Brawler's Flurry, and a versatile two-handed weapon


Rules Questions


Looking to build a (slightly nerfed, but still fully 4-armed) Kasatha Brawler in an upcoming game, and I'm hoping to put those extra arms to use by holding a reach weapon. Funny enough, the close weapon group doesn't have any of those, but I found the Versatile weapon mod. When I went to run the numbers, I realized there isn't any ruling on two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon. Found some forum answers, but of course none of them touched on the Brawler's unique flurry, because close weapons don't tend to require two hands.

1. Does making a martial reach weapon exotic (the penalty for Weapon Mods) exclude it from proficiency with weapons of the Close fighter group? I read the last sentence on weapon mods as referring to exotic weapons upgraded to require the Modified Weapon Proficiency feat. Using a martial Boarding Pike would be thematic to the campaign, but I'd rather get the disarm quality of the Ranseur.

2. What penalties am I looking at for using a two-handed weapon in a Brawler's Flurry? I can hold a light weapon in an off-hand, but would rather be able to do the full flurry with the two-handed weapon.

2a. Would trip, disarm, or sunder maneuvers made during a Brawler's Flurry with a two-handed weapon be subject to the same penalties?
2b. Throwing Maneuver Master into the mix, would the free maneuver granted on a full attack be affected by those penalties, or any other penalties from the Brawler's Flurry?

3. Is Power Attack damage on the second attack reduced by 50% for being "off-hand," even though the weapon is wielded in the same hands as the first attack?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One needs a main hand to wield a Two Handed weapon, and a character only ever has one Main Hand. (so the second weapon needs to be either One Handed or Light)

Also keep in mind, there are Off Hand considerations for One Handed and Light weapons but not for Two Handed Weapons in the Weapon Designation section in the Core Rulebook.

This is different than Flurry, as a Monk can use "Monk" weapons and get all his attacks with a single weapon. Flurry does not equal Two Weapon Fighting.


If it's part of the close weapon group you're proficient in it. No limitations apply.

The brawler's flurry tells you that attacks made with it are made at your full (i.e. 1x) strength mod regardless of whether you use a weapon in your off hand or in both hands. That tells you you can use a 2H weapon. It also specifies you can use one weapon in the flurry, you don't have to switch weapons.

Maneuvers generally are subject to the same modifiers as the attacks they replace. You'll take TWF and BAB penalties.

TWF penalties apply to all attacks you make so by the same principle the free maneuver would take the TWF penalty. It's like stacking TWF and rapid shot.

Nothing about the brawler's flurry changes power attack. If you're using a 2H weapon whether that's a bayonet or a tactically adapted ranseur it's a +3 damage bonus per point of attack penalty.


1.I would assume that you are not proficient flat out by looking at the cleric line for weapon mods.


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1. If you had tried to wield a Dual-Balanced Handaxe, then you'd suffer from nonproficiency penalties. Using the Versatile modification to add a weapon to the Close weapon group is the opposite of what the last sentence forbids.
Although I hardly believe it was intended, slapping the Versatile modification on weapons would give you proficiency with them as a Brawler.

*

2. Brawler's Flurry shares most language with the Monk's Flurry, and I don't see any reason why it would function differently. Just slap a -2 penalty on all attacks in your full-attack. That includes any maneuvers you make as part of that full-attack.


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BlueCherryFizz wrote:
1. Does making a martial reach weapon exotic (the penalty for Weapon Mods) exclude it from proficiency with weapons of the Close fighter group?

Nope, a Brawler is proficient with every weapon in the close weapon group. Modified exotic weapons would still require Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept because while proficient, the weapon modification rule prefent you from using them.

BlueCherryFizz wrote:
2. What penalties am I looking at for using a two-handed weapon in a Brawler's Flurry? I can hold a light weapon in an off-hand, but would rather be able to do the full flurry with the two-handed weapon.

No one knows for sure (confer this thread), but everyone plays it so it's like Flurry of Blows.

BlueCherryFizz wrote:
2a. Would trip, disarm, or sunder maneuvers made during a Brawler's Flurry with a two-handed weapon be subject to the same penalties?

Combat maneuver checks are attack rolls. Any CMC made with a weapon would suffer the penalty, those made without weapons wouldn't.

BlueCherryFizz wrote:
2b. Throwing Maneuver Master into the mix, would the free maneuver granted on a full attack be affected by those penalties, or any other penalties from the Brawler's Flurry?

Same as above.

BlueCherryFizz wrote:
3. Is Power Attack damage on the second attack reduced by 50% for being "off-hand," even though the weapon is wielded in the same hands as the first attack?

Again, no one knows for certain, but I presume everyone plays it that you get 3:1 ratio on all attacks.


Talonhawke wrote:
1.I would assume that you are not proficient flat out by looking at the cleric line for weapon mods.

My interpretation is that it prevents abilities with specific weapons, not weapon groupings. Additionally, given the preceding sentence, I suspect that the last sentence is referring to weapons of the new "modified" weapon tier beyond the "exotic" category, and not weapons that have been modified.

Derklord wrote:
No one knows for sure (confer this thread), but everyone plays it so it's like Flurry of Blows.

That link will make a good citation if my GM contests. In it, you pointed out that there is no designated primary/off-hand. Is this true for Kasatha? Their text reads, "Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands."

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Kasatha entry is parroting the normal rules for Hands, likely because it is a four armed creature, so that the reader knows of the limitations they have with weapons in that regard.

One main hand, three (or more) off hands. It is the same for any other multi-limbed bypeddle that wields manufactured weapons.


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BlueCherryFizz wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
1.I would assume that you are not proficient flat out by looking at the cleric line for weapon mods.
My interpretation is that it prevents abilities with specific weapons, not weapon groupings. Additionally, given the preceding sentence, I suspect that the last sentence is referring to weapons of the new "modified" weapon tier beyond the "exotic" category, and not weapons that have been modified.

The rules say "A character proficient with a specific weapon (such as a cleric’s proficiency with her deity’s favored weapon) is not automatically proficient with a modified weapon of that type." - being proficient with a weapon group is most certainly not proficieny with "a specific weapon". Basically, for purpose of proficiency, it's like that a modified weapon does not has the same name as the base weapon: You may be proficient with a "greataxe", but not with a "modified greataxe".

BlueCherryFizz wrote:
That link will make a good citation if my GM contests. In it, you pointed out that there is no designated primary/off-hand. Is this true for Kasatha? Their text reads, "Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands."

Thanks for bringing my migrain back! ;-)

According to this FAQ, you only occur TWF penalties when actually using the TWF rules to gain (a) bonus attack(s). A 20th level fighter could wield four different weapons, using different weapons for each for his iterative attacks, and no TWF penalty would occur.
Yet, as written, the strength bonus to damage, Power Attack, etc. still affect your off-hand differently, because they don't discriminate between off-hand weapon used for TWF and a weapon you happen to wield in the hand you haven't made your first attack with, even though you don't use any special rules.

Brawler's Flurry makes it even worse, because while it says that you don't to use two weapons, it doesn't explain what happens to those attacks that have to be made with an off-hand weapon. The two things are mutually exclusive.

ISurprisingly, it get better when using a weapon two-handed, because according to the Armor Spikes FAQ, we know that when wielding a two-handed weapon, you're using both your main-hand and your off-hand for the same weapon, so your off-hand weapon is actually the same as your main-hand one (and you get 3:1 Power Attack ratio on all attacks).
THere's still the TWF penalty to look at, because you'd take the full -4 TWF penalty if you don't use a light weapon as your your off-hand weapon (i.e. your only weapon). Because most people presume it wrong, you actually can two-hand a light weapon - you woudln't get 1.5xStr when two-handing it, but the Brawler's Flurry description prevents that anyway. Unless I'm missing something, you even get to keep the 3:1 Power Attack ratio.

The interpretation basically everyone uses is that you simply gain additional attacks, like with Rapid Shot (including a fixed -2 penalty on all your attacks).
­
Which brings me to another point - you say you're "hoping to put those extra arms to use by holding a reach weapon", are you talking about wielding a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon at the same time? Because otherwise, you wouldn't profit from the extra arms.


Derklord wrote:
Which brings me to another point - you say you're "hoping to put those extra arms to use by holding a reach weapon", are you talking about wielding a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon at the same time? Because otherwise, you wouldn't profit from the extra arms.

For sure. Went Shield Champion, so I've got a shield in one, and an heirloom (grapple) Dan Bong in the other. Gonna do some Whirlwind Attack trips. I might consider a composite bow to accompany my reach weapon; Keep a nice perimiter for some light sniping.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

With Flurry and a Two Handed Weapon (Monk or otherwise able to use with Flurry), you should get the full str bonus (1.5) for two handing the weapon.

This is not the same as TWF with the thing, unless you are using one (1) Two Handed Weapon with both a main and off hand, like a Kasatha wielding it as one of the two weapons when TWF, or one of three when Multi-weapon fighting.


thaX wrote:
With Flurry and a Two Handed Weapon (Monk or otherwise able to use with Flurry), you should get the full str bonus (1.5) for two handing the weapon.

cMonk's Flurry of Blows, and Brawler's Flurry explicitly say you get 1xStr, no matter the handedness.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah... Not that familiar with the class.

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