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Hello again, people, and here I am with another thread related to skills. This one is less of a "rethink how the system works" and more of a list of small suggestions on how Skill Feats can work to make them cooler. In my opinion, of course.
Without further ado... Catfall is awesome, I guess most people can agree with that. And since I really liked this style of feat and I have a lot of free time because I'm unemployed, I've decided to make a Catfall-style feat for each skill. I'm not a game designer, these are probably not going to be very balanced, but they are more to show the potential that this system has. Some of those were also designed to substitute and/or pack together a bunch of the less interesting feats.
Arcane Scholar
Prerequisites: trained in Arcana
You studied hundreds, maybe thousands of books, scrolls and did experiments related to the arcane arts. You treat a critical failure in a Recall Knowledge check related to Arcana as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Arcana, you treat a critical failure in a Identify Magic check as a normal failure. If you are a master in Arcana, you can now critically succeed in a Recall Knowledge check related to Arcana, and if you do, the DM might give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Arcana, you treat any success ina Recall Knowledge check related to Arcana or a Identify Magic check as a critical success.
Marathon Runner
Prerequisites: trained in Athletics
Your intensive training lets you run a lot better than a normal person. You can Hustle for 1 hour without being Fatigued instead of 10 minutes. If you are an expert in Athletics, you incrase your speed by 5 feet. If you are a master in Athletics, you can hustle at full speed without ever getting Fatigued. If you are legendary in Athletics, you are immune to the Hampered condition.
Crafting Artisan
Prerequisites: trained in Crafting
You can now try to craft an item that is of one level higher than yours. If you are an expert in Crafting, each day you spend to reduce the price of crafting an item counts as 2 days. If you are a master in Crafting, you can try to craft an item that is of two levels higher than yours. If you are legendary in Crafting, you can still craft an item even if you fail, but you spend the maximum ammount of both time and materials to do it.
Master of Lies
Prerequisites: trained in Deception
You are so used to lying that you learned to mask your lies and don't look as bad if you are caught lying. If you fail a Decepcion check to Lie, the target only gains a +2 circumstance bonus against your future lies. If you are an expert in Deception, they gain no bonus instead. If you are a master in Deception, you can retry any Deception check you make to lie by twisting the story you told. If you are legendary in Deception, people initally believe all of your lies, unless the DM decides that lie is too unbelievable to be affected by this feature.
Cunning Diplomat
Prerequisites: trained in Diplomacy
You are very good at negotiating, flattery and gathering information. You treat a critical failure in a Gather Information check as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Diplomacy, you treat a critical failure in a Make an Impression check as a normal failure. If you are a master in Diplomacy, you can now critically succeed in a Gather Information check, and if you do, the DM can give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Diplomacy, any creature that is not hostile has a one step better attitude in relation to you.
Better Feared than Loved
Prerequisites: trained in Intimidation
You've learned to intimidate people to get the results you want, looking more intimidating than you normally would. You can treat any critical failure in a Coerce check as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Intimidation, your targets become frightened 2 if you succeed in a Demoralize check against them (but not fleeing). If you are a master in Intimidation, you treat any success in a Coerce check as a critical success. If you are legendary in Intimidation, you can attempt to Demoralize all unfriendly and hostile creatures within 30 feet of you at once by spending an extra action on Demoralize, then making a single Intimidation check against all of their Will DCs.
I've got one little extra here: Please make a feat that lets you use Strength instead of Charisma for initmidation.
I really couldn't think of anything related to lore, it looks oddly specific to have feats related to it, IMO.
Medical Doctor
Prerequisites: trained in Medicine
You either studied or practiced medicine a lot, and you can do things that commoners might think are magical. When you succeed in a Treat Wounds check, count as if you succeeded (normally) in a Treat Poison check to help the affected creatures as well. If you are an expert in Medicine, when you succeed in a Treat Wounds check, the affected creatures gain extra hit points equal to your level. If you are a master in Medicine, when you succeed in a Treat Wounds check, count as if you critically succeeded in a Treat Poison and Treat Disease check to help the affected creatures as well. If you are legendary in Medicine, you gain a special use of Medicine:
Stich Limb
You spend 8 hours trying to stich back a limb of a humanoid that was lost less than 72 hours ago, then attempt a Medicine check. The DC is usually the hard DC for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances, such as trying to rest during volatile weather or when treating magically cursed wounds.
Success: The limb is stiched back and goes back to normally working after 1 hour.
Critical Failure: You can't try a Stich Limb check again with the same limb for the same patient.
Nature's Friend
Prerequisites: trained in Nature
You have a connection to nature and also studied a lot about it. You treat a critical failure in a Recall Knowledge check related to Nature as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Nature, you can give specific and complex commands to an animal that's obeying you, and they can understand and will try to follow your orders in the best way possible. If you are a master in Nature, you can now critically succeed in a Recall Knowledge check related to Nature, and if you do, the DM might give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Nature, you can try a Handle an Animal check against a hostile or unfriendly animal to make its attitude towards you indifferent.
Occult Investigator
Prerequisites: trained in Occultism
You deeply studied about things that other people probably find unsettling and wouldn't even come close. You treat a critical failure in a Recall Knowledge check related to Occultism as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Occultism, you can Read Esoterica at the same speed you would read a normal text, and you treat a critical failure in a Read Esoterica check as a normal failure. If you are a master in Occultism, you can now critically succeed in a Recall Knowledge check related to Occultism, and if you do, the DM might give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Occultism, when you succeed in a Recall Knowledge check to know about a creature of occult signifcance, you know what is its highest and lowest stat, what it is vulnerable and resistant to, and if it has an ability or special action that defines the creature, specific details on how it works.
I also couldn't think about anything for Performance, at least for now, I'll add it if I think about something cool later
Theologist
Prerequisites: trained in Religion
You studied a lot of sacred texts and heard a lot from religious leaders. You treat a critical failure in a Recall Knowledge check related to Religion as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Religion, you can Read Scripture at the same speed you would read a normal text, and you treat a critical failure in a Read Esoterica check as a normal failure. If you are a master in Religion, you can now critically succeed in a Recall Knowledge check related to Religion, and if you do, the DM might give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Religion, you gain a special use of Religion:
Ceremony of Protection
You spend 10 minutes doing a ceremony to protect you or one willing creature from outsiders. You spend 50 SP of holy water, silver dust, salt and other religious materials. Until the next rest they make, the affected creature gainst resistance 10 to good and evil damage, and they are immune to any possession effects.
Studious of Society
Prerequisites: trained in Society
You know enough about society in general to know how to survive very well in it and use your knowledge to your favor, and you have a lot of contacts. You treat a critical failure in a Recall Knowledge check related to Society as a normal failure. If you are an expert in Society, when you use Create Forgery, your document can only detected as a forgery if someone is closely scrutinizing the document on the lookout for a forgery, otherwise you automatically succeed. If you are a master in Society, you can now critically succeed in a Recall Knowledge check related to Society, and if you do, the DM might give you additional information on the subject that you normally wouldn't have access to. If you are legendary in Society, you have gathered enough contacts that you can afford a moderate lifestyle for you and up to 9 other creatures for up to one week just by asking for favors, as long as you are in a medium or larger settlement that is not hostile to you. You also know about at least the existance and location of all black markets and secret organizations in said settlements.
Silent as the Night
Prerequisites: trained in Stealth
You have learned to sneak around undetected to even the most keen eyes and ears. If you try to Sneak in a place where the existance of intruders is not known, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the Stealth check. If you are an expert in Stealth, you can treat a critical failure in a Stealth check as a failure. If you are a master in Stealth, you can become sensed if you would become concealed, and become unseen if you would become sensed. If you are legendary in Stealth, creatures can only ever detect your presence (by seeing or sensing) if they are actively looking for you or patroling.
Survivor of the Wild
Prerequisites: trained in Survival
You are used to passing days or weeks in the wild. You treat a critical failure in a Survive in the Wild check as a failure. If you are an expert in survival, you can try to use the Track action again 10 minutes after a failure, instead of one hour, and you can move at full speed while covering tracks. This also applies to up to 9 other creatures that are with you during Exploration Mode. If you are a master in Survival, you automatically succeed in any Sense Direction checks in a terrain type that you are at least a little used to. If you are legendary in Survival, you treat a failure in a Survive in the Wild check as a success, and a success as a critical success. Also, if you critically succeed, you can provide food and shelter for up to 9 other creatures instead of just one.
Sleight of Hand
Prerequisites: trained in Thievery
You can do and conceal small moves of your hands naturally. You treat critical failures in the Disable a Device and Pick a Lock action as failures. If you are an expert in Thievery, you can try a Thievery check to free yourself from items such as a handcuff or manacle, even if both your hands are restrained. If you are a master in Thievery, you ignore all the restrictions on the Steal an Item action. If you are legendary in Thievery, you treat successes in the Disable a Device and Pick a Lock action as critical successes, and you can try those actions using improvised objects in place of thieves tools without any penalty.
I think these are all really cool and I would love the choice to pick them, specially those with special uses.
I really like skill Feats that improve with level.
The only problem I see is remembering everything in high levels
I agree Catfall is awesome, I agree every skill should have scale-able feats and I'm not impressed with many of them.
The problem with giving them specific recommendations is that they can't use them. Having said that, I like some of your ideas.
I have been saying more of the skill feats need to work like cat fall so I approve although I think some of these need some work.
I don't think every skill feat needs to scale fron trained to legendary.
Catfall scales easily because it scales numbers. Some of your feats add extra situations and bonusses and are therefore a but clunky or wordy.
Some basic skill feats might only scale to expert.
Yeah not everyone of them but more that do is a plus! especially if they end in a very legendary kind of feel.
Eh no I like the bonus a +1 here and there but I do think that should be secondary to it unlocking things.
I like this approach, because it makes proficiency really be meaningful. In many cases, now, it’s just an extra +1, especially when it comes to weapon/AC or saves... we need more proficiency unlocks. If we do, we may even get rid of the bonus, that’s not the point of it after all - you already get your rank per level every level.
I like the feats for the knowledge skills here. No crit fail for Recall and another usage on expert and then better and more reliable crits are exactly the "getting better but not just in numbers" that PF2 wants to be.
To give things even more meaning and mass, consider some negative consequences also. Enemies could get negative bonuses if you critically successes or you, the player, get increased penalties if you fumble.
This can be done in variety of ways, some connected to the skill (-2 to perceive the player theft attempt), some not directed connected to the skill that is being explored. For instance, nature focused character may have difficult to grasp the divinity of things, this leading him to disbelieve anything that his mind can't explain as a nature related cause.
As an end note, I think critically failing ought to be a option always. Failing critically is a opportunity for story branching, unconventional plans B, etc.
Btw, on a related topic, flaws are something I wish wore more prominently in the game as it is. Trade-offs increase the weight of every choice.
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I like the idea and much of the examples provided. Some are a bit over the top, which is something you can catch by imagining how fun it would be for PCs to face an enemy with this ability
While reading these, I was thinking we might take a page from Mythic and consider the proficiency of targets, so that for example if you are at least a Master in Diplomacy, you do not automatically fall under the sway of the Legendary Diplomat
I like this idea. Though I'm more of the opinion that theese sorts of things should just be folded into proficiency for skills.
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This is great, but a bit too much considering you have 1 skill feat every 2 levels.
So either divide every feat's benefits into two halves (one lower level, one higher) or just plain reduce the amount of skill feats by half or something.
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This is great, but a bit too much considering you have 1 skill feat every 2 levels.
So either divide every feat's benefits into two halves (one lower level, one higher) or just plain reduce the amount of skill feats by half or something.
I think for some, especially those that end in special capstone abilities for legendary, could benefit from the "Split it up" approach as you mentioned.
Then make them require the previous feat as a Prerequisite and Master level proficiency in said skill.
TBH even the first half of some of these are hands down better than some selections we have offered currently, which is probably why a few seem too strong.
I do appreciate that OP incorporated Tiers of Success into these, because that is something that I think absolutely makes the most sense (it's basically numerical and easy to gauge and mirror across skills).
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I agree that some of the legendary things suggestions are problematic when they are effecting opposed actions against others that might, for instance also be legendary. Having such things be automatic could get us in rules situations where we have immovable objects getting acted upon by unstoppable forces.
The idea of having a tiers of the challenge, allowing someone to potentially not have to be concerned with challenges below their tier, but situations that something brings the tier up, they would still have a challenge.
A legendary diplomat might be able to manipulate a lot of people, phenomenally, but other legendary diplomat, or those with legendary will saves, or legendary sense motives, might all force the tier of the challenge pushed up to Legendary, for instance.
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I am beginning to think that, while I do want skill feats to scale wih proficiency, I also want proficiency to mean more than just an etra +1. While I do understand the impact a simple +1 can have on the tight math, it does not feel as relevant when one sees it on paper.
As a consequence, I would hope something like this becomes an innate benefit of expert/master/legendary skills, and somethting similar gets added to weapon and armour proficiency, possibly following the idea of saves: if a Master save lets you treat successes as critical successes, why not having a Fighter who is a Master of blades treat Disarm success as critical successes while using a rapier?
Having XML weapon proficiency impact manouvers would have the additional benefit of making Monks master of judo, which I believe everyone would love.
Not sure what to place for armour, but then again armour needs a bit of work regardless.
As for Performance, I raised the issue a while ago that Performance as a skill does not actually have mechanical functions - so why not add them?
A character Trained in Performance could use the skill to Create a Distraction or Make an Impression (borrowing the activities from the corresponding skills). An Expert could use it to Tumble Through or Conceal an Object. A Master could Impersonate and treat successes as criticals. A Legend would be able to Escape and treat failures as successes.
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I am beginning to think that, while I do want skill feats to scale wih proficiency, I also want proficiency to mean more than just an etra +1. While I do understand the impact a simple +1 can have on the tight math, it does not feel as relevant when one sees it on paper.
As a consequence, I would hope something like this becomes an innate benefit of expert/master/legendary skills, and somethting similar gets added to weapon and armour proficiency, possibly following the idea of saves: if a Master save lets you treat successes as critical successes, why not having a Fighter who is a Master of blades treat Disarm success as critical successes while using a rapier?
Having XML weapon proficiency impact manouvers would have the additional benefit of making Monks master of judo, which I believe everyone would love.
Not sure what to place for armour, but then again armour needs a bit of work regardless.As for Performance, I raised the issue a while ago that Performance as a skill does not actually have mechanical functions - so why not add them?
A character Trained in Performance could use the skill to Create a Distraction or Make an Impression (borrowing the activities from the corresponding skills). An Expert could use it to Tumble Through or Conceal an Object. A Master could Impersonate and treat successes as criticals. A Legend would be able to Escape and treat failures as successes.
I think Jason mentioned that if they reduce item bonuses, that frees up some pluses that could be relocated to proficiency.
Yeah, but that’s bonus maths. I am more concerned about meatyness.