As the title says, i've got to build a level 9 monk as a backup character.
I'm looking for some fun combos/general ideas to work on at this level, since i'm totally new to the class.
thank you in advance guys!
For some reason you have to choose the monk class, or do you mean you're after an unarmed/unarmoured character with a movie star look? Or both? Is multiclassing OK? How about archetypes, the PF unchained variant of the monk, 3rd party stuff?
For the jade regent adventure, in order to let us know more about the story, our GM has created some secondary quest for us player, where we are members of a ninja clan.
We was given the choice of ninja or monk classes and since i'm already playing a ninja i was looking for something a bit different, ence the monk class.
3rd party stuff is not allowed, unchained and archetype are OK, multiclassing is not (well i guess a monk/ninja multiclass could be ok)
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level 9 is JUST the right level for taking up a nimble guardian (need to be ether catfolk or human with catfolk racial heritage feat)
thes sell point? you get to change from a tiny kitten (cat with the young template if your gm ask for a refrence) into a huge warcat. (that dire tiger animal companian druid uses? this is it's big brother)
i had 2 work as an elven pricness bodyguards. she kept the kittens as pets naming them 'Mo' and 'Ippai' (means 'once again')
his level 7 ability reach it's high point on levl 9.
also pick a ki mastery ring so the ability cost 1 ki and not two (as well as any other ability that cost ki,that ring is a must for any monk).
A personal favourite of mine is the Sensei/Drunken Master/Qinggong combo: have a drink, and then make everybody in the party shoot fire!
Additionally: as long as you have booze you can act as a healer, which might prove useful.
You might make a sohei monk. You get 8 selectable feats by level 9 (9 if human) - 3 from the class, 5 general feats. 3 spent getting a mount, 3 spent on fighting with the mount (mounted combat, mounted skirmisher [which you can get prereq-free as a sohei monk bonus feat], indomitable mount or trick riding) leaves you 2-3 feats for more general fighting feats.
An unchained monk with no archetypes at all is a valid choice at 9th level. Flying kick lets you move 30' before making a full attack (or even in the middle of it) which is reasonable tactical mobility.
A hungry ghost monk is a means of not running out of ki with a slightly more evil feel to it than the drunken master, if you like that sort of thing.
Thank you all guys.
@zza ni: it looks really strong, act as a scout as a tiny cat(easy to go unnoticed, who doesn't love a cat?) and fight like a tiger. Really cool and the flat stat boost will really help my low point buy.
@VRMH: with your combo I don't really get the feel that i'm looking for, but the Sensei is a really cool archetype nonetheless: maybe i could take it with the Hungry Ghost suggested below.
@avr: I don't think that a mount fit my concept, sadly. For a more "martial" feeling is the Martial Artist archetype any good?
The unchained monk is....Woah. Amazing. Really a power up imho. I'll look into it in the detail. do you suggest a dex or str focused build?
Again, thank you for your replies :)
The unchained monk isn't exactly a powerup, but it is simpler, and easier to match with the usual martial arts fantasy than an archetyped standard monk. On that note: no, the martial artist archetype is not any good.
Str-based is easier to make effective. If you go that way you need to get a style which adds to your defence. Crane style ideally, panther style might do.
Feat progression for a STR based Unchained Monk:
lvl 1: Power Attack, Dodge (B)
lvl 2: Deflect Arrow (B)
lvl 3: Dragon Style
lvl 4:
lvl 5: Dragon Ferocity
lvl 6: Mobility (B)
lvl 7: Elemental Fist
lvl 8:
lvl 9: Iron Will
For a more defensive style i could trade the dragon style/elemental fist with the whole crane style line.
As dex based i could go like that, assuming i get an agile amulet of mighty fist:
lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Dodge (b)
lvl 2: Combat Reflexes
lvl 3: Crane Style
lvl 4:
lvl 5: Crane Wing
lvl 6: Mobility(B)
lvl 7: Crane Riposte
lvl 8:
lvl 9: Iron Will
For a dex based monk i'm considering the jabbing style chain for more offensive power, is it any good? I've got the flying kick ability ro reliably get that flurry attack going.
Any thoughts?
if you hit 3 times in a round with jabbing style you do a total of 2d6 extra damage, about the same as weapon specialization. If you can fit jabbing master in then the same 3 hits add a total of 6d6 (average 21), on the order of power attack but without the attack penalty. They're worthwhile.
I'd been thinking of making a dex-based monk as more of a debuffer - make the first attack a trip or dirty trick, maybe even pick more of the stunning fist-alike feats - but jabbing style for pure damage is workable.
For a dex based monk i'm considering the jabbing style chain for more offensive power, is it any good?
It doesn't include dex-based builds in the listed comparisons, but you might still want to check out my unMonk DPR calculator and comparison.
Jabbing Style is pretty feat hungry, not the least because Power Attack is not something you'd normally grab for that character, but it's pretty good once you've got it going.Regarding the feat lists: It depends a bit on the enemies, but Power Attack isn't that good for Dragon Style, I'd suggest Possessed Hand. Elemental Fist is OK although Jabbing Style (which doesn't require you to be in the stance, so it can be used alongside Dragon Style) would be stronger on a full-attack, which is better depends on how often you need to move/charge or attack multiple enemies in one round.
I think Iron Will can be replaced by Deathtouched, but your preference may differ.
Dex based plus Crane Style is probably overkill, though.
The unchained monk isn't exactly a powerup
I disagree. Unless you pick a cMonk archetype with drastically alters the playstyle (Far Strike, Zen Archer, Tetori, or Sensei), unMonk is way ahead. Pseudo-pounce makes a huge difference, Flurry is just better, easier access to qinggong powers (you can actually have Restoration at 8th level instead of having to wait until 11th level, where you'd have to decide between it and Ki Leech), and Empty Body at 4th level is just crazy.
Str-based is easier to make effective. If you go that way you need to get a style which adds to your defence. Crane style ideally, panther style might do.
Why? If you have someone to cast Mage Armor on you, your defense should be good enough.
@zza ni: it looks really strong, act as a scout as a tiny cat(easy to go unnoticed, who doesn't love a cat?) and fight like a tiger.Note that you get the Beast Shape III (via Nimble Guardian 9th) upgrades to your states, not the CR17 Warcat's stats. One annoyance of going huge is the massive penalty to dexterity, which seriously eats into initiative, touch-AC, Acrobatics, and granted AoOs per round. One option is a dex-build that picks up another +4 to the stat by going small magical beast rather than huge (regular) beast, or medium magical beast for +4 str and +4 nat-am. The magical beast choices are definitely the better options, IMO, especially as you appear to get their size bonuses even if the taken form doesn't actually make you bigger or smaller.
Really cool and the flat stat boost will really help my low point buy.What is the point-buy amount?
The unchained monk is....Woah. Amazing. Really a power up imho.
If you're a puncher who can make his will-saves after forfeiting fast will-save path, uMonk is an upgrade. If you like using your ki for extra attacks with manufactured weaponry, unchained monk represents a serious nerf (especially if you're also desiring an archetype that doesn't work with unchained, which is most of them). Many goodies that were previously automatic class abilities in chained monk now require expenditure of ki (and thereby eating action-economy). (Garbage-tier ki-power choices like Building-Up Koan make my left eye go all twitchy. Empty Body is the star-choice on the list...but are you really going to be ethereal that often at a cost of 3ki?)
just pointing out about nimble guardian. it's not a cat it's a kitty-cat! (it's samller then the normal cat hence the young template edition)
At level 9 AC ~22 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +4 monk, +1 deflection, +1 dodge) is pretty poor on a front line character unless you have non-AC defences. By the bench pressing spreadsheet that's below orange. Green (acceptable) is 5 points off. You could add in barkskin as a ki power but you've other uses for ki, and if ambushed outside a dungeon even barkskin's 90 minute duration isn't enough. The OP's just mentioned a low point buy which might make even 14's in dex and wis iffy if str-based.
The sohei monk on a mount like I suggested above has tactical mobility like flying kick with at least 40' range. And a +3 polearm + gloves of duelling undercuts a +3 AoMF while making up for the BAB loss compared to unchained. The right archetypes make the original monk comparable in effectiveness to unchained while allowing many weird options. Unchained monk (or a different class & archetype aimed at the same thing) can outdo the original monk on the pure monkly aesthetic though.
Empty body having no level restriction was a mistake it's been admitted, even with no errata to make it official. The 3 ki cost is a strong hint it should have been limited to 12th level or even 16th.
Is fixed stat at 15 point, which is 15 14 13 12 10 8, which is kinda disappointing. That could be the main reason for going catfolk nimble guardian. I agree in regards to magical beast being the best choice for fight too.
I really love the style strikes of the uMonk, some are really cool/useful and overall i find it easier to build.
This might be caused by the low point buy too, since the flurry of the cMonk (and two weapon fighting in general) isn't really viable with low stats and no built-in boost to attack roll.
The sohei is surely good, as are tetori and zen archer, they just don't fit the character that i'm trying to build.
Is fixed stat at 15 point, which is 15 14 13 12 10 8, which is kinda disappointing.It's 20pt-buy, and not a bad array (although if you're going to have a dump stat, it might as be a 7 and free up two points to elevate the 13 to a 14.
That could be the main reason for going catfolk nimble guardian. I agree in regards to magical beast being the best choice for fight too.
The biggest problem with a catfolk uMonk is going to be a wis-dumped race combined with a slow-will class. (The cats also get a charisma bump, which is ideal for ninjas but mainly useless in monks.)
I ve seen the dpr calculator, nice job. I think i ll go with a dex monk in the end, or i feel that my defenses will be too low to be comfortable
If you like using your ki for extra attacks with manufactured weaponry, unchained monk represents a serious nerf
Not really. The 1.5xStr makes cMonk and unMonk with unarmed bonus attack about on par on a full attack (which unMonk has a way better chance of initiating thanks to flying kick), and with Ascetic Style, the later is way ahead.
especially if you're also desiring an archetype that doesn't work with unchained, which is most of them
What archetype would you really want, though? Zen Archer, Far Strike, Tetori, Sensei, and mounted Sohei are vastly different playstyles, MoMS was always a trap option, and most of the 'smaller effect' archetypes that were designed to upgrade the cMonk (like Weapon Adept) simply aren't necessary.
Sure, unchained Hungry Ghost Monk or Nimble Guardian would be nice, but you don't exactly need them.Many goodies that were previously automatic class abilities in chained monk now require expenditure of ki
Which goodies are you talking about? You can still get the original version of Diamond Body by picking it as a Qinggong Power, Diamond Soul is better as an activated ability, everyone traded Slow Fall away for Barkskin anyway, and if you really want High Jump, the ki Power version is identical to the old version.
Empty Body is the star-choice on the list...but are you really going to be ethereal that often at a cost of 3ki?
It's not an ability you're going to use a dozen times a day, sure, but it's just so powerful: You can flight, walk through walls, and are invisible and almost unaffactable. You can use it to spy, to fly up a cliff/wall and tie a rope for the other party members, walk through locked doors to unlock them from the other side or, if you have 6 ki, take something from a locked room and leave again unhampered. You can use it to get out of jail, to ambush, to escape a lost battle (it's Su, so no concentration checks or AoO), or to enter your lover's bedroom without anyone seeing you.
It's also far from the only good ki power unMonk gets: Abundant Step is aviable four levels earlier (which also means earlier access to Dimensional Dervish), Restoration is aviable three levels earlier, and Ki Leech is aviable one level earlier and doesn't have to compete with Restoration. Last but not least, Insightful Wisdom can easily save party members.
At level 9 AC ~22 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +4 monk, +1 deflection, +1 dodge) is pretty poor on a front line character unless you have non-AC defences. By the bench pressing spreadsheet that's below orange.
10 +4 armor, +2 dex, +5 monk (including +3 from wis), +2 deflection, +4 natural armor (barkskin), +1 dodge = 26 AC. Fighter with +2 full plate: 10 +11 armor +1 dex +1 deflection +1 natural armor = 24 AC, with more gold spend. Monk without Barkskin has 23 AC, with 500gp more spend.
Empty body having no level restriction was a mistake it's been admitted, even with no errata to make it official. The 3 ki cost is a strong hint it should have been limited to 12th level or even 16th.
First, I'm not convinced it was actually admitted (the unchained product discussion has an alleged quote from a developer, James Jacobson or Jason Bulmahn I think, but there is no original post to be found. Second, unless they errata or FAQ it, what's written is what's valid, and everything else is pure houserule. Third, if we're valuing developer comments higher than what's actually written in the books, we shouldn't use unMonk at all: "Changing a monk's BAB is not in the cards, just like it is not for any other class. Changing BAB monkey's with a lot of statistics (especially for the monk with flurry). Truth be told, the monk is not a class that is designed specifically to stand up toe-to-toe with a fighter." Jason Bulman, Director of Game Design
I ve seen the dpr calculator, nice job. I think i ll go with a dex monk in the end, or i feel that my defenses will be too low to be comfortable
If you can ensure early access to Agile AoMF, dex based is certainly viable - you can still kill a CR=level enemy in two rounds.