Magic Weapon Power Normalization


General Discussion

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Doktor Weasel said wrote:

One idea I've seen that I think has merit is to give bonus magic dice based on the handedness. For example, one handed weapons always get D6 dice from magic and two-handed always get D10s. So a +5 dagger would be 1d4 + 5d6, while a +5 Greataxe would be 1d12 + 5d10. That gives averages of 20 for the dagger and 34

for the greataxe instead of 15 and 39. This would make the axe do 1.7 times the damage of the dagger instead of 2.6. Smaller gap, but still significant.

I still feel this actually limit weapon choice more than the current system does. Why would you bother with a d12 weapon once you start getting +1 or +2 and more in potency runes. The two-handed d10 weapons would quickly be better since all you trade is 1 damage on average for traits like reach, forceful or fatal.

And your specific example would actually make weapons like longsword worse than it currently is while making whips, starknifes, daggers better, thus once again likely removing the use of d8 weapons once you hit the mid levels.

master_marshmallow said wrote:
Imo, d4 and d12 weapons shouldn't even exist if the potency damage scales as high as it does, otherwise the design end of things becomes too difficult to balance on the DM's side of the screen. I'd feel forced to arbitrarily adjust enemy HP based on the weapons used to accommodate for pacing issues caused by the discrepancy. My own playtest left me with a sour taste for the system as it is written because I relied on crits to match average damage of those using d12 weapons. Felt like a bug in the design, not a feature.

Well didn't you get other bonuses then by carrying a shield or fighting with two weapons? I think overall unless you are trading damage for armor you can get damage pretty similar to d12 weapons with most builds. Of course a fighter fighting with a single dagger will be far below a greatsword, but a rogue would get pretty similar damage and even closer if they chose a shortsword instead.

I think the biggest concern can be regarding melee vs ranged damage that pretty much tops at d8 and a lot of classes are currently limited to the shortbows d6.


The DM of wrote:
Btw, whips are nonlethal if you didn't notice.

Nonlethal is less of a downside in PF2 since most of the things that are immune to it are constructs, as you can now bludgeon into unconsciousness a ghost or an ooze.


Nettah wrote:
Doktor Weasel said wrote:

One idea I've seen that I think has merit is to give bonus magic dice based on the handedness. For example, one handed weapons always get D6 dice from magic and two-handed always get D10s. So a +5 dagger would be 1d4 + 5d6, while a +5 Greataxe would be 1d12 + 5d10. That gives averages of 20 for the dagger and 34

for the greataxe instead of 15 and 39. This would make the axe do 1.7 times the damage of the dagger instead of 2.6. Smaller gap, but still significant.

I still feel this actually limit weapon choice more than the current system does. Why would you bother with a d12 weapon once you start getting +1 or +2 and more in potency runes. The two-handed d10 weapons would quickly be better since all you trade is 1 damage on average for traits like reach, forceful or fatal.

And your specific example would actually make weapons like longsword worse than it currently is while making whips, starknifes, daggers better, thus once again likely removing the use of d8 weapons once you hit the mid levels.

master_marshmallow said wrote:
Imo, d4 and d12 weapons shouldn't even exist if the potency damage scales as high as it does, otherwise the design end of things becomes too difficult to balance on the DM's side of the screen. I'd feel forced to arbitrarily adjust enemy HP based on the weapons used to accommodate for pacing issues caused by the discrepancy. My own playtest left me with a sour taste for the system as it is written because I relied on crits to match average damage of those using d12 weapons. Felt like a bug in the design, not a feature.

Well didn't you get other bonuses then by carrying a shield or fighting with two weapons? I think overall unless you are trading damage for armor you can get damage pretty similar to d12 weapons with most builds. Of course a fighter fighting with a single dagger will be far below a greatsword, but a rogue would get pretty similar damage and even closer if they chose a shortsword instead.

I think the biggest...

The bonuses I got were in that I got to swing with more than a 5% crit chance twice, and relied on combining a single die of sneak attack with a single die of deadly for an extra 2d6 damage on a crit with star knives. My turns went Feint -> Double Slice. Doing this effectively used all my feats. The paladin with no feat investment did comparable damage by just swinging a d12 weapon, and I could never compare to a crit.


master_marshmallow said wrote:
The bonuses I got were in that I got to swing with more than a 5% crit chance twice, and relied on combining a single die of sneak attack with a single die of deadly for an extra 2d6 damage on a crit with star knives. My turns went Feint -> Double Slice. Doing this effectively used all my feats. The paladin with no feat investment did comparable damage by just swinging a d12 weapon, and I could never compare to a crit.

Well so you had two attacks at full to hit with 2d4+2d6 dmg vs 2d12 attacks. That seems pretty close. Sure you had to spend two feats, but you also got fighter dedication from that. The feint aspect I would assume was pretty bad though since perception is too high on the monsters atm.

Not to mention that you had deadly, agile and throwing traits.
Maybe going for a demoralize build with Dread Striker could have been more effectively.

EDIT: I can see you mention it was 1 sneak attack. Was it level 4? If so did either of you have magical weapons yet?


Nettah wrote:
Doktor Weasel said wrote:

One idea I've seen that I think has merit is to give bonus magic dice based on the handedness. For example, one handed weapons always get D6 dice from magic and two-handed always get D10s. So a +5 dagger would be 1d4 + 5d6, while a +5 Greataxe would be 1d12 + 5d10. That gives averages of 20 for the dagger and 34

for the greataxe instead of 15 and 39. This would make the axe do 1.7 times the damage of the dagger instead of 2.6. Smaller gap, but still significant.

I still feel this actually limit weapon choice more than the current system does. Why would you bother with a d12 weapon once you start getting +1 or +2 and more in potency runes. The two-handed d10 weapons would quickly be better since all you trade is 1 damage on average for traits like reach, forceful or fatal.

And your specific example would actually make weapons like longsword worse than it currently is while making whips, starknifes, daggers better, thus once again likely removing the use of d8 weapons once you hit the mid levels.

Good points. I've mostly just looked at the extremes and didn't look at d8 weapons and such. The method for balancing traits vs damage die would need to be redone completely. It's tricky finding a good middle ground that doesn't bring it's own new problems into the mix. Maybe have potency only go up to +2 or +3 or something, and the rest comes from Proficiency or some other aspect of the character. The die from proficiency can be different than the weapon die. So magic would still get you to 3x or 4x the base damage die to keep the difference between weapon types, but then have the rest come from ability, making the difference not quite as huge at the high end, but still significant.


I'm all for +weapon die(dice) per plus.

I'm also for +dex to damage with finesse weapons.

Also, I would drop simpe/martial/exotic weapons.

Martial training can be better described with spread of +0 to +3 proficiency bonus and access to it.
Fighter would get to the +3(legendary) in some reasonable levels, while wizard would get max of +1, probably very late 15+ levels.

Also weapons need bigger dice, especially 2Handers, non finesse with little or no extra properties.

I.E. great-ax, 2handed, slashing damage, no extra stuff or some minor.
3d6 damage.

Oh, and get rid of d4 dice. With removed weapon categories, and bigger 2hander dice, dagger can be 1d6 without any problems.

Finesse weapons should suffer 2 dice categorie penalties.

I.E. 1hander without any special extra powerful traits would do 1d12 damage, finesse cannot be better than 1d8 with some minor traits added.

2hander max would be 3d6, so finesse 2hander could max be only 2d6, as penalty would go 3d6->2d8->2d6


Igor Horvat wrote:

I'm all for +weapon die(dice) per plus.

I'm also for +dex to damage with finesse weapons.

Also, I would drop simpe/martial/exotic weapons.

Martial training can be better described with spread of +0 to +3 proficiency bonus and access to it.
Fighter would get to the +3(legendary) in some reasonable levels, while wizard would get max of +1, probably very late 15+ levels.

Also weapons need bigger dice, especially 2Handers, non finesse with little or no extra properties.

I.E. great-ax, 2handed, slashing damage, no extra stuff or some minor.
3d6 damage.

Oh, and get rid of d4 dice. With removed weapon categories, and bigger 2hander dice, dagger can be 1d6 without any problems.

Finesse weapons should suffer 2 dice categorie penalties.

I.E. 1hander without any special extra powerful traits would do 1d12 damage, finesse cannot be better than 1d8 with some minor traits added.

2hander max would be 3d6, so finesse 2hander could max be only 2d6, as penalty would go 3d6->2d8->2d6

There's one problem here, I don't believe Paizo is going to do any 2dx or 3dx weapons and for good reason. You'll notice that weapons that were 2d6 in PF1 are now 1d12. I fail to believe that's not intentional. Because every time in PF1 an effect referred to rolling your damage dice multiple times or multiplying something by the number of weapon damage dice you roll people went berserk "Trying" to figure out what that could possibly mean.

Vital Strike says you roll your weapon damage die an extra time, people argued that Greatswords only roll an extra 1d6, not 2d6, because die is singular. Nevermind that Longswords are clearly rolling an extra d8 and the feat clearly isn't meant to be better for Longswords than Greatswords.

Mythic Vital Strike says you multiply any damage modifier you have that is normally multiplied on a crit ties the number of weapon damage dice you roll when you Vital Strike, other people argue that since a Greatsword rolls 4d6 on Vital Strike you multiple your damage by 4 times because it says the number of weapon dice, not the number of times you roll your weapon dice. Nevermind that that makes the feat twice as good for a Greatsword as it does for a Greataxe which is rolling 2d12 and thus only multiplying damage by 2.

These may be outiers, maybe not, but the point is that this bullcrap comes up anytime you have something multiplying your damage dice or multiplying something by your damage dice. And in the CRB we have Potency runes multiplying your dice and traits that add extra damage per die. If Paizo had any 2dx weapons we would already have both of these stupid arguments in PF2.

And if you don't think that's the case, buried somewhere around here already are a couple of threads where people are making this argument on the ONE example of this in the Playtest. The Dragon Claws power, which gives you claws that deal 1d4 slashing and 1d4 fire, gaining Potency effects at later levels. You have some people swearing up and down that the potency multiplies both the slashing and the fire because they are both part of the weapon damage die, nevermind that the 1d4 fire is more akin to a potency rune and nevermind tht it would make the Dragon Claws by far THE most powerful one handed weapon in the game (Better damage than a d8 one handed martial weapon and with more traits), maybe barring some exotic weapon getting to use its traits well (Actually it does more damage and has more traits than the 1H exotic weapons too), and the highest damage finesse weapon in the game.

So I do have to say, I will happily take 1dx weapons only to avoid having these shenanigans carry over from PF1.


Nettah wrote:
master_marshmallow said wrote:
The bonuses I got were in that I got to swing with more than a 5% crit chance twice, and relied on combining a single die of sneak attack with a single die of deadly for an extra 2d6 damage on a crit with star knives. My turns went Feint -> Double Slice. Doing this effectively used all my feats. The paladin with no feat investment did comparable damage by just swinging a d12 weapon, and I could never compare to a crit.

Well so you had two attacks at full to hit with 2d4+2d6 dmg vs 2d12 attacks. That seems pretty close. Sure you had to spend two feats, but you also got fighter dedication from that. The feint aspect I would assume was pretty bad though since perception is too high on the monsters atm.

Not to mention that you had deadly, agile and throwing traits.
Maybe going for a demoralize build with Dread Striker could have been more effectively.

EDIT: I can see you mention it was 1 sneak attack. Was it level 4? If so did either of you have magical weapons yet?

It was the lvl 12 playtest, so we had higher + weapons, and I built fighter with rogue dedication for attack bonus.

Remember, it cost me actions to trigger sneak attack, and requires a crit to trigger deadly, just to get comparable damage.


master_marshmallow said wrote:

It was the lvl 12 playtest, so we had higher + weapons, and I built fighter with rogue dedication for attack bonus.

Remember, it cost me actions to trigger sneak attack, and requires a crit to trigger deadly, just to get comparable damage.

Okay. Not really sure what to say about that, it seems to be a pretty poor build for a fighter. Currently finesse style fighter isn't in that good a spot in my opinion. But it really didn't seem like you got any substantial bonus or use out of using the starknifes, so why not go for different weapons. If it was all about getting crits then something like light picks seems better (assuming you actually had a good str score) that could at least do the whole 9d8+2d6+19 on a crit, which seems like a cooler thing to build around.


Edge93 wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

A bit of a side comment:

But as to the whip and it having so many abilities: IMHO a lot of these abilities should have some type of skill and or level requirements to be able to be used and or used effectively.

Or in reality; there is a very valid reason why army's did not equip their troops with whips and go to war in the past as well as today.
Often it is the exception example that seems to provide the community with the idea that everyone can do it. The best example of this I have seen in real life is the person who shoots arrows very fast and thus people think everyone should be able to do that or that it just takes a little time to learn the skill.
Note: I also think there is a bit of a carve out in that there has been examples of new ideas that come along that dramatically improve the way people use tools that for what ever reason people just did not know about or attempt before some showed them.

MDC

I mean, I'd say the reason armies didn't use whips was d4 vs. d8-12 damage. XD Large blocks of people needed to kill things fast, not finesse on them. XD

IDK, for me the weapon proficiency category does it for me as far as training requirements. A lot of people don't use those weapons because they don't feel the use in a more technical style over the much higher attack power, rather than because it requires additional work just to make a damage for abilities trade off.

Though the idea reminds me of an idea I had, which was to give Fighters an ability to temporarily add traits to their weapons somehow, like maybe rebalancing or grinding a weapon to make it Agile or Finesse, or altering something to make its heft work for tripping, etc.

Most weapons I know do not have a tag that says I do 1dX when I buy them.

Also so far as I know in PF2-B there is no way to say weapon X is harder to use then weapon Y but after you invest significant time weapon Y is generally better to use.

MDC


Nettah wrote:
master_marshmallow said wrote:

It was the lvl 12 playtest, so we had higher + weapons, and I built fighter with rogue dedication for attack bonus.

Remember, it cost me actions to trigger sneak attack, and requires a crit to trigger deadly, just to get comparable damage.

Okay. Not really sure what to say about that, it seems to be a pretty poor build for a fighter. Currently finesse style fighter isn't in that good a spot in my opinion. But it really didn't seem like you got any substantial bonus or use out of using the starknifes, so why not go for different weapons. If it was all about getting crits then something like light picks seems better (assuming you actually had a good str score) that could at least do the whole 9d8+2d6+19 on a crit, which seems like a cooler thing to build around.

I was testing a "Batman" build, and I figured if a fighter can't make the starknife work, no one can.


master_marshmallow said wrote:
I was testing a "Batman" build, and I figured if a fighter can't make the starknife work, no one can.

That actually sounds fun. However I don't think I would go for fighter as the core class for a starknife wielding batman. I assume you chose them to be a substitute for batarangs, so you should do that and throw them instead for the build. Batman being the greatest detective would likely benefit from either a ranger or rogue core (fits the detective role better in my mind) and I also think they could do some fun stuff with throwing starknifes. Maybe pick up some alchemist feats for some bombs (gadgets) as well.

I know this is entire off-topic but I want to try to build that, i'll see if I have any luck coming up with a good build. (That said he will likely not be the best for the specific scenario, which I assume was Heroes of Undarin, both because it's pretty much only focused on combat and secondly it's quite limiting in terms of equipment and I would want returning starknifes)

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