| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Huh, I got the impression you'd bailed on the whole enterprise after Whedon's films.
oh yes, I hate Whedon as much as ever, but I will not allow him to take the entire franchise from me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My mistake then!
Well all I know is I still think Thor can out-tank Wonder Woman...but I had no doubt that Ultron could beat up MOST any other AI out there.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Huh, I got the impression you'd bailed on the whole enterprise after Whedon's films.oh yes, I hate Whedon as much as ever, but I will not allow him to take the entire franchise from me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I thought the death battle for thanos and darkseid was spot on. As long as darkseid was in Thanos universe there was no way he could win but as soon as he left he lost the gauntlet's universe he put himself at a huge disadvantage. Now I don't think Thanos would be foolish enough to do that. but it made for a good battle.
Also superman would totally whoop Goku.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had no doubt that Ultron could beat up MOST any other AI out there.
Well . . . besides a realistic general artificial intelligence whose neuron-equivalents fire at ninety-nine percent the speed of light, and who can modify their source code to increase their intelligence at an exponential rate.
I’ve yet to watch a movie with an adequately terrifying AI.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"You can't take the <franchise> from me..."Huh, I got the impression you'd bailed on the whole enterprise after Whedon's films.oh yes, I hate Whedon as much as ever, but I will not allow him to take the entire franchise from me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well all I know is I still think Thor can out-tank Wonder Woman...but I had no doubt that Ultron could beat up MOST any other AI out there.
Eh... in the physical sphere, probably, since his whole thing is "I control all the drones".
But in purely technical terms and with what the AIs can do in the electronic sphere, I'd bet on AM or SHODAN over Ultron. And SHODAN might have a decent chance against Ultron in the physical sphere if you count her abilities to manifest into virtualized reality and control living specimens.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How It Should've Ended did a good Age of Ultron spoof where he just shut down ALL their technology, since, you know, he was in the internet. All the Iron Man suits, all the SHIELD technology...everything. He then turned them all against the Avengers who didn't have tech, and...well, they lost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vid,
Yeah I think Thanos would have thought that through and MAYBE found a way to conjure SOMETHING that could actually kill Darkseid in ANY reality. But that's me.
Orthos,
I'm not convinced SHODAN was/is all that. TVE highlights why I think that.
Also superman would totally whoop Goku.
Eh. While the exact power displayed by Superman has varied from comic to comic, his power has never actually achieved the levels of nonsense the Sayins, Freeza, and the rest can actually do.
Superman has been taken down by:
- rocks
- radiation from rocks
- magic
- Darkseid
- being punched really hard
Superman has been beaten quite a few times, and never really comes out "stronger" for it (barring a few, usually short-lived examples).
But, yes, Superman has had wildly fluctuation power-levels, so it depends on when you choose your Superman that determines what Goku is up against.
You know who else has wildly fluctuating power levels? Goku. The difference is his fluctuations always go up.
But let's be clear. Original DB Goku probably pretty much couldn't beat OG Superman, even though both of them seem to be about the same power-level (they can generally tank a car and some bullets), if only because Goku has less experience, and Superman can likely jump higher and lacks Goku's tail as a weakness - and the car that hits Goku is likely smaller/lighter than the stuff that hits early Supes, anyway (being a capsule car).
But that's pitting a 12 year old boy against full-grown adult man who is not only aware of his powers, but how to use them (except to sign up for the war - apparently X-Ray vision doesn't agree with him passing eye exams; no Supes-punching Nazis, alas). It also doesn't take into account Goku's monkey form, but, again, the tail-based weakness would likely be exploited by Supes, so I'm okay with giving to the alien Supes.
Point in fact, I'd posit that all through the Dragonball Saga - even once the tail is removed - Goku would lose to Supes, if nothing else, simply because Supes was also gaining more (and weirder) powers during that time. (There is quite a bit of doubt here, though, as Supes' weakness to magic is very well documented, and Goku already has his signature move, the Kamehameha wave, which both is and is not "magic" depending on who you ask and at what time. But again, I'll spot Supes.)
The point where I'd draw the line is after Goku's death and resurrection. Now, Superman gets a load of weird powers over time. When, exactly, you select Superman would still determine if Goku wins. But Goku's death marks a notable turning point for the Sayin.
But regardless of all that, once they've both died and come back from the dead, you start having Goku accomplish feats that comparative-Supermen-careers simply can't match. Destroying cities doesn't happen because Goku explicitly fights in the wilderness - but his power level is such that he is explicitly capable of taking on and winning against the worlds' militaries (as is evidenced by his defeat of the Sayins who were previously capable of doing the same). Superman could do this, but not after his rebirth: it took him time to regain that lost power (which is different from Goku; while both required an outside source to raise them - the dragon balls and the holomatrix, respectively -, Goku simply had his power back - Supes had to make do with tech alternatives until he could be plot-deviced back to full power).
From there on, Goku only gets more ludicrous, even as Supes fluctuates as always.
I know there was a time Supes spent in an alt-reality hanging out in the sun itself for fifty years becoming super-powered or something, so that may be a factor in his favor: I'm not too familiar with that story. But Superman has never been able to explode planets. Never been able to cross a stadium the size of the solar system. Never been able to harness "magical" abilities (which explicitly deal with spiritual energy forces): Goku has done these things, as well as survived punches that devastated cities.
Doomsday, as a creature, is about as powerful as an earlier mega-monkey Super Sayin: he goes around, punching planets until life is gone, then goes to the next one. That's pretty much exactly what the super-monkey Super Sayins do, and it's a vague power level, but fairly solid. This power level is able to kill Superman by punching him. Goku exceeds this power level.
(As an aside, the question of speed is a valid one. Goku gains actual teleportation, but Clark is just so daggum fast; that said, it's unclear how quickly, exactly, the people move in Dragonball, as at least one claimant suggests that they actually move as fast as, or faster than, light itself. In Supes' world, when that happens, people start to travel through time; the only person I know that succeeded was the Flash and it ended poorly for him, if I recall. In DB, they just go faster. Different scales and different physics.)
It's not a reasonable match. They're both super-powered aliens. But one can eventually explode planets, and the other can't (though he can tip them out of orbit and eventually travel through time... but that only helps his opponent get strong and healthy again while he's still got his own fatigue to deal with as he travels in his current state, from what we can tell).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also superman would totally whoop Goku.Eh. While the exact power displayed by Superman has varied from comic to comic, his power has never actually achieved the levels of nonsense the Sayins, Freeza, and the rest can actually do.
** spoiler omitted **...
the problem with superman is that he has never been shown knowing how to actually, you know...fight. Be wins with reality shatteringly powerful haymakers. Goku is a trained martial artist from birth. He should dance *rings* around superman.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure about dancing since I still think the Flash is WAY faster than Goku. And yes, while Superman can't ALWAYS keep up with the Flash (any of them) he still manages to get close.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Martial artist? I mean pretty much all the training he has ever had has been str training. They make fun of his stance still in the series. Its all physical ability really.
Hey DB gave examples Superman has basically infinite str and he is fast enough to get from another galaxy to earth in moments. Which I think they calculated it and the number was ludicrous. (That's right he can move at ludicrous speeds.)
Yeah the flash has somehow covered distance faster then instantaneous so there is that.
Martial artist? I mean pretty much all the training he has ever had has been str training. They make fun of his stance still in the series. Its all physical ability really.
In the original Dragon Ball, probably the first episode IIRC, Goku says his grandfather taught him martial arts. Most kids can start learning as early as 4ish, and he's about 12 by that point, so that's 8 years of training. More than enough time to master at least one style if all you do is eat, sleep, and train. Hm. What does Goku do again?
Mostly eat and abandon his son I'm pretty sure.
So yeah he might have some actual martial arts training. Then so does superman as well. I just don't think its fair to say that he spend his whole life on martial arts training more so that he spend his whole life on str training. Really when you to a point when your so much faster and stronger then an opponent no amount of training will save you. DBZ really emphasizes that in the tournaments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mostly eat and abandon his son I'm pretty sure.
So yeah he might have some actual martial arts training. Then so does superman as well. I just don't think its fair to say that he spend his whole life on martial arts training more so that he spend his whole life on str training. Really when you to a point when your so much faster and stronger then an opponent no amount of training will save you. DBZ really emphasizes that in the tournaments.
Most of his training was actually sparring...he also did a lot of meditation with Kami and Mr. Popo, and learning to fight with instinct with Whis. And the abandoning his son? To go train. They make fun of that a LOT in DBZ Abridged. All he ever did was practice fighting - and mostly with people who were themselves expert martial artists.
Actually, style and technique matters a lot in DB and DB Super - just not so much DBZ. As early as Krillin vs. Master Roshi, Krillin is clearly outmatched by Roshi, but he's crafty, and fights smart, and keeps up for a while - and that's why as weak as he is he keeps on fighting, all the way through the tournament of power in Super. Even Piccolo vs Frost shows how style can trump power (although Frost cheating lead to his inevitable loss).
Even in DBZ though, you can see it in the first fight between Vegeta and Goku. Goku has to use solar flare, hit and run tactics, and other smart techniques to beat him in Great Ape mode. At that point, Vegeta was so powerful he was able to crunch Goku's body in his bare hands.
Superman wouldn't even know what to do if presented with someone that much more powerful than him. He'd just be at a complete and total loss.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Besides, as I said earlier - Superman would not kill Goku, which means, given zenkai boosts to Saiyans, eventually Goku would completely outpower Superman, no matter how powerful he actually is. Goku always comes back stronger than the previous fight, 'cause Saiyans.
Besides, as I said earlier - Superman would not kill Goku, which means, given zenkai boosts to Saiyans, eventually Goku would completely outpower Superman, no matter how powerful he actually is. Goku always comes back stronger than the previous fight, 'cause Saiyans.
I mean I'm not gonna guess where goku would be after training with superman for years till he matches his str I think that might be possible. Its not really that fair of a fight then or you have to assume superman also improves as much. Also superman fights people stronger then him or at least close well mostly darkside is the only one I can think of close to his str and Doomsday. Doomsday might be stronger and he fought him so to say he wouldn't know what to do with someone stronger then him is unfair. Also you saying tactics and what have you but superman is way smarter then Goku.
Also superman having infinite strength means no matter how many times you come back stronger you will never reach infinite. that's just math.
If he has to spend years fighting superman to get to his level then its already established whose stronger then isn't it?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Besides, as I said earlier - Superman would not kill Goku, which means, given zenkai boosts to Saiyans, eventually Goku would completely outpower Superman, no matter how powerful he actually is. Goku always comes back stronger than the previous fight, 'cause Saiyans.I mean I'm not gonna guess where goku would be after training with superman for years till he matches his str I think that might be possible. Its not really that fair of a fight then or you have to assume superman also improves as much. Also superman fights people stronger then him or at least close well mostly darkside is the only one I can think of close to his str and Doomsday. Doomsday might be stronger and he fought him so to say he wouldn't know what to do with someone stronger then him is unfair. Also you saying tactics and what have you but superman is way smarter then Goku.
Also superman having infinite strength means no matter how many times you come back stronger you will never reach infinite. that's just math.
If he has to spend years fighting superman to get to his level then its already established whose stronger then isn't it?
It's not about training. It's established in the Frieza saga that when a Saiyan almost dies he gets a MASSIVE power boost.
Senzu beans are a thing. Superman isn't actually infinite, because Darkseid wrecks his face a lot, and nothing is greater than infinite, THAT is just math, and therefore if he WERE infinite nobody would be able to wreck him. So Goku's ability to eventually overcome wins.
He'd come back every day. Literally every day. Goku is that single-minded about fighting, and he'd crap himself at fighting someone as powerful as Superman. He almost creamed his pants when he met Beerus, and Beerus beat him with a flick to the forehead the first time they fought.
And intelligence is not the same thing as being a hardened tactical warrior. Intelligence is the capability to learn overall, but Goku is a tactical genius - he is smart about ONE thing and one thing only. He's practically a fighting savant.
Not infinite everything just pure str is infinite and it does depend on the writer.
The reality is the longer the character is around especially for comic books the more stories and the higher places they reach combine that with multiple people writing the character the characters exploits become that much more incredible. Superman has been around almost longer then anyone else so the things he has accomplished are that much greater. Superman wins because he always has a new height he can reach. No training required he just does it. If he has to move the planet to save the day he will.
Superman has been in more fights then goku too btw.
Also your premise is good but it does have some factors. Maybe superman will get stronger from fighting goku heck maybe he might learn some techniques. Superman throwing around ki as well. that line gets to theoretical imo. the DB based it around the fact they had and if you go with pre-crisis superman (the one that blew away a galaxy with a sneeze.) Its just silly.
I'll give you another example of the limitation of the facts as presented. Lets say we were going to use 1-punch man. Now his whole thing is he beats everyone with one punch but if you measure him by his accomplishment and to be fair he hasn't ever showed his limitations or his whole power and the whole point is he is infinite. But if you threw him into a fight with another character the best you could do is rate him on what he has accomplished by the feats presented. Those you can actually assign a value too. Or at least thats the limitation I see. So we could say in theory maybe goku can train with 1-punch and become just as strong but its way more theoretical then saying well. goku once blew up a moon (I don't think he has actually but piccolo has and wasn't even that big of a deal I guess?) which requires x much expenditure of energy and generates y many newtons of force. While superman has survived such and such newtons of force etc. etc. So maybe in theory goku could get that strong but I could also say that maybe superman would get stronger as well.
Also DBZ just has the most bizarre power scaling that doesn't really make that much sense. That issue goes deep.
Of course the really bottom line is the writers preference who would write the story sense of course they are all fantasy characters limited by the writers imagination.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So can we go back to the magic rocks/gems that grant people crazy powers now?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fair enough.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So can we go back to the magic rocks/gems that grant people crazy powers now?
Counterpoint: we don't know what the Dragonballs are made of, so they could be magic rocks that grant people crazy powers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So can we go back to the magic rocks/gems that grant people crazy powers now?Counterpoint: we don't know what the Dragonballs are made of, so they could be magic rocks that grant people crazy powers.
I vaguely recall they turn into featureless grey boulders when inert.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So can we go back to the magic rocks/gems that grant people crazy powers now?Counterpoint: we don't know what the Dragonballs are made of, so they could be magic rocks that grant people crazy powers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Orthos,
The MCU stones might do that, but to my knowledge, (even after the color swap) the comic book ones still work even when you use them together.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Orthos,
The MCU stones might do that, but to my knowledge, (even after the color swap) the comic book ones still work even when you use them together.
I was talking about Dragonballs, not infinity stones.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh...Well I thought you meant the stones did that too...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
We should use the Dragonballs to wish for Thanos' hands to fall off before he can use the gauntlet. Now whatcha gonna do, Angry Purple Genocide Man?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Use his ridiculous strength to turn the gauntlet inside-out like a cotton glove and wear it on his other hand.
hands
Holy SNAP! He's got three hands!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I missed the S
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
And lo and behold, the Infinity Footie Pajamas were created, with gems in each elbow, each knee, and the top of each foot. More difficult to don, especially without hands, but let me tell you - so much more comfy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And lo and behold, the Infinity Footie Pajamas were created, with gems in each elbow, each knee, and the top of each foot. More difficult to don, especially without hands, but let me tell you - so much more comfy.
I would wear the daylights out of these. I don't even care.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Could be worse. Could be the Infinity Speedo. No one would fault a character for failing to remove that...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some how I think he'd make either an Infinity Crown or maybe an Infinity Gun...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But that's so much less traumatizing.
So much less.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd rather think if Thanos is going to traumatize people, he'd do it like he did to this guy: How Thanos traumatizes people
Could always work like ion stones. I'm pretty sure that's how there being held in the current infinity war storyline.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I always wondered why you need the gauntlet itself. If you have the reality stone, change reality so your body can have them all jammed inside of your chest or something. No need to wear medieval armory unless you actually want to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe the same reason characters started carrying around butterfly nets in 1st edition to snatch up them ion stones. Just something to make sure no one snatches one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vagrant, I'm not convinced you CAN wear them inside one's body. Mostly because it doesn't seem like anyone else tries it...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm you could probably give yourself an exoskeleton and then make little bony protrusions that you could mount them in.. like really once your practiced with them you should be able to do anything. Oh I got it just use the mind gem to make a repulsion type effect like the spell whenever someone even thinks about stealing one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vagrant, I'm not convinced you CAN wear them inside one's body. Mostly because it doesn't seem like anyone else tries it...
Thus changing reality so that you can. Power isn't actually infinite if it has limitations. Just cause it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. No one has used the gauntlet to turn the planet Saturn into all purple gummi penises that taste lemon flavored and explode when exposed to saffron, either, but you could.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thomas,
At one time Drax was the keeper of the Power stone. He swallowed it. It worked fine inside of him. Too bad Thor hit him in the gut hard enough to get him to spit it back out. So there IS a precedent for internalizing the stones. This was back in the days of Warlock and the Infinity Watch.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lathiira,
I must have missed that issue. But thanks for pointing it out!