Dump Stats


Creating a Character


I recall seeing some early discussion (read: August) regarding Int being the new dump stat, especially beyond Lvl 1 due to knowledge skills getting spread across Int and Wis, as well as Lore not being overly useful. Has there been any change in opinion on this as the playtest has gone on?

The other stat I see as relatively worthless now is Str. Unless you want a few % chances higher to make that climbing roll with Athletics, Str isn't really doing much for you beyond level 3. The moment your 1d4+1 Rogue or that 1d12+4 Barbarian gets that potency rune, the stat bonus from Str means very little. It's exacerbated with each + from the potency runes. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely certain that I don't like the extra dice rolls for damage. They're kind of fun to toss around. But it makes the Str bonus weak at best, and at worst, completely worthless. Chucking around 4 dice at 12th level makes that extra +5 (if you're lucky) not feel like it's a worthwhile investment. And I know there are probably a few items to artificially boost your Str to get the bonus up another point or two but the scaling in general just doesn't seem to make it worth it. Give me Wis, Cha, Con, or even Dex at this point.

((Disclaimer: this is coming from someone who was running a Vesk Armored Brute in Starfinder punching people at 1d4+14 at level 4. I'll take my flat guaranteed stats any day of the week, thanks.))

But am I way off? Or is this kind of the meta that's developing so far? Admittedly, I've been GMing this entire test, so the one thing I've not had careful attention on is the actual character building process.


Strength increases damage by letting you use a better damage die. But yes, str, int, and cha are currently under powered compared to ability scores that boost your saves wis Dex and con


I'd say it is still mostly INT.
CHA has it's uses in that Spell Point/Resonance/whatever it is called now pool and STR as stated above still increases your damage somewhat.
INT is now the only ability score that doesn't do anything useful, especially with the way the Skill system "works" now.
So...expect a lot of really stupid characters in your games now


When my Str bonus is increasing on a linear growth pattern while my damage dice increase exponentially, I still maintain it's worthless mid game and beyond. Add to that many ranged combatants and nearly all casters who won't even use it for damage... It's marginally helpful at low levels for around 60% of builds. That's it.


PhoenixSunrise wrote:
casters who won't even use it for damage

won't they? because one of my playtest players built a wizard with high STR just to see if he could outperform the barbarian character in melee combat. (based on that players theory that PF2 barbarians are seriously underperforming)* and, well, they were about the same level without the wizard's spells

*that was between the 1.3 and 1.4 updates, so the new 1.6 classes might differ, we haven't had the chance to playtest since that update came out


Barbarians didn't get much of a bump in 1.6. I've got a player who's also gone Wizard/Fighter trying to recreate the Magus. But they're in the minority.

The parity in numbers speaks to the +1/level being more of a factor than the attributes themselves, which is probably partially to blame for the stat dumps being what they are.


IIRC it wasn't even a Wizard/Fighter combo but a flat Wizard with INT as obvious dump stat and STR as main stat. the general swinginess of the new system and the wizard critting more often (and hitting slightly more often) than the Barbarian (sheer luck, I guess) made him dealing a little more damage over those two sessions than the Barbarian as a result. I'm not sure the effect would have been the same without maxing STR, though.

(And yes, +1/level is obviously also a huge factor here, but just mentioning that there is a problem with +1/level usually leads to Jason closing the thread, so for the sake of keeping the thread alive, just pretend +1/level is a gift from the gods and nothing better could ever happen to not only RPGs but to gaming in general)


I played an 18 INT Monk in a playtest session, sacrificing STR to get that, and it felt useful. Despite being a barefist brawler, I was the smartest person in the party, thanks to the high INT modifier and the wide range of skills I was trained in. The STR trade-off meant I only lost 2 damage from each hit, which compared to a -4 penalty to a skill check, felt like a fair bargain.

If I weren't trying to be smart, however, I would've dumped INT. WIS and CHA are very good stats.


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PhoenixSunrise wrote:
When my Str bonus is increasing on a linear growth pattern while my damage dice increase exponentially, I still maintain it's worthless mid game and beyond. Add to that many ranged combatants and nearly all casters who won't even use it for damage... It's marginally helpful at low levels for around 60% of builds. That's it.

Your strength bonus also influences your to-hit, and having 2 less to-hit causes your average damage to take a nose-dive, as if you'd taken a weapon two die sizes smaller.

So no, Str is not a dumpstat.


PhoenixSunrise wrote:
When my Str bonus is increasing on a linear growth pattern while my damage dice increase exponentially, I still maintain it's worthless mid game and beyond. Add to that many ranged combatants and nearly all casters who won't even use it for damage... It's marginally helpful at low levels for around 60% of builds. That's it.

You need STR to hit for most melee characters and every plus to hit is essential. Of course it isn’t to useful for casters and bowmen

It also helps bulk.


Hythlodeus wrote:

I'd say it is still mostly INT.

CHA has it's uses in that Spell Point/Resonance/whatever it is called now pool and STR as stated above still increases your damage somewhat.
INT is now the only ability score that doesn't do anything useful, especially with the way the Skill system "works" now.
So...expect a lot of really stupid characters in your games now

At least better than in PF1 since it won't go down to 8 this time.


ChibiNyan wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:

I'd say it is still mostly INT.

CHA has it's uses in that Spell Point/Resonance/whatever it is called now pool and STR as stated above still increases your damage somewhat.
INT is now the only ability score that doesn't do anything useful, especially with the way the Skill system "works" now.
So...expect a lot of really stupid characters in your games now
At least better than in PF1 since it won't go down to 8 this time.

If you use point buy in PF1, sure.


citricking wrote:

Strength increases damage by letting you use a better damage die. But yes, str, int, and cha are currently under powered compared to ability scores that boost your saves wis Dex and con

What do you mean by this? I (and no one in my group) has any idea what you mean by str allowing you to use a better damage die. Best we can come up with is your saying that adding each +1 to damage from str means your average damage is effectively increased to the next die type. IE, the average damage of a character with a +1 str mod using a d6 weapon does an average of 4.5 damage, the same a character with no str modifier would do using a d8 based weapon.


Joey Cote wrote:
citricking wrote:

Strength increases damage by letting you use a better damage die. But yes, str, int, and cha are currently under powered compared to ability scores that boost your saves wis Dex and con

What do you mean by this? I (and no one in my group) has any idea what you mean by str allowing you to use a better damage die. Best we can come up with is your saying that adding each +1 to damage from str means your average damage is effectively increased to the next die type. IE, the average damage of a character with a +1 str mod using a d6 weapon does an average of 4.5 damage, the same a character with no str modifier would do using a d8 based weapon.

If you you're using strength to hit, then strength obviously affects how much damage you do.

If you aren't using strength to hit you're using dexterity to hit, and finesse weapons have smaller damage dice.

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