Character Level vs Monster HD


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How do the two interact for prerequisites? I'm looking at altering a medium fire elemental, which has 4 HD, and giving it Eldritch Heritage, which requires character level 3.


By definition racial HD do not count toward character level. If a monster has nothing but racial HD then it has an effective character level of 0.

Glossary wrote:

Character Level

The total levels of the character, which is the sum of all class levels held by that character.


Not so; hit dice = character level for such creatures. Though it's in a really hard place to find, and you could make an argument that it only applies to spell effects, though that'd leave monsters without any means of healing naturally over time. The specific language of the last sentence, along with the ramifications of natural healing, lead me to believe that it's a very badly placed global rule.


Interesting. So does this mean that a druid's animal companion can qualify for feats like eldritch heritage, animal ally and/or leadership? (thereby allowing your minion to have a minion which can have a minon, ad nauseum)

I seem to recall another thread where it was determined that they couldn't because HD <> Character level which is a pre-req for each of those feats.

edit: After doing some additional research on it and looking at the wording. I think the intent is that whenever you are looking at an effect that changes based on character level, HD = character level. But in all other cases they are not equivalent. That seems to be the intent in any case for balance reasons.


That takes us back to the natural healing question, then. Does an elephant simply never heal over time?


blahpers wrote:
That takes us back to the natural healing question, then. Does an elephant simply never heal over time?

note I said, effect, not magical effect. Natural healing is an effect that is dependent on character level. So, it affects elephants and other creatures treating their HD as character levels. Honestly, it would be far less confusing if they just said HD instead of character level. Since I can't think of an instance where something's character level would ever be greater then it's hit dice. Whereas the opposite can happen quite easily.


IDK, I think a general “minions cant have minions” rule is enough of a patch, rather than cutting off racial HD characters from a handful of feats and having a term that means different things in different contexts.

Oh, and your fix still doesn’t stop my Leadership companion from taking Leadership herself.


DaLucaray wrote:
Oh, and your fix still doesn’t stop my Leadership companion from taking Leadership herself.

That's been true since leadership was a feat. If I take leadership and have a human fighter as my cohort by the RAW there's nothing stopping my cohort from also taking leadership and having a human fighter as their cohort, etc. etc.. Racial HD doesn't even figure into it. The only thing that even curtails it a little is the leadership feat its self.

Leadership wrote:
Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself.

So, eventually someone's cohort will have a level that makes them ineligible to take the feat. At least, until everyone above them gains 2 levels....


What stops minions from having minions is that those second degree minions are so weak compared to what you are facing, that they have a significantly high chance of dying. Stop acting like a minion’s minion’s minion is going to matter. It won’t.


LordKailas wrote:
DaLucaray wrote:
Oh, and your fix still doesn’t stop my Leadership companion from taking Leadership herself.

That's been true since leadership was a feat. If I take leadership and have a human fighter as my cohort by the RAW there's nothing stopping my cohort from also taking leadership and having a human fighter as their cohort, etc. etc.. Racial HD doesn't even figure into it.

I mean, your earlier thesis seemed to be “lets not rule ‘Character Level’ to be the same as ‘Hit Die’ for the purposes of feat prerequisites because that stops an infinite minion loop” and I though “hey, thats restrictive and complicated plus it doesnt even prevent minion chains from happening”. I dont think your needlessly complicating fix is worth stopping 75% of options for this janky thing that can also easily be 100% stopped by an easier rule that doesnt give a term two different definitions within one system. I appreciate that leadership-looping is less infinite than some other exploits but it doesn’t really help your point that much.


*sigh*

I'm not trying to "fix" anything. I'm trying to understand the rules and the intent behind them. You'll notice I stated what I felt the intent of the wording was.

You also seem to be trying to put words in my mouth in order to attack me.

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