Ok. Numerous questions after a lot of reading and digging. I'm going to number them for easiness. But here is some background. I posted recently about a gunslinger build and trying to figure out the Feat tree for what I want to do and I got a lot of great responses. Thank you all!
I got the build done for the most part and so I started thinking about crafting my own guns, evolving and upgrading them as I go. So I figured a plan to get Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor as feats at just about the right time in game, but I am trying to figure out both costs in gold, required materials, and DC's of checks.
Also, I have Hero Lab and that is confusing me even more when it comes to crafting.
I also added the Spark of Creation trait to get the +1 and the 5% discount. So here we go.
1) In Hero Lab I added a Masterwork Revolver and then clicked the craft button and it went from 4300gp to 1433gp, 3sp, and 3cp. I am assuming that it is just defaulting to the 1/3 price for crafting items, instead of the 1/2 price that the Gunslinger trait gives you. But that got me thinking can I use the Master Craftsman Feat with Craft (Firearms) to make a revolver at 1/3 of the price instead of 1/2 the price for the Gunsmith Feat? And if so, does that then make it a DC check instead of being able to do it with no DC check? And if it does require a DC check, what would it be?
Moving on to magical crafting...
2) If I don't have the required spell as a caster (which I won't because I'm not taking a caster class), I see three options (I think). 1) Add 5 to the DC of the check. 2) Buy the number of spells and cast them myself (which I can do with a use magical device skill check or spell craft skill check correct?), Or 3) I need to do both - Add 5 to the check and buy the number of spells needed.
3) If I do need to have the spells, is that part of the cost of the crafting, or is that in addition to the crafting costs? I'm assuming the latter but I wanted to make sure.
4) How do I calculate the DC of the check? I listed a few examples and want to see if my math is correct. I am planning on adding one enhancement at a time at higher levels.
5) How do I calculate the cost? I got the 5% discount on the base crafting cost, and I'm assuming I don't get the 5% off of the Spell as that is an in game purchase between me and an NPC.
[+1 Distance Revolver #1 (Level 6)] (actually crafting it at level 7, but level 6 is the minimum to create it correct? Adding both +1 & Distance
DC = Base 5 + Distance 6 + No Spell 5 = 16 (I calculated it with both the cost of the spell and the increased 5 to DC, to play it safe for now)
3600g + (2 x 180gp) = 3960gp (with the 5% discount)
[+1 Training, Distance Revolver #2 (Level 9)] with the Feat Improved Critical which I won't have. (This is to add training to the previous one)
DC = Base 5 + Training 3 + No Feat 5 + No Spell 5 = 18
4500gp + (3 x 30gp) = 4590 gp
[+1 Reliable Distance Lucky Seeking Revolver #1 (Level 15)] Adding just Seeking to it.
DC = Base 5 + Seeking 12 + No Spell 5 = 22
8100gp + (7 x 720gp) = 13,140 gp
I think that's it for now. But I would love to see if I am on the right track.
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1)
But that got me thinking can I use the Master Craftsman Feat with Craft (Firearms) to make a revolver at 1/3 of the price instead of 1/2 the price for the Gunsmith Feat?
Master Craftsman wouldn't help you make a mundane revolver, but you can use Craft (Firearms) to do so.
This would require around 48 weeks with a +20 craft bonus.****
2-5)
Here's a recent explanation of magic weapon crafting I wrote up. It should be helpful.
Main takeaway are that you can circumvent any requirement by increasing the DC by 5 (except having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat), so you don't have to wait until level fifteen to craft a +5 magic weapon. As long as your craft check is high enough.
And you don't need to supply the spells if you increase the check by 5.
Also, I'm not sure how you've reached your estimated crafting costs, but I don't think they are correct. Here's a breakdown on special abilities and enhancement bonus.
For example, the [+1 Reliable Distance Lucky Seeking Revolver] would have a total Weapon Bonus of +5. Which means the market price is 50,000 gp, and your crafting cost is 25,000 gp. Spark of Creation would lower that to 23750 gp.
2-5)Here's a recent explanation of magic weapon crafting I wrote up. It should be helpful.
Main takeaway are that you can circumvent any requirement by increasing the DC by 5 (except having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat), so you don't have to wait until level fifteen to craft a +5 magic weapon. As long as your craft check is high enough.
And you don't need to supply the spells if you increase the check by 5.
Ok. Cool. I figured that was the case with using Craft (Firearm), so the Gunsmithing Feat is super cool. And thanks for the guide. That's Awesome!
Also, I'm not sure how you've reached your estimated crafting costs, but I don't think they are correct. Here's a breakdown on special abilities and enhancement bonus.For example, the [+1 Reliable Distance Lucky Seeking Revolver] would have a total Weapon Bonus of +5. Which means the market price is 50,000 gp, and your crafting cost is 25,000 gp. Spark of Creation would lower that to 23750 gp.
This was by just adding one enhancement at a time as I gained the level to be able to do so. So the above example, I am starting from an already crafted +1 Reliable, Distance, Lucky Revolver, and I'm just adding seeking. Which I believe I can do, correct?
(1) master craftsman only allows you to meet prereqs for the craft magic arms and armor feat, which you would need to enchant a firearm. A key thing to understand here is that there are three completely different crafting systems involved in your first post: conventional crafting, which is what hero labs calculates as 1/3 market price, master craftsman, which allows a magic crafting feat that operates on a 1/2 market price basis, and the gunsmithing feat, which also operates on a 1/2 market price basis. You don’t want to use conventional crafting, because it takes forever. So ignore the 1/3 stuff.
(2) just add 5 to your check for each missing prereq.
(3) see 2.
Awesome. I am quickly learning that the Gunsmithing Feat is super important.
Do I have to add 5 to the check for a missing requirement I already added to the weapon prior?
For example let's say I have a +1 Tickling, Sneeze-inducing Feather
I craft the feather the first time, it costs 4000 gp normal, so I pay 2000 gp based on a Feat that overrides the 1/3 cost and time requirement, to 1/2 cost at 1000 gp a day.
Then I masterwork it for 300 gp, based on the same Feat.
Then I add Tickling to it, I add 5 to the DC because I don't have the spell requirement to add Tickling.
Later on I add Sneeze-inducing and add 5 to the check because I don't have the requirement to add sneeze-inducing. Do I also add another 5 to the check for not having the requirement for Tickling? Even though that is part of the gun now, and I already "paid it's cost" by increasing the DC the first time?
1) You don't want to use craft(firearms) to make a gun. The DC for an exotic weapon is 18. The DC for the Mastercrafted portion is 20. The amount of progress you make each week on a success is your roll x the DC in silver. Once you've covered the entire cost of the item, you're finished. We're talking about 40-80ish gp per week in progress. For that 4,300gp revolver you described it would take you 5-10 months to finish it. Using Gunsmithing you'd be done in 5 days with no rolls.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you.
2) If you have an assistant that can provide a prerequisite, or you have items that you can use to take place of the spell being cast that meets the prerequisite. But you have to provide 1 copy of the spell per day of enchanting. So if you use a wand to take care of a prerequisite for an item you are making that takes 3 days, that means 3 charges get used from the wand. Or you hire an assistant for 3 days. Or you use 3 scrolls.
Got it. I included that above, but also raised the DC, now I see I only have to do one or the other. Using a wand is of course use magic device, but to read a scroll would it be Spellcraft, or could you also use - use magic device to read a scroll?
Some items require the spell prerequisite to be met. Fortunately Arms and Armor aren't one of them. You can skip any prerequisite for +5 to the DC (other than the feat Craft Arms and Armor). Make sure you calculate what the required caster level is for the weapon you are making/upgrading. If it exceeds your ranks in craft(firearm) you'll need to +5DC to skip that prerequisite too.
So far, I stayed at them minimum level needed to craft at each stage to avoid that plus 5 DC, but now I know that I can actually do it earlier, if I can pass the check with a take 10, thank you.
3) Additional cost. Instead of using a scroll or wand, it is cheaper to hire a NPC caster. But its even cheaper to raise the DC 5 and skip it.
Got it.
4) Figure out the total bonus of the weapon (enhancement + special abilities, no more than +5 in each). The DC is either (bonus x 3) or (the highest DC of the Special abilites you are trying to add), which ever one is greater.
Didn't know the first part of that. Now it makes perfect sense. (Why can't they just write the darn book this way?)
If you are adding an ability to an existing magic weapon, it is the same DC as making a new weapon. But you only need to pay the difference: (total creation cost) - (existing weapons creation cost). Also the time to enchant is based on the difference in Market Price between the two weapons.
Ok, now here is where I am confused. The way I read it, the CL would be the same as if you were making it from scratch, but the DC of the check would be just for the new part you are adding. I take it that is not correct? If you craft a +1 flaming longsword and you want to bump it to a +2 flaming longsword down the line, you still need to cast fireball on it during the time you are working on it? That doesn't seem right. It seems like you already "paid the cost" through an already existing plus 5 to the DC, or through costs for the spells. Is there any reference to this that I am missing in any of the books?
5) Not sure how you got a 5% discount in making magic...
Spark of Creation trait or Hedge Magician trait. I love more flavorful traits, but it's hard to pass up one that can save thousands of gold over time.
You can just add one ability, I’m not sure what the DC is, I would say the DC is for the full item, not just the specific upgrade. Which is harsh when each upgrade has prereqs you are missing, sorry. There’s also disagreement about where the 5% comes in; you are showing crafting costing 45% of market (100-50-5), he has it at 47.5% (50%*95%). I have not seen clarifications on either of those, which is why I didn’t respond to those questions specifically.
But if I gather those prereqs over time through wands or scrolls, I can chip away at the high DC's correct? Starting with the cheapest ones of course. I still would like to see where this is in writing, so I can reference it later. Thanks again.
Also the Spark of Creation text reads
Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Craft checks, and the cost of creating magic items is reduced by 5%.
The way I read it (And of course I could be wrong) is: the cost is reduced by 5%. So normally the cost is 50% of the item. this reduces it 5%, to 45% of the item. It seems like Pathfinder wouldn't add something that requires crazy math, when they can just bump down your cost by 5%. Also the word "the" instead of "your" seems to imply that the overall cost goes down 5% rather than "your" cost which would be post 50% discount. Any thoughts?
url=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42c8f?How-does-Master-Craftsman-works#2]He re's a recent explanation of magic weapon crafting I wrote up.[/url] It should be helpful.
Main takeaway are that you can circumvent any requirement by increasing the DC by 5 (except having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat), so you don't have to wait until level fifteen to craft a +5 magic weapon. As long as your craft check is high enough.
And you don't need to supply the spells if you increase the check by 5.
In your example of Barry the Dwarf. The first time he goes to craft it, isn't he also needing to add 5 to the DC check because he is not a level 10 caster? But if he had 10 skill ranks in his Craft (weapons) skill, he would't have to add an extra 5 to the check because the Feat Master Craftsman lets him substitute the skill ranks he has in craft (Weapons) for his caster level, giving him a 10, so he then meets that requirement?
Re: Spark of Creation
When crafting items, the amount of GP used in raw materials is called "Cost".
When buying items, the amount of GP they are worth is called "Price".
So since Spark of Creation lowers the *Cost*, you'd first divide the *Price* by two and then multiply the result by 0.95.
Spark of Creation trait or Hedge Magician trait. I love more flavorful traits, but it's hard to pass up one that can save thousands of gold over time.
Assuming you speed up the crafting time by increasing the DC by 5, you'd save 50 GP per day spent crafting.
If we compare this to a Profession check of 30, which would you give you little over 2 GP per day, we see the true worth of this trait.It allows you to earn a considerate amount of money by crafting, which you can make use of during downtime.
In your example of Barry the Dwarf. The first time he goes to craft it, isn't he also needing to add 5 to the DC check because he is not a level 10 caster? But if he had 10 skill ranks in his Craft (weapons) skill, he would't have to add an extra 5 to the check because the Feat Master Craftsman lets him substitute the skill ranks he has in craft (Weapons) for his caster level, giving him a 10, so he then meets that requirement?
You're right. The rules say the the highest of the Caster Levels becomes the requirement.
So Barry would actually need to beat a DC 25 check for the first example, too.
You want to avoid mundane crafting at all costs. Its good at low levels when you can possibly complete a project in week (or a few), but at later levels its slow. You need 20 squared to get a productivity rating of 40 gp a week. 32 squared gets you 100 gp per week. Crafting magic items or crafting firearms with the gunsmithing feat gets you 1000 gp *per day* (not per week). Mundane crafting is ridiculously slow. You will make far more money by adventuring than you will save by mundane crafting.
Spark of Creation? Sure, why not. It will reduce costs, not time to craft.
A question of my own. Do you need to make firearm masterwork in order to enchant them? Its kinda not mentioned. Plus its 300 gp to make any other weapon masterwork, and firearms are often priced in the range of 1000s of gp, so it feels kinda redundant. If you have to make it masterwork, do you have to do so with mundane crafting or can you use the gunsmithing feat?
The Gunsmithing Feat allows you to make a normal firearm masterwork in 1 day for 300 gp. Another very cool ability built into the Feat/Class.
And in a weird way, Spark of Creation can save you time, once it starts saving you thousands of gold. (Of course only a day or two, but heck, it's something).
Re: Spark of Creation
When crafting items, the amount of GP used in raw materials is called "Cost".
When buying items, the amount of GP they are worth is called "Price".
So since Spark of Creation lowers the *Cost*, you'd first divide the *Price* by two and then multiply the result by 0.95.
Spark of Creation trait or Hedge Magician trait. I love more flavorful traits, but it's hard to pass up one that can save thousands of gold over time.Assuming you speed up the crafting time by increasing the DC by 5, you'd save 50 GP per day spent crafting.
If we compare this to a Profession check of 30, which would you give you little over 2 GP per day, we see the true worth of this trait.It allows you to earn a considerate amount of money by crafting, which you can make use of during downtime.
Ahhh. That above portion makes the most sense. Ok, so 5% off the cost. Still not bad.
And yes, this is definitely one of the traits that leads to a Howard Stark build in Pathfinder.
If you are trying to make money through crafting in Pathfinder...well. Honestly you shouldn't. That breaks the game.
But if you want to anyways, see if the GM is ok with you selling a keg of black powder. Costs you 100gp to make, sells for 500gp (1/2 value), for a profit of 400gp per day.
Not quite as broken is using the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign to earn Magic Resources. Generally you can make 1 or 2 per day, and you spend 50gp to get 100gp worth of 'stuff' to make magic with. Basically you double your money slowly this way. Not as efficient as selling black powder but it is something anyone can do and a bit more fair.
The Howard Stark comment was more about being the one that spreads guns through Golarion. :)
I was just going to ask if I could do that every week or so. Considering I won't be needing any weapon drops, I figure it shouldn't be that tough. I am 100% ok with staying at the wealth per level (I did all the math based on that anyway). Of course I wouldn't say no to better armor, a belt of DEX, or any headband that comes my way.