Clerics and Channel Energy: A compromise.


General Discussion

51 to 58 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

In the low levels of PF1 you had equally (if not more scarce) healing, and in-combat healing was trash until 11th level. When you have to designate cash for a CLW wand, and the game expects you to do this, it's a clear issue of bad design.

Even then, as I've stated, Channel Energy is really only "balanced" from levels 5 to 19. It's broken by 20th level due to the amount of healing power it is compared to others (7 10th level spells is totally not broken guys!), and it's broken by 1st through 4th level by the frontloadedness of it. It's not broken (but still crazy strong) in the levels described because by this point there are options for healing that don't require using Clerics, which aren't trash or super stringent on luck.

The reason Heal gives D8s is because that's all it gives: HP. Lay on Hands gives AC, Soothe gives Saves v.s. Emotional effects, and Goodberry counts as eating food for survival. They are temporary benefits, true, but something that Paizo feels is worth the loss of dice. If we wanted to make Heal have the same dice (which is fine by me, but sacred cows and stuff), it needs to give something in exchange. Maybe temp HP with a duration and value equal to the spell level?


Here is my take, after some thought;

Channel Energy
You gain a pool of positive or negative energy, depending on your deity, as shown on Table 3-9: Deities on page 72-73. Some deities allow you to choose whether to channel negative or positive energy. Once you choose, you can’t change the type of energy you channel, short of an ethical shift or divine intervention.
This pool of energy allows you to cast an extra spell slot for each level of spell you can cast. You can use these slots only to cast spells with the Healing or Positive traits (for positive energy) or the Curse or Negative traits (for negative energy), but you do not need to prepare them beforehand.

This sets up Channel as not uniquely healing in nature, allowing lower slots to be still useful at higher levels, and modular on top of it, allowing for feats that expand on the trait selection (or more simply add individual spells).
The spontaneous casting part makes Cleric into a unique combination of semi-prepared caster and fits the highly situational Divine spell list.

Granted, the downside is that you need to note down which spells qualify (for example, I'm fairly sure very few right now are thinking "this lets you spontaneously cast Disrupting Weapons when you meet undeads!"), but I think it works better as a cornerstone of "Cleric is the best healer" than what any "Cleric can heal three times more than anyone else" could have ever done, and it's still fun for everyone involved.


citricking wrote:

Gorum cleric

18 str 16 dex 14 con 10 int 18 wis 18 Cha
12 + 4 + 3 = +19 to hit
4d12 + 6d8 + 4 + 4 = 61 average damage

Correct me if I've missed something, but wouldn't a 12th-level cleric's channel deal 11d8, not 6d8 since the smite uses the single target damage?


Nightwhisper wrote:
citricking wrote:

Gorum cleric

18 str 16 dex 14 con 10 int 18 wis 18 Cha
12 + 4 + 3 = +19 to hit
4d12 + 6d8 + 4 + 4 = 61 average damage
Correct me if I've missed something, but wouldn't a 12th-level cleric's channel deal 11d8, not 6d8 since the smite uses the single target damage?

Heal and Harm only scale by 1d8 per spell level when used for damage, they only scale by 2d8 for healing.


Nightwhisper wrote:
citricking wrote:

Gorum cleric

18 str 16 dex 14 con 10 int 18 wis 18 Cha
12 + 4 + 3 = +19 to hit
4d12 + 6d8 + 4 + 4 = 61 average damage
Correct me if I've missed something, but wouldn't a 12th-level cleric's channel deal 11d8, not 6d8 since the smite uses the single target damage?

It does not but it should.

If we change it to 11d8 the average damage over two actions is:
cleric: 41.75
fighter: 38.15

So the cleric does barely any more, and is using a highest level spell.


Pre update 1.6 the cleric was the only caster my group would even bother with, I played a divine sorcerer which was honestly terrible, the wizard was boring which actually led to it being buffed because apparently Wizard not being boring is more important than fixing sorcerer and druid was just meh they weren’t terrible but just felt mediocre.

Honestly all the casters need an overhaul as it stands my players have all said if casters are anything like they are now they’ll at best only ever play martials and at worst just not buy the game since apparently fun spellcasters and wands of cure light wounds is what was ruining the world and having to take a day off after EVERY fight is preferable guess we know why they removed age mechanics any humans in the party would die of old age by the midpoint of any campaign.

Sovereign Court

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The reason Heal gives D8s is because that's all it gives: HP. Lay on Hands gives AC, Soothe gives Saves v.s. Emotional effects, and Goodberry counts as eating food for survival. They are temporary benefits, true, but something that Paizo feels is worth the loss of dice. If we wanted to make Heal have the same dice (which is fine by me, but sacred cows and stuff), it needs to give something in exchange. Maybe temp HP with a duration and value equal to the spell level?

See this is flawed though because Heal/Harm DOES do other things too. In addition to being a single target spell, in addition to being able to be cast 3 times in a round, in addition to being able to heal AND damage all targets within 30 feat it heals/deals more than all the other heal spells. And that is BEFORE being specced into healing.

I still advocate that the issue ISN'T Channel Energy. That was hiding the real issue. The real issue is Heal. Either we have healing parity or we don't. Druids rarely get brought up in the healing discussion because they have access to Heal. They can cast Goodberry in the morning and hand them out (like an Alchemist) and still prep Heal to use during a fight. That is great versatility.

The reality is of the healing classes Cleric is the only one really given class feats to support healing. I think if the other classes had access to Heal - or a spell that has actual parity with Heal - and had additional class feat options to spec into healing specific, things wouldn't be so bad.

I made a suggestion elsewhere that maybe Soothe should get an effect like Inspire Heroics where you take an additional action to do a performance check and based on the result Soothe affects additional targets (the amount of healing is reduced to your casting stat). Maybe there is a class feat that allows Soothe and Soothing Ballad to do d8 heals. This starts to create parity. Clerics are still at the top but the distance between the two aren't as big and a group doesn't feel like picking Lem (who never gets picked anyway) destroyed the group.

I'd love to see Alchemist get some way to do a group heal. I keep saying a Healbomb would be fun. It heals the primary target an amount and those around take splash healing. Or even healing darts that obviously would heal less than an Elixir.


Neume wrote:


I'd love to see Alchemist get some way to do a group heal. I keep saying a Healbomb would be fun. It heals the primary target an amount and those around take splash healing. Or even healing darts that obviously would heal less than an Elixir.

Can confirm, Healbombs are one of my favorite abilities in PF1e. Especially with a GM that lets the "int to damage" effect apply to them.

51 to 58 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion / Clerics and Channel Energy: A compromise. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Playtest General Discussion