“Why do you think Sarenrae is good aligned? She opened the Pit of Gormuz and left it open just so the Tarrasque and his brethren could escape. That means she’s clearly evil.”


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


In my friend’s game, this was spoken by a PC when an NPC tried converting him to their religion. I got a few laughs when I heard this, but let’s be real. She fixed the hole made when Rovagug was thrown into the planet, yet did nothing about the hole she created when she smited Gormuz, knowing fully well that Rovagug could use it to his advantage. How is she Good aligned again? She literally gave the world the Tarrasque.


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Bands of murderers and psychopaths wander the countryside claiming to serve the cause of good and justice. With the flimsiest of investigations or provocations they have killed hundreds of intelligent beings, usually in that beings home. They then proceed to rob the victim's family by taking all of the victims valuables. Often they wander the wilderness killing off the apex predators in the area which will lead to chaos in the ecosystem for decades.

And yet not only do they claim to be good, they are often lauded in song and rumor as 'Heroes'.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Except she did spend literal years telling folks to get the hell out of Gormuz, but they did the opposite of that, and became depraved Rovagug worshippers as a result. She smote a city full of people that refused every opportunity to get the hell out of dodge and repent their wicked ways. Sarenrae is the goddess of redemption, but if you deliberately ignore every warning she gives you maybe some smiting is warranted. Good doesn’t always mean “nice”.


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Good doesn't also mean perfect either. Case in point:

Desna freed Ghlaunder.

Good freeing evil is kind of a thing.


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I get the impression everyone in Gormuz were irredeemable evil bastards and that's why she had to destroy it. And besides, considering the people were evil (partly due to the proximity to Rovagug in the first place) they would probably have helped his spawn emerge to terrorize the world anyway if they survived.


Y’all are missing the point. She sealed the hole once. The fact she didn’t do so the second time is the problem. I know why she smited Gormuz. But again, leaving the Pit open was inexcusable behavior, as she was literally giving us the Spawn of Rovagug as a result.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unless you stop to consider that, maybe, leaving the pit open is a bit like lancing a boil. Either you can leave it closed, wherein it will eventually pop with messy results, or you can lance it to relieve the pressure. Anyway, by gathering around Gormuz, they were feeding power to Rovagug. By turning Gormuz into, essentially, Godzilla's Tokyo, you're reducing the number of people likely to gather there, either by having the sense to get out of there, or by being a casualty of a Spawn's stroll.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
Unless you stop to consider that, maybe, leaving the pit open is a bit like lancing a boil. Either you can leave it closed, wherein it will eventually pop with messy results, or you can lance it to relieve the pressure. Anyway, by gathering around Gormuz, they were feeding power to Rovagug. By turning Gormuz into, essentially, Godzilla's Tokyo, you're reducing the number of people likely to gather there, either by having the sense to get out of there, or by being a casualty of a Spawn's stroll.

Except the Spawn aren’t there anymore. They spread across the multiverse, due to the spell Spawn Calling, and its mythic counterpart. These spells never would have been made if the Spawn were never revealed to the public. So according to Pathfinder lore, literally at any moment, someone could teleport to Earth, call the Tarrasque, and we are now permanently stuck with something we can’t ever hope to defeat.

Sarenrae is fully at fault for the destruction of entire planets worth of civilizations, because aside from like 3 planets, none of them learned how to use magic.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If it's a choice between a world being destroyed,or the entire multiverse ceasing to be, hard decisions must be made. Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it isn't Good.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
Unless you stop to consider that, maybe, leaving the pit open is a bit like lancing a boil. Either you can leave it closed, wherein it will eventually pop with messy results, or you can lance it to relieve the pressure. Anyway, by gathering around Gormuz, they were feeding power to Rovagug. By turning Gormuz into, essentially, Godzilla's Tokyo, you're reducing the number of people likely to gather there, either by having the sense to get out of there, or by being a casualty of a Spawn's stroll.

Except the Spawn aren’t there anymore. They spread across the multiverse, due to the spell Spawn Calling, and its mythic counterpart. These spells never would have been made if the Spawn were never revealed to the public. So according to Pathfinder lore, literally at any moment, someone could teleport to Earth, call the Tarrasque, and we are now permanently stuck with something we can’t ever hope to defeat.

Sarenrae is fully at fault for the destruction of entire planets worth of civilizations, because aside from like 3 planets, none of them learned how to use magic.

Wow there's a whole lot of wrong here.

They are not spread across the universe, they're all on Golarion.

Sarenrae didn't reveal the Spawn to the public, and the Pit of Gormuz has only been the direct entrance for a couple of Spawn to the surface, the "Pit" as it is is only 2 miles deep. It's just an exit, there's no telling what all other Spawn are down in the Darklands going after other civilizations or going after other exits that exist. The Spawn existed before the Pit. The Pit is just one more door.

Also what makes you so sure even if the Pit didn't exist that Rovagug (a GOD) wouldn't send the ability to call forth his Spawn to his followers or others easily swayed, ya'know, like how he corrupted the entirety of Gormuz?

As for the destroying Earth angle, that requires someone to know about the Spawn, know the spell, know where Earth is (or any other planet), and want to take the Spawn away from Golarion (where Rovagug is imprisoned), which his followers would not want to do.

So "Sarenrae is fully at fault for the destruction of entire planets" is 100% false... because there's not been any planets destroyed.


Rysky wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
Unless you stop to consider that, maybe, leaving the pit open is a bit like lancing a boil. Either you can leave it closed, wherein it will eventually pop with messy results, or you can lance it to relieve the pressure. Anyway, by gathering around Gormuz, they were feeding power to Rovagug. By turning Gormuz into, essentially, Godzilla's Tokyo, you're reducing the number of people likely to gather there, either by having the sense to get out of there, or by being a casualty of a Spawn's stroll.

Except the Spawn aren’t there anymore. They spread across the multiverse, due to the spell Spawn Calling, and its mythic counterpart. These spells never would have been made if the Spawn were never revealed to the public. So according to Pathfinder lore, literally at any moment, someone could teleport to Earth, call the Tarrasque, and we are now permanently stuck with something we can’t ever hope to defeat.

Sarenrae is fully at fault for the destruction of entire planets worth of civilizations, because aside from like 3 planets, none of them learned how to use magic.

Wow there's a whole lot of wrong here.

They are not spread across the universe, they're all on Golarion.

Sarenrae didn't reveal the Spawn to the public, and the Pit of Gormuz has only been the direct entrance for a couple of Spawn to the surface, the "Pit" as it is is only 2 miles deep. It's just an exit, there's no telling what all other Spawn are down in the Darklands going after other civilizations or going after other exits that exist. The Spawn existed before the Pit. The Pit is just one more door.

Also what makes you so sure even if the Pit didn't exist that Rovagug (a GOD) wouldn't send the ability to call forth his Spawn to his followers or others easily swayed, ya'know, like how he corrupted the entirety of Gormuz?

As for the destroying Earth angle, that requires someone to know about the Spawn, know the spell, know where Earth is (or any other planet), and want...

Ironic, considering there is a whole lot wrong with your post.

1: The recommended method for dealing with the Spawn of Rovagug is to plane shift them. Golarion only exists on the material plane. Thus, by definition, they are not all on Golarion.

2: Sarenrae did in fact reveal them. She left the Pit open on purpose. Nobody would know about the Spawn if she hadn’t done that, as they would all be down in the Pit. Also, you clearly know nothing about the Pit of Gormuz. It is the only location of the origin of the Spawn, as that is where Rovagug is. There are no other exits.

3: Rovagug didn’t actively corrupt anyone. His mere prescence did.

4: Most people know about other planets. Hell, some races actually know about space travel. Knowledge of Earth is actually a thing as it actually appeared in an AP.

5: Rovagug’s followers would want to take the Spawn elsewhere, as their entire religion is about destroying everything.

6: I didn’t say Sarenrae is at fault for the destruction of entire planets. I said she is at fault for the destruction of entire planets’ worth of civilizations. There is a difference.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You might need to check a few facts yourself: it states that MOST of the Spawn arise from the Pit of Gormuz. If MOST do, some arise elsewhere. Keep in mind, also, that a grand total of official spawn of Rovagug is 6, from approximately -3470 to 4718. 6 monsters in over 8000 years. You can grow a Great Wyrm in that time period, and the Great Wyrm is actually stronger. Additionally, at least one of whom is dead, another is likely dead, and another is sealed. Leaving 3 to threaten the infinite planes. Given infinite planes, it's actually more likely to shift the Spawn off to the abyss than to an alternative prime material.


Plus you know, regarding the whole "plane shift is the best way to deal with Spawn" thing (it isn't, in canon that's murdering the cookies out of them or sealing them away) plane shift lets you pick the plane the target's getting thrown too. Shoving them to the local negative/positive energy plane or ye olde eternal void is remarkably trivial.


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It's kind of a big assumption that she can simply just 'seal it back up'. She's a god, sure, but she's not a god of stone or the earth. Beyond that, you could say the same for ANY of the good or even neutral aligned gods who haven't gone out of their way to try and close the pit. Several gods fought against him, why haven't any of them gone out of their way to seal it back up? Gods aren't supposed to interfere directly on the planet, Sarenrae messed up when she did. Who knows what someone trying to close the pit could do?

Also, just for a bit of clarity.

1: The recommended way people on the boards came up with to deal with them is to plane shift them. Most of what I've read has stated they are all either A) Dead B) Trapped somewhere on Golarion by magical means or C) still out there in the remote parts of Golarion.

2: Sarenrae accidentally created the pit and then left it open on purpose, yes. But as said above, no other gods have tried closing said pit, so I think it's safe to assume it's not as simple as just doing it.

3: I'm fairly certain it's a bit iffy on Rovagug intentionally corrupting people, or his mental presence passing by was simply enough to do so. But it is stated that he does intentionally use his will on his own clerics to direct them.

4: Most people do not know about the other planets having 'sentient life on them'. Only certain people do, even though yes you do go to Earth in an A.P., it's only after gaining an artifact associated with the most powerful spell caster with a printed stat-black. It's rare.

5: Rovagug's followers do want to destroy everything, but you know what they want to destroy the most? Rovagug's prison, so he can be free. It's logical they would want the spawn to be kept on Golarion to help facilitate that, besides the fact that most followers of Rovagug would never know about other planets with people on them as they aren't the learning type.

6: I'd agree that she accidentally caused a lot of destruction, but I wouldn't call her evil because she messed up. Just no where near as smart as a god should be.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

First off, the destruction of Ninshabur is literally Sodom & Gomorrah moved to Golarion. Angel gets sent, gets violated, God smites out of anger. Sarenrae tends to have picked up a lot of the OT God's traits (Vengeful, quick to anger, smite happy, fire themed), regardless of whether these CN tendencies fit in the NG box the deity has on their stat sheet. Whether that fits with an individual's moral spectrum or not is irrelevant, this NG goddess is based on this NG deity, warts and all.

Second, it took cooperation of a large part of the Pantheon to sew up Golarion the first time, pinning the crust back on with the Star Towers. For all we know, it would take unpinning the whole thing to fix it, a risk the Pantheon won't take.

Third, as we only have a single good article about the pit in Mythic Realms, there is not a lot of data to draw any conclusions about what the church of Sarenrae is doing in attempt to repair or rehabilitate the damage.


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Reksew_Trelba wrote:
Why do you think Sarenrae is good aligned?

Because the literal multiverse in which Sarenrae is a goddess tells us that she is Good.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Brolof and the others did a good job answering but I’ll still respond too.

1) a bunch of people theorycrafting in the forums does not canon make. Is there any canonical material stating the Spawn are on other planets or planes? No? Then they’re not.

2) you need to actually read that page you linked. And also read up on Rovagug, he’s in the Dead Vault, not the Pit of Gormuz. “Legends tell” is just that, a legend. Seeing as how Rovagug was bound at the beginning of time in the Dead Vault whereas the Pit is a rather recent development (in the scale of the universe), saying he’s in the Pit is, yeah.... no.

And yes, the Pit is just one exit the Spawn used. They existed before, and have used other exits. Also there are in fact civilizations in the Darklands so even without the Pit there would be knowledge of the Spawn.

3) that’s really a distinction without a difference.

4) some people know about other planets. Only a handful know about Earth. Which is besides the point.

5) no they wouldn’t. They want to destroy, but they want to free Rovagug more. Transporting a Spawn to the middle of nowhere doesn’t accomplish that.

6) what is the difference then? “She’s not responsible for destroying planets she’s responsible for destroying all the civilizations on planets”, I’m not really seeing the hair to split here. Regardless it’s still false anyway.


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Also, leaving it an open pit keeps people away from it. That wiki article states that her followers (somehow) misinterpreted every single message and portent she sent telling them to stay away from it until they all went crazy. Now that its a creepy sanity destroying pit in a wasteland people seem to have finally got the message. If she fixed it again there'd probably be people living on it inside a week.


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What I would like to know is to what extent do the modern mortal inhabitants possess accurate information regarding the true nature and history of the gods?

All I have to go on right now is the wiki but from what I can tell it was a number of gods working together to seal Rovagug the fist time so the statement "she sealed the hole once" is false; she clearly doesn't have the power to close the hole and it isn't enough of a threat to bring the gods together again to reseal it.


I just wanted to say, while she may have created the pit, it seems likely that she cannot as easily close it.

Gods do not have infinite power on Golarion, she may be incapable of sealing this one. Perhaps sealing the hole when Rovagug was placed inside took so much of her power she no longer is capable of performing such acts.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I think another thing we need to go is get it out of people's heads that:

1) Good is perfect and any imperfection means they aren't good. Good people (and gods) make mistakes, they have limitations on what they can do. Not choosing to fight every evil out there doesn't make them less good when they're busy fighting some evil.

2) People (and gods) are responsible for what other people do with their own free will. This is a tired old canard that you see in all sorts of media - I'm particularly reminded of Detective Manolis chastising Daredevil for treating Bullseye with mercy and saying that he'd hold Daredevil responsible for any of Bullseye's victims if he recovered and ever got out of prison. It's a common trope and it's utterly BS. Paladins aren't responsible for they offer orc or goblin children mercy and they grow up to act like orcs and goblins. Sarenrae isn't responsible for eschatalogical cultists summoning various spawn of Rovagug and laying waste to civilizations. That's fully on the cultists doing the summoning.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually was just reading Order of the Stick, which was incredibly relevant. Sarenrae told her followers to stay clear of the Gormuz area. instead they flocked to it, she sent her herald to get them to leave. They killed him. She smote Gormuz. 6 terrible spawn of the worst deity around start climbing out of the pit she made. Every decision she made turned out poorly, in this instance. Looking at it that way, her backing off to see what happens is actually one of the best choices she could make. Every time she interfered, it seems Rovagug was able to make a countermove. She lost her herald, and he was able to unleash 6 creatures that are stronger than most divine heralds. Had she tried closing the Pit, I'm not certain it would be Sarenrae that came out of the pit.


The whole thing started because Sarenrae was too stupid to leave unambiguous instructions to stay away from the scar. Not sure why she blamed them--they didn't ask to be corrupted against their will into worshiping Big Evil, they just followed what they thought were her wishes. But there she went, the "Goddess of Redemption", getting all angry and smite-happy and not giving a thought to the consequences of her temper tantrum. She might have good intentions, but she's a damn fool.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

She told them to avoid the area. They didn't. She sent her herald. They murdered it. Then she smote them. She didn't smite them for living around the area, she smote the area because they murdered her herald, her proxy. It was tantamount to a direct attack on the goddess, definitely a harsh insult to her at minimum. Why do you think Sarenrae is a fool for responding to an attack on her station as a deity, while Desna gets a pass when she unleashed a demon Lord?


Val'bryn2 wrote:
e Desna gets a pass when she unleashed a demon Lord?

Or Shelyn gets a pass for not putting Zon Kuthon in a dumpster when she had the opportunity. Yeah, I'm sure all the people currently being flayed alive in Nidal and abroad are real happy for her and that little bout of sisterly mercy.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
She told them to avoid the area. They didn't. She sent her herald. They murdered it. Then she smote them. She didn't smite them for living around the area, she smote the area because they murdered her herald, her proxy. It was tantamount to a direct attack on the goddess, definitely a harsh insult to her at minimum. Why do you think Sarenrae is a fool for responding to an attack on her station as a deity, while Desna gets a pass when she unleashed a demon Lord?

They misunderstood her instructions. That's on her. Unless you believe that a literal god can't even manage something as simple as an unambiguous message for something this important? Once they were corrupted by evil, their actions were no longer their own. The original worshipers can't be blamed for murdering her herald--they were under mental compulsion. Sure, she should have responded, and regrettably that response may have required the death of a city full of innocents corrupted by Rovagug's wlil, but the manner of her response was that of wrath rather than correction, and that wrath had avoidable consequences far beyond the destruction of Gormuz.

Desna is irrelevant, but yeah, sure, she doesn't get a pass either. She's always been portrayed as rather foolish, though, or at least terminally aloof.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We're running into the problem of free will, now:. She sent multiple omens and warnings, and the worshippers chose to ignore it. And I don't know that the wrath had that kind of consequences. The spawn came to the surface, and people bloody well stayed away from what she told them to stay away from. Again, you can't judge this as simply what Sarenrae can or can't do, because she is one of MANY deities in Golarion, and when she acts, another deity is able to act, and the evil deities vastly outnumber the good ones.


on the other hand, deities opposed to Rovagug outnumber the Rough Beast and their allies.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And it took all of them to seal it. Not kill it, all of them could barely seal Rovagug. And that was before we had some start dying.


Do keep in mind that according to James Jacob, Pharasma is the most powerful deity. But she also doesn't like getting involved in things like "the whole planet is going to die". Death is her thing, and she understand what is and isn't supposed to happen due to her connection to prophecy (though that has weakened).

So it took lots of deities, but I think according to JJ, Pharasma was not involved in sealing the rough beast.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And as she wasn't involved the first time, should we assume she'd get involved this time?


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blahpers wrote:
Unless you believe that a literal god can't even manage something as simple as an unambiguous message for something this important?

....

I mean....

Yeah. I can absolutely believe that.


When you're a god, THEN you might get to decide the nature of good and evil.. until then you merely guess at it.

We don't really know why Sarenrae left the pit open, but it's extremely likely that she simply considers it to be the right thing to do. People getting hurt by some action isn't a sign that the action isn't "right" or "good".. even though an action causes people pain, it could still be the best possible action.

As a goddess of light (or sun anyway), it's extremely likely that Sarenrae would think that drawing attention to a problem is better than trying to hide the problem away. As others have said, the pit isn't the ONLY exit, but this is a door that everyone knows is open. Whatever comes through that door will be obvious.. or at least more obvious than it might have otherwise been. The pit itself could serve as a warning or a reminder which actually bolsters the forces of good.

As a goddess of redemption, Sarenrae probably feels that anything that comes out of the pit can be dealt with. Locking something away and throwing away the key isn't "redemption". In order for something to be redeemed, you must give it a chance. Sarenrae sent her Harold to "correct" or redeem her wayward followers.. when they killed her Harold, she may have felt she had to kill the followers in order to save others. It's even possible that she felt she was in danger of being corrupted herself.

Finally, the pit is an exit.. and it's also an entrance. Sarenrae might be hoping to one day use the pit to actually heal and redeem Rovagug.

Or there's the answer that others have given.. perhaps Sarenrae just isn't powerful enough to seal the pit.


Black_Rabbit_Inle wrote:

>_>

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I find the argument about redeeming Rovagug highly unlikely, however, let's not overlook the possibility that she left it open as a memorial. Sarenrae went through a lot there. She lost a number of followers, which probably hurt her emotionally. She also lost her Herald. In some ways, what she went through was roughly equivalent to watching her children murder her husband. This was a being who she spent millennia in the company of.


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Rovagug is a big deal, in the way that a spawn of rovagug destroying an empire is infinitely better than Rovagug destroying all of creation. If lancing Gormuz so people wont gather around it and get all possessed and start working to free Rovagug works, it makes sense to me that the gods would consider it worth the planetary consequences. After all, the material plane has many, many more planets and species than just Golarian, and Golarian really only holds importance as 1) where Rovagug was imprisoned, and 2) where a piece of god-trash ended up crash landing.

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