Lost hope for AR


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Shadow Lodge 5/5

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zauriel56 wrote:
Anyone else lost hope that the additional resources will be updated BEFORE 2nd edition?

Your prayers have been answered.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Huzzah!

Hmm

2/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Cool, many thanks to the organized play team.

Dark Archive

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Good job guys. Well I'll just have to wait a little longer(few months) for Heroes from the Fringe.

Dark Archive

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I believe in you, you can do it.

John Compton wrote:
The team's already compiled several more books' updates, and we have several more that are approaching completion. The aim's to have August, September, and October content updated in the next couple weeks, and we might be able to finish off November or December with that.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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And they did.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Darn. The only thing that I actually cared about (Warrior Poet archetype) isn't legal.

I wonder why not. It really doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. I guess Paizo REALLY hates the glaive :-) :-)

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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Paul Jackson wrote:

Darn. The only thing that I actually cared about (Warrior Poet archetype) isn't legal.

I wonder why not. It really doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. I guess Paizo REALLY hates the glaive :-) :-)

Ooh, time for another round of “why isn’t this material legal?” I might have some time in the next few days to sort through it all and come up with opinions.

(At first glance I agree with you about the Warrior Poet. It is a particularly good 1-level dip for select builds, but you can say the same thing about almost any archetype. Maybe theme or reserved for chronicle.)

Silver Crusade 5/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
Maybe theme or reserved for chronicle.)

Theme seems perfect for PFS to me. And its way too late in the PF1 PFS life cycle for archetypes to be released by chronicles.

I'm betting they just thought it too powerful. I disagree but it certainly isn't underpowered (unlike MOST archetypes :-()

Liberty's Edge 4/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paul Jackson wrote:

Darn. The only thing that I actually cared about (Warrior Poet archetype) isn't legal.

I wonder why not. It really doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. I guess Paizo REALLY hates the glaive :-) :-)

Yeah, I was going to make my last PFS character a Warrior Poet too, but I figured it wouldn't be legalized. They've avoided stuff like Bladed Brush in the past, so something else letting you use Dex with non-standard stuff was likely out as well. Very dissapointed though.. and pretty much locks in that I won't be buying any more books for PF1.

Grand Lodge

The one thing I was hoping for isn't even mentioned in the entry for the Plane-Hoopers Handbook...the alternate heritages for the Oread, Ifrit, etc. Guessing that means they are a no go... :(

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

Not 100% clear since I don't have the actual book at hand, but I assume they are under the alternative racial traits, meaning that they would be legal. Nethys lists them in the sources under "alternative racial traits". And since there is no other mention of them in the AR update, they are likely included.

Not 100% certain, though.

Dark Archive

Bear with me right now, but I am fuming.

A few months ago, I read through the book Heroes from the Fringe and absolutely loved it. The cultural stuff was just amazing. And I found an archetype that would make the exact Samurai that I'd been dying to play in PFS. A Dex based one. I don't care about the Mount or the Banner. Once I saw Warrior Poet, I just knew I had to play one, not to make some overpowered BS damage-fiend(which you can't really even do with this archetype, not anymore than any other class or archetype PAIZO), but a interesting character. Something like Himura Kenshin(Rurouni Kenshin) or Jin(Samurai Champloo). I could just make a swashbuckler or nearly any other class, but its not the same. I know I'm not alone.

Paul Jackson wrote:

Darn. The only thing that I actually cared about (Warrior Poet archetype) isn't legal.

I wonder why not. It really doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me. I guess Paizo REALLY hates the glaive :-) :-)

NewXToa wrote:
Warrior Poet is hands-down my favorite part of the book! It's viable and worth taking, without being overpowered at all.
JohnHawkins wrote:
I do think that the new samurai archetype is one of my favorites of all time and I want to find a way to fit one into a game
Peevenator wrote:
I'm super stoked about it. Since the release of sword saint, I have been trying to figure out a build around what this archetype does with much better grace.

You disappointed not only me, but several others as well.

Paizo, I applaud you for listening to the community's concerns with the Additional Resources and quickly working to update them. To John and the rest of the PFS staff, I gotta be honest, you guys just CRUSHED me with this update. As I explained earlier in another post, my only chance to play your beloved game is in PFS. I live alone in Clemson, I don't have any friends here, and its not easy to make friends since I'm older than almost every other student here. I haven't even been able to play PFS in two months because of my crap job. I look for games online to play on Roll20, but half of those are CORE and most aren't the level range I'm trying to play right now. I'm completely certain that I won't be able to play Pathfinder or PFS again until I go to SCARAB this January. I don't have any home games to use this archetype in.

After I read this book, I immediately came up with a character that I was looking so forward to being able to play, especially with people I usually only see on trips like my PFS friends in Asheville. What are me and the other players that want to be able to have Jininese Elf type Samurai characters supposed to do?

What about this archetype deserved this? This isn't a firearm wielding archetype. It's not a Drow related archetype. There is nothing about the archetype that doesn't fit into the setting or story of PFS. It's Elves and Tian Xia, what is the problem?! I know you ban-hammered Bladed Brush to avoid glaive-based shenanigans, but just allow the archetype and add a PFS clause that says the Warrior Poet cannot use Weapon Finesse with Glaves and/or Naginatas. Is it the Flourishes? They aren't really any better than Rogue or Slayer Talents. The archetype gives a lot, but also replaces a lot as it should. You lose an animal companion on par with a Druid's. Is it the Charisma mod to AC. I could just dip into Unchained Scaled Fist for a better version. And it has one of the better mechanics for adding damage for attacks with Finesse weapons instead of Slashing Grace and Agile. The archetype evens gets a huge NERF to their Challenge ability.

Maybe you guys have plans to add access to the archetype through a boon/chronicle sheet. But why can't just having purchased one of your products be enough. I waited months to find out that I can't use the one thing I've been waiting for, planned out levels for, created a character and back story for, and drew several sketches of. If the archetype ends up on a chronicle sheet or as a boon, I won't be quite so sad about this.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

I feel you. The Warrior Poet was the Archetype I was most excited for.

I really hope it would become available through a boon at least, but most of the boon-only archetypes seem to be more... quirky or more clearly against PFS rules, I really don't understand why this was banned.

It hurts even more because there's no viable dexterity based samurai archetype yet, and while the armored, horse-riding warrior is closer to the historical truth, the dex-based warrior poet is closer to the idealized/anime/pop-culture version.

This was really disapointing.

On the other hand, I'm really surprised to see that Aeon Eidolon subtype is legal. A pet that can scan thoughts and intentions of anything that isn't immune to mind affecting effects? With no DC given for the ability or any way to resist it?
Yes please, totally not breaking any plots of any scenarios >.>


Tommi Ketonen wrote:


On the other hand, I'm really surprised to see that Aeon Eidolon subtype is legal. A pet that can scan thoughts and intentions of anything that isn't immune to mind affecting effects? With no DC given for the ability or any way to resist it?
Yes please, totally not breaking any plots of any scenarios >.>

Envisaging is just telepathy without words. It's not mind reading.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Finland—Turku aka Tomppa

Don't know about that. "Aeons cannot read the thoughts of any creature immune to mind-affecting effects." does sound a lot like mind reading, as does "Instead, aeons mentally scan beings for their thoughts and intentions, and then retaliate with flashes of psychic projections that emit a single concept in response to whatever the other being was thinking. "
Scan beings thoughts and intentions... Other being was thinking... Cannot read the thoughts of any creature immune to mind affecting effects...

Yes, it also says "An aeon’s envisaging functions as a non-verbal form of telepathy." but that's clearly just referencing their ability to retaliate with pictures. Otherwise they couldn't communicate with anything that thinks in words, not pictures, since they wouldn't understand what the other party was trying to say, eh? And if they did understand words/sentences the other party is thinking, then it's no longer non-verbal.

Dark Archive 2/5 ⦵⦵

No War for the Crown chronicles yet either. Pretty sad that something that tied into Season 9 (at least the 1st part) isn't PFS legal yet.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Additional Resources and Signal of Screams blog wrote:
But we're not just bringing you more player options; we're also sanctioning more playable content. In addition to Pathfinder Module: Seers of the Drowned City and Pathfinder Adventure Path: War for the Crown getting finished up soon (expect a blog next month), Thurston Hillman brings three new adventures into Starfinder Society to help elevate your PCs to new level heights—while also taking them to new, terrifying depths.

Source.

1/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

As much as I wanted to play a Warrior Poet as well, I am not surprised it was banned. The archetype gives abilities much more powerful than what it takes away. For many characters, it would have been a must-have level 1 dip.

Dark Archive

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Cyrad wrote:
As much as I wanted to play a Warrior Poet as well, I am not surprised it was banned. The archetype gives abilities much more powerful than what it takes away. For many characters, it would have been a must-have level 1 dip.

I can understand what you're saying, but not more than a level 1 dip in Far Strike Monk, Master of Many Styles, Swashbuckler, or Gunslinger imho. The archetype nearly shunts you into being a Spring Attack-er with its Challenge ability and the lack of choice in bonus feats. The archetype does seem like it gives a lot, but it really doesn't. Finessing glaives or naginatas isn't even that amazing, you can already finesse the Elven Branched Spear. And the archetype was created by Elves, who can treat the branched spear as a martial weapon.

Silver Crusade 5/5

For me, PFS PF1 is pretty much going to end at Gencon. I've played almost everything. PFS seems to be dying locally and it seems to be getting significantly less popular online as well. I strongly suspect that (one way or the other) the PF2 launch at Gencon will just about kill PFS PF1 in those two venues in very, very short order.

So I PROBABLY have time for exactly one more character (I already have lots of active characters). And a Warrior Poet just seemed such a perfect last character.

Thus my great disappointment. Especially when it really doesn't seem that powerful an archetype to me. It gives up a lot for what it gets. Oh, its definitely more powerful than a base Cavalier but so are lots of legal Cavalier archetypes. Its probably less powerful than a Daring Champion Cavalier using an Elven Spear or curveblade, for example.

Oh well. Now I have to see if an Adaptive shifter is viable (I love its flavour) and use THAT as my last character :-).

Dark Archive

Well now I'm over the Warrior Poet stuff. Anyone have an idea what happened with the Hinyasi Brawler? What was broken about it? I decided to make a stiletto boot kicking improvised weapon character and not be s***. I guess I'll just assume the Shikigami Style tree from Martial Arts handbook won't make it through, huh?

Is Hinyasi going to show up as a boon?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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Zero the Nothing wrote:

Well now I'm over the Warrior Poet stuff. Anyone have an idea what happened with the Hinyasi Brawler?

. . .
I guess I'll just assume the Shikigami Style tree from Martial Arts handbook won't make it through, huh?

Because I enjoy playing the "why isn't this legal?" game, I'll hazard a guess and say that you brought up a major issue by mentioning just two out of several items. Within a six month period there was suddenly a LOT of material published for using improvised weapons. It is now possible to do some SERIOUS damage with improvised weapons, especially if the Shikigami Style tree is ruled to work as it appears it was intended, rather than how the text ends up hobbling it.

The text problem:
The Shikigami Style feat says "For every style feat you have that lists Shikigami Style as a prerequisite, treat the improvised weapon as an additional size category larger, to a maximum of three sizes larger than its actual size."

The problem is that style is a specific type of feat, just like combat or teamwork. (The distinction is very important, as it plays into what bonus feats certain archetypes like the Master of Many Styles can take.) Shikigami Mimicry and Shikigami Manipulation are not style feats. In fact, there are no style feats that have Shikigami Style as a prerequisite.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the intention was that Mimicry and Manipulation would add to the damage but it isn't written that way.


So I suspect we will see some of the "improvised" material become legal but not all. Once the review team has a chance to play around a bit and see what builds are possible.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

As for the Hinyasi specifically, it's really hard to see it as anything other than a strict upgrade over the base brawler.

Improvisation Training and Improvisation Mastery together essentially trade the second level bonus feat for the equivalent of a die size increase AND +2 to attack and damage vs. the standard brawler's Close Weapon Mastery.

Improvised Maneuver is just really good. It replaces Knockout (which can be used once or twice a day) with an ability usable every round. Especially if you go the Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp path, it can add up to a lot of extra damage, since you attempt the maneuver AS WELL AS do your normal damage.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Zero the Nothing wrote:

Well now I'm over the Warrior Poet stuff. Anyone have an idea what happened with the Hinyasi Brawler? What was broken about it? I decided to make a stiletto boot kicking improvised weapon character and not be s***. I guess I'll just assume the Shikigami Style tree from Martial Arts handbook won't make it through, huh?

Is Hinyasi going to show up as a boon?

Thanks for mentioning the stiletto boots. I think that solves one of the problems with the build I'm trying to make. TWF with improvised weapons, but it's tough to draw two with the same action. Now I'll have the boots when I only have one "weapon" out.

Shikigami Style looks great as well. We should know soon if it made it to legal or not. Though increasing the damage three size categories is pretty significant, so I'm not holding out hope of that part happening.

I was similarly disappointed when I saw Hinyasi wasn't legal, but I can understand it.

Dark Archive

Kevin Willis wrote:

As for the Hinyasi specifically, it's really hard to see it as anything other than a strict upgrade over the base brawler.

Improvisation Training and Improvisation Mastery together essentially trade the second level bonus feat for the equivalent of a die size increase AND +2 to attack and damage vs. the standard brawler's Close Weapon Mastery.

I see your point, but I don't completely agree about a straight upgrade. Improvised weapons are always going to be at a disadvantage from lack of enhancement bonuses and special material options. You can use Gloves of Improvised Might, but they get really expensive really quick, just like AoMF. There are options to add the effect of special materials to weapons like Blanches or Quickmetal Bracers, but these options don't last very long. You have to jump through some hoops to get the same things normal weapons do.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Kevin Willis wrote:
Zero the Nothing wrote:

Well now I'm over the Warrior Poet stuff. Anyone have an idea what happened with the Hinyasi Brawler?

. . .
I guess I'll just assume the Shikigami Style tree from Martial Arts handbook won't make it through, huh?

Because I enjoy playing the "why isn't this legal?" game, I'll hazard a guess and say that you brought up a major issue by mentioning just two out of several items. Within a six month period there was suddenly a LOT of material published for using improvised weapons. It is now possible to do some SERIOUS damage with improvised weapons, especially if the Shikigami Style tree is ruled to work as it appears it was intended, rather than how the text ends up hobbling it.

** spoiler omitted **
So I suspect we will see some of the "improvised" material become legal but not all. Once the review team has a chance to play around a bit and see what builds are possible.

Actually I can see that easily becoming legal as the only problem with that style chain is that its missing the prerequisites which is fairly obvious and an easy enough fix.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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Shikigami Manipulation has some serious concerns as well.

Shikigami Manipulation wrote:
...you can treat any magical item you’re using as an improvised weapon as if it granted an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1), to a maximum bonus of +5.

There are quite a few "not normally a weapon" magical items whose cost is far, far lower than their caster levels would normally signify. Either because of historical caster levels or construction prerequisites.

For example, a lesser merciful metamagic rod is only 1500 gp for a CL17 item.

A traveler's any-tool is 250 gp and is CL8. In the hands of a character with Shikigami Manipulation that's a two-handed +2 weapon.

Grand Lodge

I can definitely see Shikigami style being banned from PFS...1500gp for a +4 weapon could very much break things. Or even better, Feather Tokens are only 50gp for a CL12 item, which translates to a +3 weapon.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Pearl of power slingstones HURT


So... I know that I do not have any stars, and I do not have much experience of actually playing Pathfinder, (Only had the past 2 years worth of experience, despite having collected the books and theory built characters during the full 10 years), but are there rules of how much damage a Rod and an Ioun Stone would actually deal?

They both seem like 1d2 weapons at best (becoming 1d6+4 weapons at best after a four feat investment), but is there a thread or list or actual rules to point to that would distinctly show the amount of damage these items would do? I guess the Ioun Stone could be used in a Sling, but then you get into the slippery slope that a Sling isn't an improvised weapon and wouldn't count towards Shikigami Style even if you used an Ioun Stone as ammunition.

A lot of the "+3" and "+4" items described seem to be really small items. The biggest item I have concern for is the Sledge. While there are no magical Sledge items available, it is still 4d6 damage at level 1 and upgrades to 6d6 damage at level 5 (Human is required, and a Class that gives Catch Off-Guard for free).

I could see Manipulation being banned, as this would prevent abuse from both ends of the spectrum, but I hope Shikigami Style and Mimicry are still available afterwards.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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*waits for the OP to come back*

Scarab Sages 4/5

Remember it’s a +4 to-hit as well as damage.

Compare the ioun stones to a set of 50 +4 shuriken. 32,300+ for the 1d2+4 shuriken vs 1,250 for 50 dull grey ioun stones at 1d6+4.

Now, the shuriken can be drawn as a free action, and there’s not really a way I see to do that with the stones barring GM call. But the ioun stones arguably aren’t destroyed when they are thrown, so you really don’t need 50 of them.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Quickdraw would let you chuck and draw quickly

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shadowhntr7 wrote:


Yeah, I was going to make my last PFS character a Warrior Poet too, but I figured it wouldn't be legalized. They've avoided stuff like Bladed Brush in the past, so something else letting you use Dex with non-standard stuff was likely out as well. Very dissapointed though.. and pretty much locks in that I won't be buying any more books for PF1.

Yeah, there was a pretty hard push about "Dex the omni-stat" and it led to these kinds of options normally not making the cut :P

Scarab Sages 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quickdraw would let you chuck and draw quickly

I think it's probably at best table variation whether or not quickdraw works with improvised weapons. I did a lot of searching putting together my thrown improvised weapon build and couldn't find anything definitive, so I've decided to assume it doesn't work and just build in a different solution.


Ferious Thune wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quickdraw would let you chuck and draw quickly
I think it's probably at best table variation whether or not quickdraw works with improvised weapons. I did a lot of searching putting together my thrown improvised weapon build and couldn't find anything definitive, so I've decided to assume it doesn't work and just build in a different solution.

It would require an additional 2 feats - Improvised Focus (Improvised Weapons count as Weapons for feats, and you count as having Weapon Focus for said weapons) along with the actual Quick Draw feat. That is 6 feats total for getting Dull Ioun Stones 'omph', which could also be used to give the same - if not more - amount of 'omph' to Shuikens/Daggers.

Did not know that it also gave +4 to-hit, my bad. I still believe that (if anything) only Manipulation should be banned, since Mimicry and the base feat don't really do anything other than make Improv more deadly.

Scarab Sages 4/5

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I’d rather just see a limit placed on the bonus you can gain, so manipulation is still available for the increased damage. There’s a whole other thread discussing this, though, so I won’t rehash everything here.

I didn’t know about Improvisational Focus, but it doesn’t seem to do what you think. I don’t see in there anything that says it will work like a weapon for all feats. Just that you can select Improvised Weapons for feats that require you to pick a specific weapon they work with. Which Quick Draw does not.

My workaround was a level of Monk of the Empty Hand. So I’m drawing an actual weapon using QuickDraw, then throwing it as an improvised weapon (a club as bowling pin for a juggler bard build). I’m not actually trying to pull ioun stone shenanigans. But bumping that up to 2d6 or 3d6 base would be great.

The problem with Quick Draw working with improvised weapons is that everything could be considered an Improvised Weapon. So suddenly you can Quick Draw rods (that aren’t explicitly also weapons) and any number of wondrous items.
EDIT: What I mean is some rods are explicitly weapons, and can be used with quick draw. Others, like meta magic rods, are not, and can’t. But they would be improvised weapons, so a feat allowing all improvised weapons to be used with quick draw would change some of the basic action economy limitations on other areas of the game.

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