I mean, we could always do "Str-to-AC" for heavy armor (possibly up to a cap.) I figure that would come close to balancing dex-to-damage, but Str>Dex Monks would still need something.
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Hello everyone!
I just wanted to make a note to all the people who think Dex to Damage is completely "unnecessary, stupid, doesn't make sense, etc.
As someone experienced with Fencing, I can tell you that physical might (Strength) doesn't really come into how much damage you can do when your weapon is a rapier or a dagger....
How well you fence is more dependent on your technique and agility...And both of those things are rolled into the Dexterity stat in this game.
Dueling Saber's are sharp...They can cut your nose and ears off without any resistance... If used right they are a deadly weapon.
Now someone mentioned that this damage, that is coming from quickly getting under someone's guard and stabbing them in interesting places, should be expressed with sneak attack or precision damage. My only problem with that, is that it doesn't reflect the increased benefit of being quick and agile.
Now...Realistically, I can do more damage by smashing through shields with a greatsword like Willam Walace then by precision stabbing/slashing with my Saber...But that is reflected in the things greater damage dice which gets even better as it's enchanted.
I've wielded an axe and felled tree's and I've wielded an epee and annoyed my fellow fencers...
Both are dangerous weapons if used right and both are used differently.
...
Anyway, all I'm saying is I think there is a place for a weaker, more agile fighter.
Have a good day!
Edit: Also, I someday dream of Charisma based fighting like Guybrush Threepwood. :) I want a Swashbuckler Insult Sword Fighting Module.
I'm only half kidding. I managed to pull it off in the first edition and found it greatly enjoyable.
How about giving dex-to-damage (in addition to strength to damage) for crits or under special circumstances (like when an opponent is flat footed)? Is that sufficient for people or is the world only in order when strength is useless for dex builds?
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I don't know if modern fencing is really an appropriate model for everything in fantasy swordfighting because, unless things have changed a lot since I last fenced, we are not actually pushing our blades through people hopefully penetrating armor and puncturing vital areas like someone in a life or death situation would.
Which is to say I think a general dex-to-damage option would be fine if it had a prerequisite of, say, 14 strength.
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I don't know if modern fencing is really an appropriate model for everything in fantasy swordfighting because, unless things have changed a lot since I last fenced, we are not actually pushing our blades through people hopefully penetrating armor and puncturing vital areas like someone in a life or death situation would.
Which is to say I think a general dex-to-damage option would be fine if it had a prerequisite of, say, 14 strength.
Thank you for responding Mr Cabbage!
There are still duels in some places...Spain and France I think though I don't remember the details to well.
Anyway, rapiers never really go through armor, they are narrow enough to hit the joints around it and you trust to the extreme sharpness to do the cutting job rather than Strength...It's not the most effective method in the world but it's interesting!
Look it up and you'll find some entertaining stories about ugly duelists who intentionally try to mar the faces of the pretty boys! (Actual story)
Anyway, I'm just saying that Dextarity based fighting is based off the same principles as fencing rather than traditional warfare. Therefore, it might be useful to look to it as a reference.
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Lockweood, I feel like what you are describing lines up pretty perfectly with dexterity applying to hit, not to damage. I don't really have a huge stake in this, but what you are basically saying is you just need to be quick enough to land a hit and the sharpness of the blade does the rest of the work for you.
But if a strong person and an agile person hit the same spot on the same target, it seems unlikely that the agile person's rapier will penetrate further. (And if it does, it is probably based on technique, but that's better represented by proficiency not attributes.
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Hello everyone!
I just wanted to make a note to all the people who think Dex to Damage is completely "unnecessary, stupid, doesn't make sense, etc.
As someone experienced with Fencing, I can tell you that physical might (Strength) doesn't really come into how much damage you can do when your weapon is a rapier or a dagger....
How well you fence is more dependent on your technique and agility...And both of those things are rolled into the Dexterity stat in this game.
Dueling Saber's are sharp...They can cut your nose and ears off without any resistance... If used right they are a deadly weapon.
Now someone mentioned that this damage, that is coming from quickly getting under someone's guard and stabbing them in interesting places, should be expressed with sneak attack or precision damage. My only problem with that, is that it doesn't reflect the increased benefit of being quick and agile.
Now...Realistically, I can do more damage by smashing through shields with a greatsword like Willam Walace then by precision stabbing/slashing with my Saber...But that is reflected in the things greater damage dice which gets even better as it's enchanted.
I've wielded an axe and felled tree's and I've wielded an epee and annoyed my fellow fencers...
Both are dangerous weapons if used right and both are used differently.
...
Anyway, all I'm saying is I think there is a place for a weaker, more agile fighter.
Have a good day!
Edit: Also, I someday dream of Charisma based fighting like Guybrush Threepwood. :) I want a Swashbuckler Insult Sword Fighting Module.
I'm only half kidding. I managed to pull it off in the first edition and found it greatly enjoyable.
Didn't actual historical rapiers actually the same weight as arming swords but longer? Those actually require more strength to wield effectively than an arming sword because their center of gravity is farther from the swordsman.
How often did people actually try to kill each other with epees or dueling sabers or small swords or whatever?
Game Balance is important, and not just from a 'purity of mathematics' standpoint (although that level of elegance is nice to see, it's esoteric enough to be ignored). But Game Balance is important because another way to say 'game balance' is 'being fair to your players'. And honestly, when being fair to my players clashes with 'realism', I will choose the former every time.
Legolas keeps up with Gimli.
If our fantasy game doesn't allow for that, or only allows for it in a very restrictive sense (you gotta go Rogue, bruh, don't worry about the fact that Str dudes can be Fighers, Paladins, or Barbarians), we have failed our players.
HOWEVER...
If we really need to get down and dirty with a real life melee, well then, let's remember that hit points are a game representation of overall character health, and that damage points are a game representation of how effective your 6 seconds of attack were against that person's health (although 'realism' is a word that shouldn't be within a mile of the phrase 'hit points', but that's a topic for another time).
Now, if we're being realistic, a strong person will hit harder, but a nimble person will hit more times within that same 6 second period. So, Strength characters hit harder, but Dexterity fighters will get in more attacks per turn, right? Oh, nope, sure don't. Why? Because it would be a game balance nightmare.
So, what do we do? We can't give Dex fighters extra attacks, it's super hard. How about we just give them the same attacks, but also the same damage as Strength fighters? Once again, damage is just how effective your 6 seconds of attack were, and whether it's three quick fencing jabs to soft spots or a single crushing blow from a warhammer, you're equally hosed... but the rules don't bear that out. Where's the realism?!
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Game Balance is important, and not just from a 'purity of mathematics' standpoint (although that level of elegance is nice to see, it's esoteric enough to be ignored). But Game Balance is important because another way to say 'game balance' is 'being fair to your players'. And honestly, when being fair to my players clashes with 'realism', I will choose the former every time.
Legolas keeps up with Gimli.
If our fantasy game doesn't allow for that, or only allows for it in a very restrictive sense (you gotta go Rogue, bruh, don't worry about the fact that Str dudes can be Fighers, Paladins, or Barbarians), we have failed our players.
HOWEVER...
If we really need to get down and dirty with a real life melee, well then, let's remember that hit points are a game representation of overall character health, and that damage points are a game representation of how effective your 6 seconds of attack were against that person's health (although 'realism' is a word that shouldn't be within a mile of the phrase 'hit points', but that's a topic for another time).
Now, if we're being realistic, a strong person will hit harder, but a nimble person will hit more times within that same 6 second period. So, Strength characters hit harder, but Dexterity fighters will get in more attacks per turn, right? Oh, nope, sure don't. Why? Because it would be a game balance nightmare.
So, what do we do? We can't give Dex fighters extra attacks, it's super hard. How about we just give them the same attacks, but also the same damage as Strength fighters? Once again, damage is just how effective your 6 seconds of attack were, and whether it's three quick fencing jabs to soft spots or a single crushing blow from a warhammer, you're equally hosed... but the rules don't bear that out. Where's the realism?!
You balance it by giving Dex builds better mobility, reflex saves, and touch AC even as they fall a little behind in damage as well as giving dex weapons abilities like agile that allow them to be relatively more effective weapons to make multiple attacks with. They get all of that on top of having the versatility of being just as accurate while attacking in melee and at range while the paladin friend can only really ever hit anything in melee while being bad at actually closing distance.
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Lockweood, I feel like what you are describing lines up pretty perfectly with dexterity applying to hit, not to damage. I don't really have a huge stake in this, but what you are basically saying is you just need to be quick enough to land a hit and the sharpness of the blade does the rest of the work for you.
But if a strong person and an agile person hit the same spot on the same target, it seems unlikely that the agile person's rapier will penetrate further. (And if it does, it is probably based on technique, but that's better represented by proficiency not attributes.
You present a good point Mr. Morgan! (Pun not initially intended)
Allow me to present an appropriate riposte!
Think of it like Sneak attack dice dependent on speed rather than surprise.
A dexterity bonus to hit just means you actually connected because the guy couldn't dodge in time and you got under his guard.
A dexterity bonus to damage means you slashed the guy across the stomach and disemboweled him. (Sorry for the gory picture)
Your increased manuel dexterity allowed you to flick the sword downwards across his belly rather than bounce off his ribs.
Contrast this with Strength.
A strength bonus to hit means that you ploughed through his guard and reached his skin.
A strength bonus to damage means that your axe bit deeper into his skull.
Your increased might allowed you to quickly smash the guy with an overhead chop, overpowering his shield arm and biting into his head.
...
Do you see what I mean?
I came back to this after making dinner so I would like to say something...
Sorry everyone....I kinda derailed the thread in a different direction...Wasn't my intention.
We can borrow from real life in order to make the themes of the game make sense...But if you take it too far you risk making the fantasy game loose it's charm.
Find the balance if you can...
...
...
Also, you fight like a Dairy Farmer!
Good Evening
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Why are we talking about realism in this thread? Good question. Aside from humble-bragging, it's distracting from the real reason OP wants dex to damage: Having to focus on dex and str takes away from points they could be using to buff all their other stats. It's a min/max argument that has gone overboard for years by players who want their dex bonus to affect everything important (to hit, dmg, AC, reflex, skills) so they can dump str (min) and max out everything else.
It's an even more imbalanced proposition in PF2 with the ability to have 18's in everything, and it's less important than ever to have extra stat bonus damage when the average extra damage from a +1 longsword (4.5) for example is greater than a +4 bonus anyway.
This argument is not about playing a certain style of character. You can already do that. It's about min/maxxers arguing for more juice.
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If a feat allows Dex to damage, there must be another feat that makes you use Str for AC, Reflex saves and ranged hits.
How's that?
If a feat allows Dex to damage, there must be another feat that makes you use Str for AC, Reflex saves and ranged hits.
How's that?
There is for AC. you need more strength for more bulk of heavy armor.
and thrown weapons are str?Now, I agree that heavy armor has too much penalty attached to it.
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I still like my idea back when dex to damage was being discussed before. I think dex to damage is lazy and it doesn't make sense why someone with dumped str and high dex does the same amount of damage as someone with high dex and high str. I think a cool little niche for dex character would be criticals.
They should add a new weapon type which allows half of your dex modifier to be added to your critical threat. So if you have +4 dex you can crit at 8 higher than their AC instead of +10. They should use this very sparringly only on weapons that are low damage dice. I'm thinking rapier, maybe the katana, shortsword, dagger.
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Since the game is already centered around this whole extra dice philosophy, what if we made finesse weapons deal bonus dice of damage when used with Dexterity. Perhaps with a Finesse value, similar to Deadly?
"Finesse: You can add your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls with a Finesse weapon instead of your Strength modifier. If you do, your attack with the weapon deals the listed additional damage. You do not add your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a finesse weapon."
Or something to that effect. That way, finesse weapons have a distinct flavor, Strength characters aren't trying to abuse the extra damage, and we have a way of providing additional damage that ignores attributes. You would see a value like "Finesse (1d6)" next to a shortsword, or maybe even "Finesse (1d8)" next to a dagger, providing niche benefits for certain weapon types that make them better in specific circumstances. You could even say, much like Deadly, that a Legendary finesse weapon adds two of those dice instead of one.
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Actually 2d6 and 1d12 are pretty much the same, as your average is about 7 on each die, actually had this come up with a laser weapon in starfinder that did 2d4 instead of 1d8, long story short it looked better on paper, but in practice all you do id raise the lowest possible roll by 1. Granted that weapon had other problems as well (Used 10 charges per shot) but in the end it wound up doing the same damage as a normal equal level laser weapon.
Now granted the accuracy improvement counts for something, it's not all that much stronger, still problematic though and the idea could use some work.
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Ah in that case it is better. It still leads to the weird situation of the 18 str character doing the same damage with a short sword as a 8 str character. I'm not sure that is something to strive for.Excuse me while I cut in but I thought the proposal would be to add additional Dice INSTEAD of giving any flat bonuses to the Damage.
So it would be 1d12+4 VS 2d6 +0
The Greatsword still comes out ahead almost EVERY time.
They would still get their strength bonus to damage, though. If the 18 strength character attacked with a shortsword using Dex to hit, they would deal 2d6+4 under this proposal (I think), versus 2d6-1 for the 8 strength dude.
It would certainly be useful for approximating "multiple quick strikes" but I don't know how the other math works out for it.
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If a feat allows Dex to damage, there must be another feat that makes you use Str for AC, Reflex saves and ranged hits.
How's that?,
There is for AC. you need more strength for more bulk of heavy armor.
and thrown weapons are str?Now, I agree that heavy armor has too much penalty attached to it.
Heavy Armor is not actually more AC. All armor gives +7 AC if you hit the dex cap. So the "advantage" of full plate is that you maximize your AC with a Dex of 12. Once the rogue with studded leather hits 20 dex, or once the druid in hide armor hits 18 Dex they will have the same AC as you (and a higher touch armor class).
In PF2 the only reasons someone would choose to wear heavy armor are:
- My mental image of my character is wearing plate mail.
- My class gives a higher proficiency bonus to heavy armor.
For everybody else, dex is just a better investment for defense.
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Ah in that case it is better. It still leads to the weird situation of the 18 str character doing the same damage with a short sword as a 8 str character. I'm not sure that is something to strive for.Excuse me while I cut in but I thought the proposal would be to add additional Dice INSTEAD of giving any flat bonuses to the Damage.
So it would be 1d12+4 VS 2d6 +0
The Greatsword still comes out ahead almost EVERY time.
They would still get their strength bonus to damage, though. If the 18 strength character attacked with a shortsword using Dex to hit, they would deal 2d6+4 under this proposal (I think), versus 2d6-1 for the 8 strength dude.
It would certainly be useful for approximating "multiple quick strikes" but I don't know how the other math works out for it.
Not quite. I specifically mentioned that ones Strength modifier was NOT added to damage in my proposal.
The idea is that the average dice of damage roughly approximate adding the ability score modifier without a direct correlation. 1d6 being ~3, scaling up to ~7 at high levels. There are lots of factors, but not adding an ability modifier to the damage was part of that suggestion.
In the above example, an 18 Strength character wielding a shortsword using Strength to hit would deal a flat 1d6 damage because he is using a shortsword in an suboptimal way, and the weapon isn't designed to utilize the wielder's strength. A Strength 18 character using Dexterity to hit would deal 2d6 damage, no modifier, the same as an 8 Strength character, but the point is that a finesse weapon isn't designed to deal damage based on the strength of the wielder, but the wielder's precision (i.e., Dexterity).
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In PF2 the only reasons someone would choose to wear heavy armor are:
- My mental image of my character is wearing plate mail.
- My class gives a higher proficiency bonus to heavy armor.For everybody else, dex is just a better investment for defense.
Not only for Defense, but for Offense (Ranged Attacks and Spells), Skills, Saving Throws, and more!
Honestly a simple enough fix for this is probably already in the works and I don't expect any huge changes given the fact that NOTHING was changed for them in the Update phase. I imagine we'll likely be seeing another +1 Armor Bonus from Medium/Heavy Armor in general, and likely the addition of BENEFICIAL Armor Traits instead of them currently only being penalties.
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I think "a high strength, high dexterity character should do more damage than a low strength, high dexterity character" is the absolute crux of my problem with how dex-to-damage works in PF1e.
I am 100% fine with Dex-to-damage as a concept, but against any implementation of it that makes your Str not matter.
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I think "a high strength, high dexterity character should do more damage than a low strength, high dexterity character" is the absolute crux of my problem with how dex-to-damage works in PF1e.
I am 100% fine with Dex-to-damage as a concept, but against any implementation of it that makes your Str not matter.
Agree 100%. I had no problem with things like trained grace, lethal grace, or shifter's edge in PF1- whereby if you are using dex to-hit and str for damage, you add some other scaling bonus to damage (twice your weapon training bonus, or half your level respectively.) All of these were great since it meant your dextrous combatant actually wanted to have enough strength to do all of that rope climbing and chandelier swinging that someone of their profile should be doing.
What I *hated* and do not want to see back was people with 7-10 strength who were competent melee fighters with no use whatsoever for strength.
I'm okay with a 7 Strength character being a competent melee fighter.
But they should be a worse melee fighter than a 14 Strength character.
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The problem is that the main way they kept strength from being completely dumpable was carrying capacity, which was widely ignored.
Even when it wasn't ignored, it was avoidable because dex weapons and armor are all light and the game is full of ways to carry equipment weightlessly:
Pack animals, porters, floating disks, party members, extra light materials like mithril, bags of holding, etc etc.
There is one way to make a Str-dump character sweat though: Shadows. :P
I had a player who was playing a Str-dump kobold wizard. He was a total powerhouse of a blaster, nearly unstoppable in combat, clutched the party out of a lot of rough places. Then as a level 10-ish party there was an encounter with a pack of shadows that was supposed to be a light diversion.
I watched this fearless wizard's player stop, do the math on his touch AC vs his Str score, and then dimension door 800 feet away and refuse to return until the rest of the party promised that every single shadow had been slain. XD
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There is one way to make a Str-dump character sweat though: Shadows. :P
I had a player who was playing a Str-dump kobold wizard. He was a total powerhouse of a blaster, nearly unstoppable in combat, clutched the party out of a lot of rough places. Then as a level 10-ish party there was an encounter with a pack of shadows that was supposed to be a light diversion.
I watched this fearless wizard's player stop, do the math on his touch AC vs his Str score, and then dimension door 800 feet away and refuse to return until the rest of the party promised that every single shadow had been slain. XD
For sure~ Stat drain is the bane of min-maxers everywhere.
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I don't agree that that means the op is a dirty horrible min maxer, though.
Then re-read OP's last post before he got called out for admitting he was exactly that and then stopped posting:
And yes, a dex fighter could boost strength and dexterity, but then you're behind on damage modifier and dice damage. You're also behind on four ability boosts at that point, if not more.
The Dex to Damage argument is for min/maxxers to get more juice. It's too greedy for my tastes when you can have an 18 in every physical stat by L10 in PF2. What else are we discussing regarding dex to damage?
Other people in this thread have convinced me there are other possible solutions to that than Dex to damage. Fine. But they should do something to make it a valid concept, agile rapier master guy shouldn't be less valid than big stompy vein asplody greatsword guy.
No, it shouldn't.
The agile rapier master guy does less damage per hit, but has advantages in other areas.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To complicate things further, we're not always talking about humans fighting other humans. In fact, that's a pretty tiny minority of fights in a lot of games.
If we're talking about realism with a strong guy and an agile guy both fighting a giant magical lizard covered head to toe in the equivalent of steel plated rhinoceros hide... edge alignment is only going to get you so far. Edge alignment and mighty thews, though, now we're really getting somewhere.
I don't buy the argument that some weapons aren't designed to be used with more strength, because that would have to be a tiny minority of edge cases and also at some point we've got magic reinforced weaponry designed to fight humans being used against literal living mountains. If using too much strength in such a case is a problem, we've got some serious issues.