Invisibility vs Boss Monster [Spoilers]


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This is about the fight with the Kraken at the end of Ref Flags. I decided to put this in a separate thread from the other playtest observations, as it is quite complex, involving Invisibility and the ability to autmatically get 20 on a Stealth check. I have not looked up the names of all the abilities used, so I may have some names wrong.

The PCs are all on Heightened Invisibility since they used that to bypass the mirror trap. They have proceeded very fast through the last few rooms, leaving Necerion a few rounds behind. At first, 2 of the PCs are still on the other side of the mirror room, where the bard is making them indivisible one per round in order to pass the mirror trap.

A cleric and a rogue enter the Kraken's cave, which starts initiative. The players can take auto-20 on Stealth as they are invisible, but the Kraken still wins initiative and sees them all. But it is only there to defend the treasure, not to eat guests - it readies a tentacle slap. One player uses Celestial Armor (all 4 PCs had this) to fly over to the pillar, using Accelerated Stealth to do this unobtrusively. Because of auto-20, this automatically succeeds against the kraken's Perception defense, but I still let it trigger the tentacle attack - but after some discussion we judged Grab to be a separate action to follow up a tentacle - not a part of the tentacle attack itself. The PC (a rogue) takes damage but proceeds.

On its next action, the kraken tries to sense the invisible rogue, but it realizes it is too far away (the kraken has an Int of 20!). It thus starts to climb the pillar, which it can quite readily do, but it is still slow. It does get to the top and easily senses the rogue, as this is against the rogue's Stealth defense, not Stealth +20 like the rogue is using against the kraken. The rogue automatically hides again on her next action as she is still Invisible and thus rolls 20 on her Stealth.

We have 2 creatures that will almost automatically succeed at hiding AND at spotting the other.

Meanwhile, another PC, a bard, enters the room and uses Hallucination to create a psychic impression of the rogue running along the ledge around the room, out of the kraken's reach. Halluciantion does not allow an initial save, so the kraken falls for this. While the Rogue makes short work of the safe (Fast Lockinging or some such ability) the Kraken chases the Hallucination and saves - almost automatically. The bard casts another Hallucination. She has to move into the room to get within range (30 ft.) of the kraken. She uses Hallucination to make it seem she moves further than she actually did. I gave the kraken a hard Int DC to see if it caught up to this ploy, but it didn't, and both the PCs could exit the room.

Meanwhile, Necerion is approaching from the other direction, having finally caught up. Note that no-one is in danger of the mirrors, as everyone is invisible and thus casts no reflection (this is why the PCs started out invisible). The PCs suspect they are being pursued, and just in time one of them casts See Invisible. Necerion is next up and is in a hurry and does not move at the half speed required to use Stealth, so he is automatically seen. He has cast See Invisibility, so he also sees the PCs. Both sides have concealment as that is what you get with See invisibility vs. Invisibility. Concealment allows the use of Stealth, which will be important later.

Only one PC can actually see Necerion, and had no time to point him out, but the area where he could be is small enough to be totally covered by Faery Fire, downgrading Necerion's Invisibility to Concealment. Necerion proceeds to cast Warp Mind and Quickened Black tentacles, to no great effect as outlined in the other thread. Somewhere around here the bard uses Dirge of Doom and some spell makes Necerion sickened 1, so he suffers a -2 penalty on basically everything. He is also tripped and the rogue moves behind him, and he's down to 99 Hp (I don't recall the exact series of events, Mats may post this later). Some PCs end their turns by using Stealth to become sensed, as this disallows Necerion to cast targeted spells on them, but now they must roll Stealth as they are merely concealed and not invisible.

At this point, Necerion decides to Dimension Door out - he is after all a recurring villain! I let Dimension Door be one of the two spells he could spontaneously heighten, as his stat block did not list anything.

The main oddity is how Invisibility interacts with Perception. When using Invisibility to Sneak or Hide, a character automatically rolls 20.

Playtest document, p 158 wrote:
If you’re unseen by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to see you (such as when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), you automatically treat the result of your d20 roll as a 20 against that creature on your checks to Sneak.

But when someone Seeks the invisible character, the DC is 10 + Stealth bonus. And when Stealth is an initiative roll, it seems you're seen by anyone faster than you.

Playtest document, p 317 wrote:

Sneaking

You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while moving at half your travel Speed, unless you have an ability to move at full Speed while Sneaking. If you’re Sneaking at an encounter’s start, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check as part of your initiative roll, both to determine initiative order and to see if the enemies notice you.

This can be read that you use your Stealth check as initiative, and also compare it to the opponents' Perception DC to see if you are hidden. Read this way, you can be hidden even if you lose the initiative check. I only realized this was a possible reading when I looked the rule up after the session. Read this way, the kraken would never have noticed the PCs.

I read it that you have to beat their opposed initiative check in order to start hidden. Which gets odd if the opponent is using something other than Perception for initiative.

Overall, this was a very satisfying fight that we all enjoyed. Red Flags was very much James Bond to us, and the finalé was so most of all. No-one was seriously hurt, PC or NPC, which is totally in my players' taste. I am not critical of how the rules worked here, I think they worked quite well, even tough they created some very odd situations.

---

Finally, off on a tangent about the word "kraken". In Old Norse, this means "oddity", or "weird creature". In Norwegian, this became the sea monster of Red Flags. In Swedish (my native language), it has come to mean something pitiful, perhaps even cute in its meekness, like a newborn puppy that is still blind or a small child that has fallen over and is crying. I find this difference very funny. :)


The adventure text indicates each square is 10 ft., but the map key claims each square is 5 ft. We used 10 ft. squares.


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Huh, curious. Before I did not see the whole "Your Stealth init roll is also your Stealth hiding roll", esp. with how you are supposed to be able to Take 20 when Invisible, but now that you outline the text I see that. I feel like that is an unintended interaction. That or Invisible characters should be able to Take 20 on Init. XD

Hmm, that's an interesting idea for surprise rounds, have the surprisers roll init but those being surprised just use their Perception DC for Init.

Also small note, Frightened from Dirge and Sickened both impose conditional penalties, so they would not stack. There is merit to using both, as they have different durations and cure methods, making it harder to shake both than it would be for just one.


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Edge93 wrote:
Huh, curious. Before I did not see the whole "Your Stealth init roll is also your Stealth hiding roll", esp. with how you are supposed to be able to Take 20 when Invisible, but now that you outline the text I see that. I feel like that is an unintended interaction. That or Invisible characters should be able to Take 20 on Init. XD

That’s what we have been doing in Starfox’ group. The initative doubles as your sneak roll, and Invisibility allows you to take 20 on your sneak roll.

Invisibility heightened to 4th level is one of the best buff spells available, we’ve found. Not for sneaking around, but for the miss chance and for the above take-20 on initative. It has allowed us to get most opponents frightened and prone before their first action.

Edge93 wrote:
Also small note, Frightened from Dirge and Sickened both impose conditional penalties, so they would not stack. There is merit to using both, as they have different durations and cure methods, making it harder to shake both than it would be for just one.

Necerion was also prone, and that is Circumstance. :)

But as Starfox has mentioned elsewhere on several occations, the words ”Circumstance” and ”Conditional” are easy to mix up when you are dyslectic.


Edge93 wrote:
Huh, curious. Before I did not see the whole "Your Stealth init roll is also your Stealth hiding roll", esp. with how you are supposed to be able to Take 20 when Invisible, but now that you outline the text I see that. I feel like that is an unintended interaction. That or Invisible characters should be able to Take 20 on Init.

I agree this might not be RAI, but I like it and use it since it is RAW. That is also part of the reason for writing this, to point out that you can read the rules this way.

I find it pretty clear that Seek is against Stealth Defense, not against your Stealth roll, but I might be wrong there. I believe it SHOULD be against Stealth defense, or invisible characters become impossible to pinpoint.

/C


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Starfox wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
Huh, curious. Before I did not see the whole "Your Stealth init roll is also your Stealth hiding roll", esp. with how you are supposed to be able to Take 20 when Invisible, but now that you outline the text I see that. I feel like that is an unintended interaction. That or Invisible characters should be able to Take 20 on Init.

I agree this might not be RAI, but I like it and use it since it is RAW. That is also part of the reason for writing this, to point out that you can read the rules this way.

I find it pretty clear that Seek is against Stealth Defense, not against your Stealth roll, but I might be wrong there. I believe it SHOULD be against Stealth defense, or invisible characters become impossible to pinpoint.

/C

I'm pretty sure that's right. I believe Seek states that it is against Stealth DC.


Its a bit odd that when using Deceit to disguise yourself, the perception DC is your roll, and needs to be recorded. But when using Stealth, its against Stealth DC. A vestige of PF1, I guess.

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