Hey everyone,
I am running a homebrew and I have run into the following real problem: my main group of PCs is in the 10-12 range and are quite powerful but the way my world works does not really lend well to the “there is always something bigger and badder” approach. That being said obviously the BBEG is clearly bigger and badder as are his immediate underlings but it means that the various other factions in the world and NPCs/monsters are generally not a challenge for the party. The world is a lower fantasy world (which means high level magic is really messing with me now ha) and so I am trying to use more Mundane enemies and issues to push the story forward.
Right now my PCs have split into two groups to solve two problems:
The higher level group is about to go to a town that has been overrun by cultists of the dead god that the BBEG serves and is trying to restore to life. The town is in a dangerous wooded area and was home to about 2000 people before being completely overrun by scores of these dangerous cultists. Most of the people have been killed or run out and the cultists are now using it as a place to plan and execute additional offensives from. The head cultist in this town is likely a 6-7th level character (powerful but individually not high up in the hierarchy nor powerful enough to challenge those higher ranking people) and the regular rank and file are 2nd to 3rd level. This job is being undertaken by the 10-12th level characters and my concern is two fold: 1) they will get straight up murdered by the party because of big offensive magics and level disparity and 2) in the alternative the fight will be a massive slog in which the party comes out ahead for the same reasons but takes forever because of the simply massive number of participants needed to make it dangerous.
The lower level party (5) is headed to the home of a company of hobgoblins to slay its general (who is allied with the cultists and has actively sought to assassinate a hobgoblin allied with the party) and install an ally (the other hobgoblin) as the new general. The general is probably 7-9th level and is a martial class. His head advisor is a poison-happy alchemist of 7th level. The party is 6 people all between 4-6th level. I really do not want this to devolve into a massive slog where they move through essentially a city’s worth of hobgoblins, nor do I want it to devolve into a “stealth and assassinate” in the general’s chambers. The sheer number of PCs will make this fight very one-sided without adding either a ton of mooks to absorb actions or something else to help slow the party down. I was thinking of having the general be essentially unkillable (as in infinite HP) until a nearby altar to the dead god is destroyed....or something.
Does anyone have any advice for making less individually powerful people/monsters/etc a challenge without having to simply stack levels? Any interesting ideas for making the encounter more complicated from an action economy standpoint? Hoping someone else out there has dealt with the fact that sometimes lower level enemies are still the ones you need to deal with first in order to later deal with the BBEG but without just rolling up and murdering them with ease and without any fun.
Thanks all and sorry for the dense post.
In games like DD3.x and Pathfinder, masses of lower-level foes are difficult to make challenging for higher-level PCs, and tend to be a slog fest if you try to do it, as you suggest.
One way to try to make it viable is to pull out all the stops using terrain, traps, field artillery and every evil little thing you can imagine as a wicked DM. Including separating the PCs, using deadly environmental hazards and simply running them ragged by prolonging the "adventuring day" past when the spellcasters start running out of viable spells.
Also be sure that the PCs are invested in protecting or saving some of the fragile NPCs who could theoretically be threatened by these mid-level dangers. A situation that wouldn't really threaten them directly could require them to go way out on a limb to save somebody.
Personally, I find that once PCs get past 10th level, it's hard to run any interesting adventures at all. Combat scenes drag on and on, even against level-appropriate foes, and take up so much gaming time that the campaign as such, and any attempt at roleplay, grinds to a snail's crawl.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Google Tucker's Kobolds for some inspiration.
Thanks,
I am glad to know others find these mid-higher level games kindve difficult to run. My players love being more powerful but I find I enjoy my higher level characters less.
I will definitely look in on the troop mechanic, that could be a very interesting way to make a large number of weaker enemies into a ifferent kind of threat.
I also like the idea of the self flanking, I doubt my players will care so stringently about the nitty gritty rules there.
Thanks all
I was in a Tier 4 PFS party that was nearly TPK'd by a group of 1st-level halfling rogues in a cavern full of stalagmites.
If you are running a high magic campaign, gear out the mooks with low level gear that won't be interesting to the party members as loot, but will boost attack/damage numbers.
As others have said, use different mechanics of the game, such as traps, opposing casters in each troop, set up enemies in fortified positions, have the enemies use surprise, charge, flank and other battlefield tactics.
Archers on roofs shooting flaming arrows, road blocks that impede/direct traffic, natural hazards (buildings on fire, rubble that modifies movement), pits, dead ends...make it a maze to get through town.
Lots of options that don't modify the creatures themselves. Mix in bards, bad-touch clerics, blaster sorcs, debuff wizards, and put at least one enemy caster in every group if you are able.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I read this quandary and had been thinking about it. It occurs to me that if you have a group of mooks that hit only on a 20, you can aggregate their hit chances together into a single d20 roll, determining how many hit their mark by figuring probability.
For example:
If you have 8 Hobgoblin longbowmen firing at a PC with and AC of 23 or higher, they would each individually have to roll a 20 to hit. A few computations show us that roughly 65% of the time all will miss, 30% one will hit, 5% two will hit, and 0.5% of the time three will hit.
On the dice that translates to:
1-13: miss
14-19: 1d8 damage (1 hit)
20: 2d8 damage (2 hits)
20, 19-20 confirm: 3d8 damage (3 hits)
They're weak enough to consider one hit a kill (great cleave would be very effective and a fireball would wipe the lot). The downside is that you would have to keep track of a chart to figure out hit/damage probability as their numbers dwindle. Also, you'd have to keep track of each individual die as a separate attack for damage reduction or deflect arrows or the like.
For example:
4 longbowmen
1-16: miss
17-20: 1d8 damage (1 hit)
20, 15-20 confirm: 2d8 damage (2 hits)
24 longbowmen
1-6: miss
7-13: 1d8 damage (1 hit)
14-17: 2d8 damage (2 hits)
18-19: 3d8 damage (3 hits)
20: 4d8 damage (4 hits)
20, 18-20 confirm: 5d8 damage (5 hits)
Anyway, it's a thought.
|
Hobgoblins are generaly quite tactical.
Put 10 1st level hobgoblin fighters in a squad (2 rows of 5) with two comanders. Give the squad bows, longspears, Combat Reflexes
The comanders: 5th level skald with a flagbearer and the rage power Knockdown or Lesser Spirit Totem.
A 3rd level order of the dragon cavalier lending paired opportunitist to a squad.
Use ready actions at the start to brace weapons or ranged attacking spellcasters when they start casting.
Hopefully that will make it memorable.
|
Personally, I am not a fan of using low level opponents like this as it quickly becomes a 'no win situation' by heroic standards: Either you suffer a humiliating defeat at the hands of 'cannon fodder' or you score an embarrassing victory over creatures that really shouldn't have been a challenge in the first place.
Of course, I might just be emotionally scarred by a Kobold lair back in the 90s...