Need help with a rogue / assassin build. Player bored I think...


Advice


Soooo... my rogue turned assassin at lvl 8. They weren't doing too well till then and now they're doing worse. Basically, they might as well sit out the battle. What the player has been doing is studying the target for 3 rounds after which (a) the others have already killed said target or (b) the attack fails or the target saves. And that's about how every battle has been going for them. Oh, and they die a lot which doesn't help. They've been very useful in scouting and disarming and stuff but still... So I told the player they may respec (they can't change their stats or the levels they've taken in each profession but everything else can change). I'm unfamiliar with how an assassin is build or played, have never had one in any group I played with. So here's what they have:

Rogue 8 / Assassin 5
CE Human
HP: 50, AC: 18

STR: 16 (+2 item), DEX: 20, CON: 8, INT: 17 (+6 item), WIS: 10, CHA: 14

Death from Above, Dodge, Fast Getaway, Fiendish, Hellcat Stealth, Iron Will, Ledge Walker, Mobility, Shadow Duplicates, Skill Focus, Weapon Finesse

Equipment: Leather armor, Dagger

Any advice on what they should have (feats, equipment, anything)? Any advice on how they should play in battle?


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yeah. the assassin prestige class is largely a trap for that reason. assassins function in teams with either other assassins, or alone.

I'd recommend a rebuild to a slayer. They function far more similar to what this character sets out to do, and at level 10, can do far better what they want. its not too far away.

This is the advanced slayer talent that can be picked up at level 10:

Quote:

Prerequisite(s): Advanced talents

Benefit: A slayer with this advanced talent can kill foes that are unable to defend themselves. To attempt to assassinate a target, the slayer must first study his target for 1 round as a standard action. On the following round, if the slayer makes a sneak attack against the target and that target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly killing the target. This attempt automatically fails if the target recognizes the slayer as an enemy. If the sneak attack is successful, the target must attempt a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the slayer’s level + the slayer’s Intelligence modifier. If the target fails this save, it dies; otherwise, the target takes the sneak attack damage as normal and is then immune to that slayer’s assassinate ability for 24 hours.

its basically a better version, as it only takes one round. as well, the slayer gets sneak attack, though at a slightly slower rate, but has D10 hit dice and better saves than your rogue build does, so will be sturdier and die less. Studied target provides better to-hit bonus, and really, i'd just take a look, show your player, and see what they say. Most of your feats will still be applicable, so will your target, etc.

Slayers are a hybrid class of ranger and rogue, so your player will have a lot of familiar feeling, but without a lot of the traps they've fallen into.

I can provide a full build if you'd like, but yeah. builds that take 3-4 rounds to do anything just dont work in pathfinder, because combat doesnt last that long. its that simple. any build that has that as a requirement should be rethought.


Weables wrote:

yeah. the assassin prestige class is largely a trap for that reason. assassins function in teams with either other assassins, or alone.

I'd recommend a rebuild to a slayer. They function far more similar to what this character sets out to do, and at level 10, can do far better what they want. its not too far away.

This is the advanced slayer talent that can be picked up at level 10:

Quote:

Prerequisite(s): Advanced talents

Benefit: A slayer with this advanced talent can kill foes that are unable to defend themselves. To attempt to assassinate a target, the slayer must first study his target for 1 round as a standard action. On the following round, if the slayer makes a sneak attack against the target and that target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly killing the target. This attempt automatically fails if the target recognizes the slayer as an enemy. If the sneak attack is successful, the target must attempt a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the slayer’s level + the slayer’s Intelligence modifier. If the target fails this save, it dies; otherwise, the target takes the sneak attack damage as normal and is then immune to that slayer’s assassinate ability for 24 hours.

its basically a better version, as it only takes one round. as well, the slayer gets sneak attack, though at a slightly slower rate, but has D10 hit dice and better saves than your rogue build does, so will be sturdier and die less. Studied target provides better to-hit bonus, and really, i'd just take a look, show your player, and see what they say. Most of your feats will still be applicable, so will your target, etc.

Slayers are a hybrid class of ranger and rogue, so your player will have a lot of familiar feeling, but without a lot of the traps they've fallen into.

I can provide a full build if you'd like, but yeah. builds that take 3-4 rounds to do anything just dont work in pathfinder, because combat doesnt last that long. its that simple....

Thanks! It seems good. The story of the character is that they started out as a street rat and then joined an assassins guild (this happened in the campaign) so Slayer -from what I'm seeing- won't change the characters story, just the abilities. Studied target seems to provide a consistent bonus to attacks, which is nice, and as you said the d10 will help though I think they will need to pump up their constitution a bit anyway. The skill points are good too, so they player can maintain their role as the party's scout.

Death attack hasn't worked for the player a single time by the way. Just once when the party snuck up to a low level guard and the assassin took him out. But that was out of battle.

If it's not too much fuss to provide a build, I'd appreciate it.


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so i was bored, and if this is too much, i apologize. i did a full build, including gear for standard wealth by level showing what typical gear (just the big six items, really) could get you in terms of saves, to-hit, typical stuff. i tried to keep the general theme, as many feats as i could. Hellcat stealth is still there, trapfinding, assassinate, and i included fast stealth so your player can fulfill their scouting duties quickly and efficiently. I only included like half the skill points (bluff, perception, stealth, disable) to show you the main skills, but theres still a ton more skill points I didnt spend.

the build takes advantage of the dirty trick combat maneuver as a way to get sneak attack if flanking or stealth isnt available. quick dirty trick means that you can forgo your first attack to blind your target, and greater dirty trick means it lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, and cant be removed round one. This a. gives most monsters a 50/50 chance to hit you, because you're considered invisible, and sneak attack is activated for you, and they're flat footed for everyone, not just you. You can also take the rest of your attacks per round and enjoy your sneak attack.

The attack bonus I've listed assumed studied target, but as a swift action, its very easy to apply. I managed an AC of 27 with absolutely no effort, and you could get higher. for most CR9 creatures, thats about a 50/50 chance to hit you with their best attack. saves are reasonable, a +9 will should be decent enough at that level to pass most difficult saves at least half the time, and for a martial that's alright.

hopefully you like. can PM me directly if you have questions if i dont answer here.

Guild Rat Slayer
Human slayer 10 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 53)
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 17, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 80 (10d10+20)
Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +9
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +19/+14 (1d6+7/19-20 plus 3d6 sneak attack) or
+2 short sword +19 (1d6+6/19-20 plus 3d6 sneak attack)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, studied target +3 (3rd, swift action)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +15 (+19 dirty trick); CMD 29 (31 vs. dirty trick)
Feats Combat Expertise, Greater Dirty Trick[APG], Improved Dirty Trick[APG], Iron Will, Quick Dirty Trick[UC], Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Stealth), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +14, Disable Device +22, Disguise +1, Intimidate +1, Perception +23, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +26, Survival +4
Languages Common
SQ slayer talents (assassinate [DC 20][UC], fast stealth, finesse rogue, trapfinding[ACG], underhanded trick), stalker, track +5, trapfinding +5
Other Gear celestial armor, +2 short sword, +2 short sword, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1, 5,980 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Assassinate (DC 20) (Ex) Can kill unaware foe with a prepared sneak attack (Fort neg).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Fast Stealth (Ex) Move at full speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Greater Dirty Trick Dirty Trick penalty lasts 1d4 rds, +1 per 5 over CMD and takes a standard action to remove.
Improved Dirty Trick You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
Quick Dirty Trick May perform a dirty trick in place of your first melee attack.
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Stalker (Ex) Studied target bonus applies to Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth as well.
Studied Target +3 (swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to Survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Underhanded Trick Dirty Trick blinding can't be removed for 1 rd. Can ignore pre-reqs of Greater Dirty Trick.

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A human slayer 13 with the assassinate advanced talent, OK. Maybe drop Str to 14 and raise Con to 13.

Feats & talents
1: weapon finesse
Human: TWF
Talent 2: trapfinding
3: extra slayer talent (aligned sneak attack)
Talent 4: ranger combat style (quick draw)
5: skill focus (stealth)
Talent 6: ranger combat style (improved TWF)
7: hellcat stealth
Talent 8: sever alignment
9: lunge
Advanced Talent 10: ranger combat style (two-weapon rend)
11: greater TWF
Advanced Talent 12: assassinate
13: silent kill or terrifying assassination, depending on the player's style.

This uses two-weapon fighting; I assume the character can get a second dagger? If not, I guess I could remake it for a single weapon.

Edit: interesting to see the differences with Weable's build. Mine's more focused on full attack damage, his on the dirty trick combat maneuver.


@Weables Thank you VERY MUCH! Glad you were bored! This looks great! Send it to the player and the like it :) They were very, very impressed with the AC 27, kinda tired of dying and reincarnating into different forms :P

I may have more questions when we look at it in detail later but why the two short swords?

@Avr Yes, they can get a second weapon. They are at Egorian, haven't spend any money so they have about 50000 gold sitting there unused. Thank you! I'll check it out in combo with what Weables send.


Honestly, I just grabbed two martial weapons that were readily available. any weapon is perfectly fine. the difference between a short sword and a dagger is 1 average damage per hit, and a dagger is more easily hideable on your body and has other advantages. the main thing is that they're light weapons to work with two weapon fighting.

I definitely went with a less balls to the wall offensive build, and one with a bit of control, for several reasons.

1. Your players eventual goal is to kill things some of the time via a save or die, so trying to kill things via sneak attack every time and sinking every available resource into it may not be the best route.

2. Your player is dying a lot. Giving them crowd control options via dirty trick will help mitigate that, rather than leaving them to the mercy of trading full attacks with an opponent and praying they kill them before they get killed.

3. improved and greater two weapon fighting, with the penalties to attack, are less effective and prone to missing. greater two weapon especially, with a -10 to hit, really isnt going to be effective all the time, so I included the basic two weapon fighting because the basic -2 (offset by the +3 from studied target) shouldn't be a hindrance and will make up for the attack you lose from the dirty trick in the first place.

edit: also, make sure you're taking advanced of the focused study alternate racial trait. if you want skill focus for hellcat stealth, theres absolutely no reason not to take it and get another free skill focus at level 8 (which i used for perception)

If you wanted to go for more damage, you could trade out iron will for improved two-weapon, or even accomplished sneak attacker, adding 1d6 to the attacks you already have with better attack bonuses might be better off than adding another attack in general.

Really though, both paths are totally valid, and there are other ones too. If you're going the full sneak attack route, I might include the pressure points rogue talent in order to do strength damage with every sneak attack and weaken any possible counter-attack that way. I always like to include some sort of minor control at least with my melees, because running up, hitting something, then praying you don't die kinda sucks.


Weables wrote:

Honestly, I just grabbed two martial weapons that were readily available. any weapon is perfectly fine. the difference between a short sword and a dagger is 1 average damage per hit, and a dagger is more easily hideable on your body and has other advantages. the main thing is that they're light weapons to work with two weapon fighting.

I definitely went with a less balls to the wall offensive build, and one with a bit of control, for several reasons.

1. Your players eventual goal is to kill things some of the time via a save or die, so trying to kill things via sneak attack every time and sinking every available resource into it may not be the best route.

2. Your player is dying a lot. Giving them crowd control options via dirty trick will help mitigate that, rather than leaving them to the mercy of trading full attacks with an opponent and praying they kill them before they get killed.

3. improved and greater two weapon fighting, with the penalties to attack, are less effective and prone to missing. greater two weapon especially, with a -10 to hit, really isnt going to be effective all the time, so I included the basic two weapon fighting because the basic -2 (offset by the +3 from studied target) shouldn't be a hindrance and will make up for the attack you lose from the dirty trick in the first place.

edit: also, make sure you're taking advanced of the focused study alternate racial trait. if you want skill focus for hellcat stealth, theres absolutely no reason not to take it and get another free skill focus at level 8 (which i used for perception)

If you wanted to go for more damage, you could trade out iron will for improved two-weapon, or even accomplished sneak attacker, adding 1d6 to the attacks you already have with better attack bonuses might be better off than adding another attack in general.

Really though, both paths are totally valid, and there are other ones too. If you're going the full sneak attack route, I might include the pressure points rogue talent in order to do...

Thank you. I didn't mention this but there's enough damage going around with a 2 handed fighter, a ranger, a two weapon rogue. Control is much better. Will have a small test run with the player out of game to see how this works for them :D


sure thing. feel free to pm me directly if you want more advice specifically.


How the poop does an 8th-level rogue only have an AC of 18 when he has Dodge and Dex is his highest stat? (Is he still in nonmagical leather?) Why does he have Weapon Finesse on his feat list? (Is he unaware of Unchained Rogue?)

Quote:
So I told the player they may respec (they can't change their stats or the levels they've taken in each profession but everything else can change)

Have your players abused the Retraining Rules in earlier games? (Just curious why you're curtailing it.)

Let him retrain into the Eldritch Scoundrel and Bruiser archetypes, and/or Arcane Trickster. The character is otherwise wasting his huge intelligence score that could easily have been dumped as far as it'd go and still be netting him 7 points per level as a human. (Rogues do not need an 8th/9th/etc maxed skill; every other class in the game someone manages with far less.) A single fighter, or other martial-class, level would help out tremendously in the proficiencies department.

Build would be something like: Swashbuckler1/uRogue[Eldritch/Bruiser]4or6orX/TricksterX (in this stack, Swashbuckler provides that Finesse that Bruiser forfeits).

~ ~ ~

Boredom.... Might it just be <clouds part, ray of sunshine> that a (I'm just guessing here) young male player is now over his chaotic-evil phase and tiring of a character indulgent of those themes? Keep an eye on him, and if he starts doing non-evil things, have him "fall" UPward!


Slim Jim wrote:
How the poop does an 8th-level rogue only have an AC of 18 when he has Dodge and Dex is his highest stat? (Is he still in nonmagical leather? Yes) Why does he have Weapon Finesse on his feat list? (Is he unaware of Unchained Rogue?Yes)
Quote:
So I told the player they may respec (they can't change their stats or the levels they've taken in each profession but everything else can change)

Have your players abused the Retraining Rules in earlier games? They've never retrained. Never asked for it. And this seems like such a mess that I thought... just reroll it(Just curious why you're curtailing it.)

Let him retrain into the Eldritch Scoundrel and Bruiser archetypes, and/or Arcane Trickster. The character is otherwise wasting his huge intelligence score that could easily have been dumped as far as it'd go and still be netting him 7 points per level as a human. (Rogues do not need an 8th/9th/etc maxed skill; every other class in the game someone manages with far less.) A single fighter, or other martial-class, level would help out tremendously in the proficiencies department.

Build would be something like: Swashbuckler1/uRogue[Eldritch/Bruiser]4or6orX/TricksterX (in this stack, Swashbuckler provides that Finesse that Bruiser forfeits). Not bad but the player is new and I think this will be confusing. This is their second PF game and in the first they played a pure ranger

~ ~ ~

Boredom.... Might it just be <clouds part, ray of sunshine> that a (I'm just guessing here) young male player is now over his chaotic-evil phase and tiring of a character indulgent of those themes? Keep an eye on him, and if he starts doing non-evil things, have him "fall" UPward!

I laughed at the last paragraph. The player is female and the campaign in Hell's Vengeance. Exited to play evil but if you ask me edging upwards all the time. The party isn't murderhobos or something but the particular player is... confusing evil with neutral.


New daily obedience: must kill a kitten.

(More seriously, though; have her train two levels to Rogue[Eldritch Scoundrel] at next level-up, then four the next, then all the rest at the next. (And switch rogue straight over to uRogue, which will mainly be invisible to the player aside from picking up a feat-slot and getting a few extra points with one weapon.)

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