weapons dont list it as a property but part of its rules.

So I think thats just a part of when they used the weapon building rules (which are bit broken themselves).

It's been there since Core if I remember right I'll check my book when I get home from work.

Temperans wrote:

Question, can the estoc be given or benefit from the agile property if the user doesn't have weapon finesse or is not proficient with it?

Good question actually but I think both sides would agree that you can enchant it with Agile, as to benefit strangly the wording of Agile would say yes, it doesn't require you to be using finesse to benefit only to have the feat.


Talonhawke wrote:
It's been there since Core if I remember right I'll check my book when I get home from work.

I trust that it is/was in core. I however dont own pf books so I know the rules based on online sources; of which only pfsrd has the finesse property listed on a single weapon (the rapier).

Talonhawke wrote:
Good question actually but I think both sides would agree that you can enchant it with Agile, as to benefit strangly the wording of Agile would say yes, it doesn't require you to be using finesse to benefit only to have the feat.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure how you felt about that one given how weird (possibly unique) that rule is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Considering it's not on the legacy PRD, I highly doubt it was in the CRB.

I believe pfsrd added it on their own.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Similar wording for other weapons enchantments occur in more recent books. This kind of undercuts the idea that this is a legacy from previous versions of the game. If they continue to use similar wording in new properties, that reinforces the restrictions on the older enchantments validity.


Imo to enchant a weapon with agile it needs to be a light weapon or have listed that it could be used with weapon finesse like rapier or elven branched spear.

I think that tying an effortless lace to a one handed weapon and then further enchanting it with agile would also work.

So much for strikt rules, the rest would be up to your table if it's not PFS (I didn't read all post, might have been mentioned at some point)

Edit typos


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Similar wording for other weapons enchantments occur in more recent books. This kind of undercuts the idea that this is a legacy from previous versions of the game. If they continue to use similar wording in new properties, that reinforces the restrictions on the older enchantments validity.

Or it means they are okay with, or are impartial to, how weapon property interactions have evolved over the years.

I've seen very few instances of FAQ or Errata limiting how new rules interact with preexisting rules, and when it does occur they tend to use a sledgehammer on the offending interaction instead of subtly tweaking the rules.


Christopk-K wrote:
Imo to enchant a weapon with agile it needs to be a light weapon or have listed that it could be used with weapon finesse like rapier or elven branched spear.

Feats and class abilities that modify Weapon Finesse add to the listed weapons.

Just like anywhere else in the rules. If X changes something about A, the changes made by X propagate through to everything that interacts with A.

Example: Spellstrike allows a magus to touch spells through his weapon. These spells must be on the magus spell list and cast as a magus. If a feat or class ability were to add Cure Light Wounds to a magi's spell list, Cure Light Wounds becomes a magus spell, usable with Spellstrike. For that magus only, because what is on the magus spell list is different for that specific magus. The ability adding Cure Light Wounds to the magus spell list does not need to explicitly state the spell can be used with spellstrike.

In much the same way, if a fighter were to take Weapon Finesse + Weapon Training (heavy blades) + Fighter's Finesse, Weapon Finesse will include heavy blades for that specific fighter.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

....

In much the same way, if a fighter were to take Weapon Finesse + Weapon Training (heavy blades) + Fighter's Finesse, Weapon Finesse will include heavy blades for that specific fighter.

I'd say it would be quite a quest to find that fighter and have him enchant a glaive ;-)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Christopk-K wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

....

In much the same way, if a fighter were to take Weapon Finesse + Weapon Training (heavy blades) + Fighter's Finesse, Weapon Finesse will include heavy blades for that specific fighter.

I'd say it would be quite a quest to find that fighter and have him enchant a glaive ;-)

Only if you define Weapon Finesse as a property of the enchanter.

Which would also make is impossible for a human to enchant small size weapons or a gnome to enchant medium sized weapons.

And even then, it would in no way stop a cleric, warpriest or magus from enchanting their own weapons.


Christopk-K wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

....

In much the same way, if a fighter were to take Weapon Finesse + Weapon Training (heavy blades) + Fighter's Finesse, Weapon Finesse will include heavy blades for that specific fighter.

I'd say it would be quite a quest to find that fighter and have him enchant a glaive ;-)

And if we found a Magus that used Magus Arcana to learn a Wizard spell that a normal Magus can't learn, and that Magus made a scroll with that spell on it then another Magus could use that scroll without UMD because it was a Magus spell for the creator?

The answer is no, just in case you are wondering.

So would the weapon enchanted by said Fighter only be usable by said Fighter because he has the appropriate feats? Or would anyone that doesn't have the feats need to roll UMD every time he swings to get the agile enchantment to believe its ok to work?


Meirril wrote:
So would the weapon enchanted by said Fighter only be usable by said Fighter because he has the appropriate feats? Or would anyone that doesn't have the feats need to roll UMD every time he swings to get the agile enchantment to believe its ok to work?

The weapon would still be usable, that particular enchantment wouldn't for them though.

Quote:
A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Also from UMD

Quote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Agile isn't an enchantment you activate, so UMD wouldn't do anything either.


willuwontu wrote:

Also from UMD

Quote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Agile isn't an enchantment you activate, so UMD wouldn't do anything either.

All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions. However, as Weapon Finesse is a feat, unless the class feature being emulated itself grants or emulates Weapon Finesse, UMD would not circumvent the feat requirement.


Meirril wrote:
So would the weapon enchanted by said Fighter only be usable by said Fighter because he has the appropriate feats? Or would anyone that doesn't have the feats need to roll UMD every time he swings to get the agile enchantment to believe its ok to work?

An agile weapon, any agile weapon, only works if all the requirements are met by the user.

A character cannot use the Agile property on a weapon if, for example, the weapon is incorrectly sized for the user or he is not able to use weapon finesse with that weapon.

This is as true for a rapier as it is for a glaive.

Incidental wrote:
All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions. However, as Weapon Finesse is a feat, unless the class feature being emulated itself grants or emulates Weapon Finesse, UMD would not circumvent the feat requirement.
UMD wrote:
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

Emphasis mine.

Feats cannot be emulated with UMD.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

An agile weapon, any agile weapon, only works if all the requirements are met by the user.

A character cannot use the Agile property on a weapon if, for example, the weapon is incorrectly sized for the user or he is not able to use weapon finesse with that weapon.

This is as true for a rapier as it is for a glaive.

False again you can't use weapon finesse with a weapon out of your size but this is not a requirement for Agile.

Agile wrote:

Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

The only requirement for use is that if you have weapon finesse (you don't even have to use it for the weapon) you can swap Dex for Str on damage.


Talonhawke wrote:


alse again you can't use weapon finesse with a weapon out of your size but this is not a requirement for Agile.

Weapon Finesse is not usable with weapons that are inappropriately sized, and if you cannot use Weapon Finesse with the weapon you cannot use Agile with the weapon.

Can you put Agile on a weapon of any size? Yes! It just won't do anything unless the wielder meets all the requirements.


Not what it says at all it says at all, it says I have to have the feat weapon finesse.

A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. Nothing about using weapon finesse to get the bonus. Nothing about the weapon being the right size.

I mean if we are going to use a literal non-interpretive reading on the requirements of the enchantment why not the rest of the text?


Incidental wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Also from UMD

Quote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Agile isn't an enchantment you activate, so UMD wouldn't do anything either.
All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions.

This is incorrect, UMD has general rules for items.

Quote:
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

Activated items are clearly delineated from constant effect items.

Quote:
However, as Weapon Finesse is a feat, unless the class feature being emulated itself grants or emulates Weapon Finesse, UMD would not circumvent the feat requirement.

A class feature that grants the feat weapon finesse, such as unrogue finesse training, wouldn't work since it just emulates having the class feature, not the benefits of the class feature.

Quote:
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Since you'd only be counted as having the class feature, emulating one that grants the feat would do nothing.

Emulating something like swashbuckler’s finesse would work (I think, may not though), since the ability itself functions as weapon finesse.


Talonhawke wrote:

Not what it says at all it says at all, it says I have to have the feat weapon finesse.

A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. Nothing about using weapon finesse to get the bonus. Nothing about the weapon being the right size.

I mean if we are going to use a literal non-interpretive reading on the requirements of the enchantment why not the rest of the text?

The sentence you omitted from Agile

Agile wrote:
This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

With the reference back to Weapon Finesse:

Weapon Finesse wrote:
With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category

Emphasis mine.

A weapon made for creature not of the wielder's size is not usable with Weapon Finesse. The Agile property will not work with it.

willuwontu wrote:

All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions.

This is incorrect, UMD has general rules for items.

Quote:
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
Activated items are clearly delineated from constant effect items.

They are delineated by frequency of checks, not by what can be emulated.

Swashbuckler's Finesse may work for some weapons, requiring a check once an hour. Swashbuckler's finesse both adds and removes weapons that can be used with it.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Incidental wrote:
All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions.

This is incorrect, UMD has general rules for items.

Quote:
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
Activated items are clearly delineated from constant effect items.
They are delineated by frequency of checks, not by what can be emulated.
Quote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Emphasis Mine.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

Not what it says at all it says at all, it says I have to have the feat weapon finesse.

A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. Nothing about using weapon finesse to get the bonus. Nothing about the weapon being the right size.

I mean if we are going to use a literal non-interpretive reading on the requirements of the enchantment why not the rest of the text?

The sentence you omitted from Agile

Agile wrote:
This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

With the reference back to Weapon Finesse:

Weapon Finesse wrote:
With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category

Emphasis mine.

A weapon made for creature not of the wielder's size is not usable with Weapon Finesse. The Agile property will not work with it.

First you will notice I did include that when i corrected you the first time.

Second.That's only a restriction for enchanting the weapon not to use it. ?But by your logic on what that means for opening up the weapon for enchanting since someone can use it with finesse anyone can use agile if they have the feat. They just don't get to attack with Dex only damage with it. Because that is what your meaning of the requirement line says that as long as some nebulous person can use finesse with the weapon it can be enchanted with it. Well once on the weapon it doesn't say you have to use the feat to benefit only that you have to have the feat.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Meirril wrote:
So would the weapon enchanted by said Fighter only be usable by said Fighter because he has the appropriate feats? Or would anyone that doesn't have the feats need to roll UMD every time he swings to get the agile enchantment to believe its ok to work?

An agile weapon, any agile weapon, only works if all the requirements are met by the user.

A character cannot use the Agile property on a weapon if, for example, the weapon is incorrectly sized for the user or he is not able to use weapon finesse with that weapon.

This is as true for a rapier as it is for a glaive.

Incidental wrote:
All magic items with effects on the user are activateable under UMD rules, which is why UMD is employable on items with continuous bonuses with alignment restrictions. However, as Weapon Finesse is a feat, unless the class feature being emulated itself grants or emulates Weapon Finesse, UMD would not circumvent the feat requirement.
UMD wrote:
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

Emphasis mine.

Feats cannot be emulated with UMD.

The reason I'm fighting against applying Agile to weapons that need special circumstances to qualify for use with Weapon Finesse is because the Agile enchantment doesn't check to see if you qualify to use it with Weapon Finesse, it only checks to see if you have the feat Weapon Finesse.

So if you happened to get a Glaive, but you didn't have the feat Bladed Brush you couldn't use your Dex to hit, but the Agile enchantment would allow you to use Dex to damage.

Arguing that if you can't use the feat you can't use the enchant is silly. The enchantment doesn't say 'if you use dex to hit you can use dex to damage', it just asks if you have the Weapon Finesse feat and nothing else.

So not ignoring the restriction on what items the enchant can be placed is important. Otherwise we'll have Gunslingers taking weapon finesse so they can throw Agile on every firearm to get dex to damage.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Feats cannot be emulated with UMD.

I literally just said that.

Incidental wrote:
However, as Weapon Finesse is a feat, unless the class feature being emulated itself grants or emulates Weapon Finesse, UMD would not circumvent the feat requirement.

Were you confused about that something?


willuwontu wrote:

This is incorrect, UMD has general rules for items.

Quote:
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
Activated items are clearly delineated from constant effect items.
You contradict the text of UMD, which is weird, because you quote it. Ongoing effects are still activated. They’re literally described in the text you quoted. You make the “relevant Use Magic Device check” as per the other activation rules. You know, the ones in the sentence before that one, and before that?


Incidental wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

This is incorrect, UMD has general rules for items.

Quote:
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
Activated items are clearly delineated from constant effect items.
You contradict the text of UMD, which is weird, because you quote it. Ongoing effects are still activated. They’re literally described in the text you quoted. You make the “relevant Use Magic Device check” as per the other activation rules. You know, the ones in the sentence before that one, and before that?

It's almost like there's a period between the activated line and the ongoing effects line.

Similarly

Quote:
You need to check your hydraulics before using a bobcat to knock down a wall. If you use a bobcat to move debris, you need to check the hydraulics on the bucket periodically to look for issues.

This does not mean that knocking down a wall and moving debris are the same, just that you need to do that same thing occasionally for them.


willuwontu wrote:
It's almost like there's a period between the activated line and the ongoing effects line.

The next sentence directly references back. Discussion of the topic, and further clarification, continues throughout the paragraph.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
It's almost like there's a period between the activated line and the ongoing effects line.
The next sentence directly references back. Discussion of the topic, and further clarification, continues throughout the paragraph.

Fair, I see it now.

51 to 79 of 79 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Agile Glaive? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.