Do improved familiars spell resistance increase with HD?


Rules Questions


For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?


Zautos' wrote:

For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?

no. ‘Effects’ like sleep where low HD are affected differently. Familiar abilities do not adjust for master level.


Lelomenia wrote:
Zautos' wrote:

For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?

no. ‘Effects’ like sleep where low HD are affected differently. Familiar abilities do not adjust for master level.

There is no actual proof of that and the ability certainly isn’t worded in such a way to imply that, though it is a popular opinion.

I’m a little surprised it never got a FAQ, as it is an old question.


Melkiador wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Zautos' wrote:

For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?

no. ‘Effects’ like sleep where low HD are affected differently. Familiar abilities do not adjust for master level.

There is no actual proof of that and the ability certainly isn’t worded in such a way to imply that, though it is a popular opinion.

I’m a little surprised it never got a FAQ, as it is an old question.

it didn’t get a FAQ because it was answered in errata.


Lelomenia wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
Zautos' wrote:

For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?

no. ‘Effects’ like sleep where low HD are affected differently. Familiar abilities do not adjust for master level.

There is no actual proof of that and the ability certainly isn’t worded in such a way to imply that, though it is a popular opinion.

I’m a little surprised it never got a FAQ, as it is an old question.

it didn’t get a FAQ because it was answered in errata.

What errata? Source? I'm looking at the latest printing and the text still looks the same:

Quote:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of

Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Nothing in that text implies this is only meant for effects that target the familiar, but for any effect related to number of Hit Dice.


I’ve seen it referenced that Breath Weapon DCs go up for familiars, so why not SR?


DaLucaray wrote:
I’ve seen it referenced that Breath Weapon DCs go up for familiars, so why not SR?

That'd be really interesting. Can you find a source? I've heard that there are conflicting examples, with some sources statting out a familiar with modified DCs and others neglecting to do so. But I've never been able to find a quotable example.


Melkiador wrote:


Quote:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of

Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Nothing in that text implies this is only meant for effects that target the familiar, but for any effect related to number of Hit Dice.

Effects related to HD and abilities HD affects are quite different things.

An ability that HD affects might cause an effect but the ability itself is not an effect, and the effect itself, rather than the ability that manifests it, it not related to HD.


Dave Justus wrote:
Melkiador wrote:


Quote:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of

Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Nothing in that text implies this is only meant for effects that target the familiar, but for any effect related to number of Hit Dice.

Effects related to HD and abilities HD affects are quite different things.

An ability that HD affects might cause an effect but the ability itself is not an effect, and the effect itself, rather than the ability that manifests it, it not related to HD.

I'd say that they are only different in that "changes to abilities" falls in the group of "effects". Like apples fall in the group of fruit.

The thing that bothers me about your interpretation is that there are better and shorter way of saying what you want the rules to say.
Such as, "Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects that target the familiar, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher."

Also, that seems like a rather petty thing to include as an ability, if it's only for things that target the familiar. There's only a handful of abilities that target familiars by hit die in the Core rules.

It's also worth mentioning that this is one of the rules that was copied from 3.5.

Edit: I did dig up an article from Skip Williams saying that it should only be used for effects that target the familiar, but that was referring to other effects of having hit dice like feats and skill points. Abilities possessed by the base creature were not discussed, and none of the familiar options in that discussion had any such abilities.


An effect that relates to number of HD: i.e. a sleep effect that only works on four HD or less.

An affect of having a number of HD: i.e. Spell Resistance of HD + X.

Those are entirely different things. A rule for one doesn't cover the other. Affect and Effect are different words.


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From an old post:

Cevah wrote:

Per an old thread, both James Jocobs and Sean K Reynolds were quoted, on opposite sides.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day.

Since the silvanshee was errata'd, that means they didn't want that portion to level with familiar HD.

So, your spider's poison does improve with level.

And from another:

Cevah wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Well, SKR has left the building, but JJ is still here. And "opposing opinions from two different designers" doesn't really clarify matters.

It is a little surprising that something this basic -- minor, but basic -- has never been FAQed or errataed. The familiar rules are in the core Players Guide, which came out almost ten years ago.

Doug M.

Actually, the errata does clarify matters. It indicates that they did not want the pre-errata version. Since the two options were scales and not scales, and the errata forces not-scales, it implies scales is the default.

/cevah


There is a more annoying answer you could get from all of that though. They never officially decided which way it works, and instead skirted the question by changing the silvanshee.


Cevah wrote:

From an old post:

Cevah wrote:

Per an old thread, both James Jocobs and Sean K Reynolds were quoted, on opposite sides.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day.

Since the silvanshee was errata'd, that means they didn't want that portion to level with familiar HD.

So, your spider's poison does improve with level.

And from another:

Cevah wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Well, SKR has left the building, but JJ is still here. And "opposing opinions from two different designers" doesn't really clarify matters.

It is a little surprising that something this basic -- minor, but basic -- has never been FAQed or errataed. The familiar rules are in the core Players Guide, which came out almost ten years ago.

Doug M.

Actually, the errata does clarify matters. It indicates that they did not want the pre-errata version. Since the two options were scales and not scales, and the errata forces not-scales, it implies scales is the default.
/cevah

It's still annoying to me that we have to do logical equations to figure out something like that instead of someone saying "yes, it affects native abilities that scale based on HD, like breath weapons"


Zautos' wrote:

For example. Inevitable, Arbiter has SR 13 (11+HD)

From familiar on d20pfsrd Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Would this SR increase with level?

Separately, at Wizard 10+, the familiar gets SR of 5+Wizard Level. This SR will definitely will improve.

/cevah

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