The Gods' Pact


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Exactly what the terms are of the gods' pact is that keeps them from doing useful things and effecting lasting change is unknown. Supposedly it has something to do with not interfering with the lives of mortals, but obviously it doesn't stop them from destroying populated cities, answering prayers (sometimes), inventing new types of monsters, and giving people sunburns or temporary blindness.

I know that the pact was left "intentionally vague" by the setting's creators, but I'm running a game in Golarion right now and I've no idea how much deific interference there should be, since the rules and limits to their powers seem inconsistent/contradictory. No one knows what the gods' pact is, but does anyone have an idea what it could be? Can someone draft a pact that explains the gods' frankly absurd behavior?


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Whatever works best for your game.


Sure, sure.

But I'm wondering what that is. I'm having a hard time thinking of a set of rules for the gods that's consistent with what's already been established, as well as limiting their interactions with the world.


The rule of thumb that I generally use for this "Pact Primeval" is that only select deities are privy to ALL of the details, as they were around when it was drafted and sealed, leaving all the new deities somewhat ignorant of the finest details. In so much as what I have delved into what would logically work in the universe, there has to be some sort of binding on the exact powers a deity can manifest into the Material realm, though it is not an absolute binding as no sane deity would intentionally give away all of their freedom to exercise their power.

I would imagine that there is some sort of cost involved with how directly a deity chooses to influence the Material realm, allowing those who are willing to deal with the consequences to act as they see fit, as well as allowing other deities to interfere with a lessening of the cost/burden on their own actions. Checks and balances. Also, Gozreh physically inhabits Golarion, so... watch out.

Also, I would imagine that certain types of deities would choose to honor the letter of the Pact, some the spirit of the Pact, and others seek to work around it to further their own intentions.


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Your first mistake was assuming consistency in the Golarion cosmology.

The short version is there isn't any. It shatters horribly on any form of scrutiny and to try and make order of it is going to be an excercise in logic torture and futility. Just work make up your own rules and write off stuff that doesn't fit as aberrations or stuff that caused a cosmic kerfuffle or something.


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Remember that Golarion is The Cage, keeping Rovagug imprisoned in its core. How exactly his prison works is a mystery, but it was created with the participation of many gods, some of them of opposing alignments. I imagine that the Pact is somehow necessary to keep Rovagug imprisoned. And him getting free is something no one wants.

It may be even older, and be necessary for the functioning of the Material Plane, River of the Souls and maybe the Outer Planes themselves. Breaking it may stop the inflow of the souls to the Outer Sphere, and again, this is something no deity wants.


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Adjoint wrote:
It may be even older, and be necessary for the functioning of the Material Plane, River of the Souls and maybe the Outer Planes themselves. Breaking it may stop the inflow of the souls to the Outer Sphere, and again, this is something no deity wants.

Indeed. The Planar Adventures tells us that souls, and the energy they accumulate through the soul cycle, actually fuel and make up the essence of the outer planes, which the Maelstrom continuously breaks down and recycles. One could imagine that this representation of Chaos and the Order imposed on it by the cycle of the souls is what fuels the powers of the Gods and what keeps Rovagug at bay.


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The notion is that say, Iomedae could walk up to Abrogail Thrune and slay her, and with a glint of light off her shield eradicate the fiendish armies of Cheliax and something something something Good is victorious. The primary reason why they do not is that if a deity does that Asmodeus might say, smite Mendev into the ground in retaliation. This exchange quickly leaves the planet dead and barren while the highest power beings of the multiverse duke it out for superiority. Much like the reason nuclear states don't throw nuclear missiles out at each other willy nilly, deities do not intervene directly. They use their proxies and occasionally directly intervene with an individual, where the cosmic consequences are probably not significant enough to warrant retaliation.

I guess that is to say, there is no literal pact, just an understanding of actions and consequences.

After all, when Desna smote Aolar was probably the closest the multiverse has come to ending in all out God-War. That's the Cuban Missile Crisis in my twisted analogy. Don't examine it too hard.


Whatever the DM feels like to be honest. I doubt any DM would write a novel size "contract" saying exactly what the gods are and aren't allowed to do.


I’m sure I read something about gods being especially cautious about manifesting on the material plane and getting directly involved in mortal affairs since the death of Aroden caused them to doubt the extent of their immortality.


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Decimus Drake wrote:
I’m sure I read something about gods being especially cautious about manifesting on the material plane and getting directly involved in mortal affairs since the death of Aroden caused them to doubt the extent of their immortality.

There were earlier events that already made them wary. When Acavna died trying to protect Azlanti from the aboleths' magic was the first instance proving that mortals may be able to kill gods. Lamashtu also was able to kill Curchanus only because she drew him away from his territory.


Adjoint wrote:
Remember that Golarion is The Cage, keeping Rovagug imprisoned in its core. How exactly his prison works is a mystery, but it was created with the participation of many gods, some of them of opposing alignments. I imagine that the Pact is somehow necessary to keep Rovagug imprisoned. And him getting free is something no one wants.

Ooh. I like this idea, it gives them a reason to create a Pact to limit their powers.

DeathlessOne wrote:
Indeed. The Planar Adventures tells us that souls, and the energy they accumulate through the soul cycle, actually fuel and make up the essence of the outer planes, which the Maelstrom continuously breaks down and recycles. One could imagine that this representation of Chaos and the Order imposed on it by the cycle of the souls is what fuels the powers of the Gods and what keeps Rovagug at bay.

Hmm . . . this and the above post fix one of the biggest problems with the Golorian cosmology, that the good and evil gods have no motive for working together.

Yqatuba wrote:
Whatever the DM feels like to be honest. I doubt any DM would write a novel size "contract" saying exactly what the gods are and aren't allowed to do.

I would. I would write such a novel sized contract, though I'd prefer one a wee bit smaller. I like my worlds to make sense, that's why when I GM it's usually in a setting of my own creation. But I'm running an AP in Golorian right now, and it grates. Erastil cursed someone by turning them into a bear, and gave someone else dreams leading them to where it happened. I just can't wrap my head around it. If Erastil's allowed to interfere with mortals, why not do something more useful than turn a bloke into a bear? Why not, I dunno, cure malaria and stop the Chellish from murdering their way across Varisia? You'd a nigh omnipotent LG entity would have more impact on the setting then turning people into bears.

My players are already somewhat off the rails, and I've already made plans for modifying the AP, scaling up some encounters, tying some people's backstories into the plot, including some improvements to the later books I found online - that kind of thing. But something that I need to know is, what the limits are on deific interaction. At what point do they intervene? How do they intervene? In order to run the game in a self-consistent way, I need to answer these questions.


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Hmm . . . this and the above post fix one of the biggest problems with the Golorian cosmology, that the good and evil gods have no motive for working together.

What gave you the impression that they had no reason to work together, at least in the greater scheme of things? I am honestly curious.

Quote:
I would. I would write such a novel sized contract, though I'd prefer one a wee bit smaller. I like my worlds to make sense, that's why when I GM it's usually in a setting of my own creation. But I'm running an AP in Golorian right now, and it grates. Erastil cursed someone by turning them into a bear, and gave someone else dreams leading them to where it happened. I just can't wrap my head around it. If Erastil's allowed to interfere with mortals, why not do something more useful than turn a bloke into a bear? Why not, I dunno, cure malaria and stop the Chellish from murdering their way across Varisia? You'd a nigh omnipotent LG entity would have more impact on the setting then turning people into bears.

Cursing a single individual or sending someone dream visions isn't a great abuse of divine magic, not really. Deities interact with the mortal world ALL the time in this setting, they are just limited (one would expect) to the extent of influence they can bring to bear before reality (and thus the cage that holds Rovagug) begin to buckle.

A good rule of thumb I use in these situations, just to keep everything flowing along a logical level of realism, is that if a 20th level wizard could do it on a whim, so could a deity without breaking any sort of Pact limitations. Is it a good idea to be throwing around that kind of power on the mortal realm? Probably not. Think of it like a high intensity laser. Limited exposure to the beam with a high level of refraction isn't going to do much damage, but you concentrate that power and things are going to burn. Mortals, and the reality they inhabit, just are not designed for that sort of interference.


DeathlessOne wrote:
What gave you the impression that they had no reason to work together, at least in the greater scheme of things? I am honestly curious.

Urgathoa is the goddess of, among other things, disease. As in people getting sick and then dying excruciatingly painful deaths.

Sarenrae is, among other things, the goddess of healing. You'd think that Sarenrae would use some of that nifty nigh omnipotence she's got going for her to eradicate suffering and disease.

This brings Sarenrae and Urgathoa into conflict. They can't just ignore each other, because one of them wants to help people and the other one wants people to suffer. Sarenrae can't just write up a peace treaty and let Urgathoa go unchecked; she's causing suffering and Sarenrae is supposed to be against that. The only reason why Sarenrae would create a Pact limiting both her and Urgothoa's ability to enact change is if Sarenrae didn't think she could take Urgothoa in a fight, and in that case Urgathoa wouldn't sign on the dotted line, she'd fight.

DeathlessOne wrote:
A good rule of thumb I use in these situations, just to keep everything flowing along a logical level of realism, is that if a 20th level wizard could do it on a whim, so could a deity without breaking any sort of Pact limitations. Is it a good idea to be throwing around that kind of power on the mortal realm? Probably not. Think of it like a high intensity laser. Limited exposure to the beam with a high level of refraction isn't going to do much damage, but you concentrate that power and things are going to burn. Mortals, and the reality they inhabit, just are not designed for that sort of interference.

Ah, see, but that's setting breaking. A twentieth level wizard could, on a whim, wipe out any of the threats the party is currently trying to stop. The only reason why a twentieth level wizard hasn't, is that there's no twentieth level wizard on call; the nation that sent the party to fight bandits in the woods doesn't have ninth level spells at their disposal. I don't think they even have eighth level spells.

If the gods are as free to act as a twentieth level wizard, you'd think that, caring for the safety of their followers, someone's patron deity would snap their fingers and relocate the bandits to the Boneyard.

The gods have to be less free to act then twentieth level wizards. But I'm having a really hard time thinking about a way to limit their powers that allows them to turn people into bears or change the weather, that doesn't let them turn all of the bad guys into rabbits and let them wander off into the woods. That's what I need help with.


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My interpretation is that a lot of it comes down to free will. This is something most of the gods care about - probably enough to convince the rest to go along with it instead of pushing things.

The aligned outer planes - home of most deities - are quite literally made of the essence of souls (generally those who got tired of their afterlives and merged with their plane). The Maelstrom constantly eats the outer realms and recycles their soulstuff so new people can be born. Enough souls flowing in and you can keep expanding. Not enough souls... and, well, your home plane starts shrinking. Many gods rely on the existence of their followers to support their realm as part of a self-feeding cycle. Bigger realm means more power means more opportunities to tilt the universe in a favorable direction. (Note that the celestial deities tend to be cooperative.)

But without free will, things get a lot harder. If the gods intervene too much, mortals are basically no longer responsible for anything that happens and their decisions have no real impact. They might not get sent to the aligned planes at all. You can't really blame or congratulate someone who's a puppet controlled by a god. There's a reason tools don't have alignments.

For the system to work, mortals need to be able to make choices. And excessive intervention just invites everyone else to get involved and start to exert their will more obviously in as many situations as possible. The problem? For many situations, there are at least two divine or near-divine entities - one for and one against. Conflict everywhere can spiral way out of control, and just about everyone realizes that. (See also: The Abyss) If that group of bad guys gets turned into rabbits, maybe that group of LG apprentice priests gets turned into undead next.

So... gods hold back. They go through intermediaries and generally "make their will known", but in the end, they want mortals to make decisions. Devils make bargains. Demons tempt. Celestials inspire. For that matter, it's usually better to convince people to join you instead of just kill them outright. Kill a Paladin and he probably becomes an archon continuing to fight against evil. Corrupt him, and when he dies, you've got a new Outsider on your team instead (or at least another Petitioner). On the cosmic scale, each soul ain't much, but it adds up.

...

I feel like this may have rambled more than intended. So, uh, short version, free will is important and too much divine intervention violates that. o wo/


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Adjoint wrote:
Remember that Golarion is The Cage, keeping Rovagug imprisoned in its core. How exactly his prison works is a mystery, but it was created with the participation of many gods, some of them of opposing alignments. I imagine that the Pact is somehow necessary to keep Rovagug imprisoned. And him getting free is something no one wants.

Ooh. I like this idea, it gives them a reason to create a Pact to limit their powers.

DeathlessOne wrote:
Indeed. The Planar Adventures tells us that souls, and the energy they accumulate through the soul cycle, actually fuel and make up the essence of the outer planes, which the Maelstrom continuously breaks down and recycles. One could imagine that this representation of Chaos and the Order imposed on it by the cycle of the souls is what fuels the powers of the Gods and what keeps Rovagug at bay.

Hmm . . . this and the above post fix one of the biggest problems with the Golorian cosmology, that the good and evil gods have no motive for working together.

Yqatuba wrote:
Whatever the DM feels like to be honest. I doubt any DM would write a novel size "contract" saying exactly what the gods are and aren't allowed to do.

I would. I would write such a novel sized contract, though I'd prefer one a wee bit smaller. I like my worlds to make sense, that's why when I GM it's usually in a setting of my own creation. But I'm running an AP in Golorian right now, and it grates. Erastil cursed someone by turning them into a bear, and gave someone else dreams leading them to where it happened. I just can't wrap my head around it. If Erastil's allowed to interfere with mortals, why not do something more useful than turn a bloke into a bear? Why not, I dunno, cure malaria and stop the Chellish from murdering their way across Varisia? You'd a nigh omnipotent LG entity would have more impact on the setting then turning people into bears.

My players are already somewhat off the rails, and I've already...

Personally I would present players with a variety of different (possibly even contradictory) explanations as to why gods are inconsistent in the nature and content of their interventions as well as the limitations of their power in the mortal world. All of these explanations would be true though the extent to which they're properly understood would vary.

As for your frustration with why Erastil does what he does well...Erastil moves in mysterious ways; what seem like small inconsequential things for him to do could actually form part of a greater picture that mortals' limited cannot properly perceive; when good deities such as Erastil allow some small evils to happen because they allow for greater good, throw in some stuff about free will, preparing the soul for the afterlife and so on and so forth.

I assume you're certain your players will need this information or is it just for your own sake? Trying to make sense of things in a fantasy setting such as Pathfinder/Golarion can be an exercise in frustration with economics being a famous example of this. There's also the possibility that players just won't show any interest or concern for lore related details.

I know this can happen as it happens to me; I put thought into wider lore and other players just aren't interested. I tend to play magic users and a such a like to think about how my character understands their magic as well as magic in the wider world e.g. how does witchcraft, wizardry and sorcery differ, why to spells need funny words, gestures and components, are spells invented or discovered and so on, just in case another player's character asks something. But they never do.

I also share a need for the world I'm playing in to make a degree of sense and (more importantly) be consistent; I tend to be more concerned with things of a sociological nature since that's a subject I know something about/is of interest to me and thus inconsistencies tend to stand out and eat away a bit more.


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
This brings Sarenrae and Urgathoa into conflict. They can't just ignore each other, because one of them wants to help people and the other one wants people to suffer. Sarenrae can't just write up a peace treaty and let Urgathoa go unchecked; she's causing suffering and Sarenrae is supposed to be against that. The only reason why Sarenrae would create a Pact limiting both her and Urgothoa's ability to enact change is if Sarenrae didn't think she could take Urgothoa in a fight, and in that case Urgathoa wouldn't sign on the dotted line, she'd fight.

Hmm... I think I see where the issue might be. Perhaps, just maybe, you are viewing the deities as some sort of all powerful incarnation of their domains and doctrines, rather than the representatives of those powers instead. Logically, two all powerful beings of diametrically opposed systems must come into conflict if they are attempting to bring their influence to bear on the Material Realm. I do not believe this is the case. Their goals are to harvest souls, and the best ways to do that is through influence on the mortal realm, not deity vs deity warfare.

The Material realm is a proving ground where their IDEAS are being pared against each other and the battle for the souls dictates who wins the conflict. Otherwise, it is simply deity versus deity and that kind of power only leads to destruction of everything else. And, as we see from the Planar Adventures, that will just lead to the Maelstrom consuming everything and a return to pure, raw chaos. No order, no soul cycle... No gods.

Quote:
Ah, see, but that's setting breaking. A twentieth level wizard could, on a whim, wipe out any of the threats the party is currently trying to stop. The only reason why a twentieth level wizard hasn't, is that there's no twentieth level wizard on call; the nation that sent the party to fight bandits in the woods doesn't have ninth level spells at their disposal. I don't think they even have eighth level spells.

I don't see why it is game breaking. It is simply a deity level version of the Cold War. Its not a matter of could they do it, it is why they choose not to (or to do so, in certain cases). If a deity wants to wipe out the party's challenges, than another could simply wipe out the party in retaliation. Turning someone into a bear (ie cursing them) very likely has some important reason behind it and could very well fall into line with what a deity is allowed to do given their respective domain and the choices the mortal made in pushing their luck.

I most often start with the assumption that when a deity takes direct action, even through a minor display of power, they have a fairly good reason to do so. Their ability to do so is not in question, naturally.

Rednal wrote:
I feel like this may have rambled more than intended. So, uh, short version, free will is important and too much divine intervention violates that. o wo/

Precisely. Not to mention the issue with Rovagug, of course. I think it might be very likely that direct action by the deities in the past actually lead to the threat the Rovagug poses to the rest of the deities. Let the mortals decide. Push a little so that they are not clueless and ignorant, but leave enough room for them to make free choices.


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Erastil cursed someone by turning them into a bear, and gave someone else dreams leading them to where it happened. I just can't wrap my head around it. If Erastil's allowed to interfere with mortals, why not do something more useful than turn a bloke into a bear?

I'll reiterate that the best answer is to have the Gods act, or not act, in the way that brings the most fun to the game.

Now it is fair enough that 'wrapping your head around it' may be import for you to have fun, and you having fun is as important as your players having fun.

If I recognize the particular event you are referring to, it wasn't in fact Erastil just cursing some random bloke. This was someone who already had a connection, allegiance if you will, with Erastil and therefore one would expect that Erastil had pretty much carte blanche in acting how he would in relation to this person. The Gods can screw with their own people as much as they want, but they are limited in regards to other people, especially those that other Gods have a claim on, is one rule that is pretty understandable.

If you need an enforcer, a heavy in the piece, to keep the Gods in line, the obvious choice is Pharasma. She is neutral, so keeping the status quo going is fine with her. She is powerful, controlling the resource of souls that other gods depend on as well as being the closest to an omniscient deity in the pantheon means that plotting against her is going to be pretty tough to accomplish. Of course their are issues that she has particular desires too, no undead being the most obvious and doesn't seem able or willing to just make them all go away, so you have to make a up a limit for that, but it is easy to imagine that she knows if she doesn't limit herself the status quo she has established (and is working out well for her overall) would come crashing down in total conflict.

It is typical in multi-deity fantasy settings that a reasons Gods to oppose one another directly is a kind of mutual assured destruction. Whether Sarenrae could take Urgotha or not is somewhat irrelevant if whoever won would be greatly weakened, perhaps weakened enough that they wouldn't be a god at all anymore. And of course their could be a lot of uncertainly as well, Maybe Sarenrae thinks she has a 75% chance of winning, but would you risk it all on those odds when 'all' is divinity?

One would expect that the particular 'rules' that the Gods had to follow wouldn't necessarily be apparent to mortals, and might sometimes involve a whole lot more than is apparent. Maybe Asmodeus gets to screw with Cheliax for a while, due to concessions on other worlds and planes.

Anyway, there isn't going to be an 'in canon' code of what the gods can and can't do. You can come up with plausible reasons for why a God acted in one case and not in another probably, but certainly there isn't anything that would allow you to predict what the developers will do next time. Personally, I think you will be happiest if you can wrap your head around the idea that the rules of the Gods are an ineffable mystery but if you can't maybe some of the above thoughts will help you build a set of rules you can work with.


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Dave Justus wrote:
[Pharasma] is powerful, controlling the resource of souls that other gods depend on as well as being the closest to an omniscient deity in the pantheon means that plotting against her is going to be pretty tough to accomplish.

I mean, personally I'd take omniscience of the present that happens to work consistently instead of omniscience of a future that doesn't work as well it used to.

Oh wait, I already did.


Nethys, "Elder God" wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
[Pharasma] is powerful, controlling the resource of souls that other gods depend on as well as being the closest to an omniscient deity in the pantheon means that plotting against her is going to be pretty tough to accomplish.

I mean, personally I'd take omniscience of the present that happens to work consistently instead of omniscience of a future that doesn't work as well it used to.

Oh wait, I already did.

Well, there are some hints that that problem doesn't apply to her. She alone seems to know what happened to Aroden, and probably why and likely that it was going to.


New Aroden theory: his prophecied return violated the God's Pact and the penalty clause was invoked proactively.


Decimus Drake wrote:
I assume you're certain your players will need this information or is it just for your own sake?

Oh, I'm positive my players won't need this. If it occurs to any of them to so much as ask, I'll eat my hat. (And it's not a very good tasting hat. I'd know.) Well, maybe one has the proper temperament for poking the game world with a stick - but I could probably answer any questions from her with a shrug, a handwave, and a "not my setting, don't look at it too hard."

This is purely for my own sake.

Decimus Drake wrote:
I also share a need for the world I'm playing in to make a degree of sense and (more importantly) be consistent; I tend to be more concerned with things of a sociological nature since that's a subject I know something about/is of interest to me and thus inconsistencies tend to stand out and eat away a bit more.

That's a good way of putting it - it eats away.

DeathlessOne wrote:
If I recognize the particular event you are referring to, it wasn't in fact Erastil just cursing some random bloke. This was someone who already had a connection, allegiance if you will, with Erastil and therefore one would expect that Erastil had pretty much carte blanche in acting how he would in relation to this person. The Gods can screw with their own people as much as they want, but they are limited in regards to other people, especially those that other Gods have a claim on, is one rule that is pretty understandable.

Saying that the gods can do whatever they want to their parishoners is a good start for the contract; it explains away a lot of things. But it opens the rabbit hole of, why not make their followers stronger than they are? (Turn them into Great Wyrms instead of bears, etc.) So, it's a start . . . thinking.

Thanks for your advice, everyone!


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Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Saying that the gods can do whatever they want to their parishoners is a good start for the contract; it explains away a lot of things. But it opens the rabbit hole of, why not make their followers stronger than they are? (Turn them into Great Wyrms instead of bears, etc.) So, it's a start . . . thinking.

Asking why they don't make their followers more powerful is a good question to ask, if you plan on following that train of thought and expanding upon it. Why don't all of the gods do this? What if all the gods did this? What would the world begin to look like if they did this? It doesn't look like that so there must be some reason why they don't do it.

When I think on the issue, it all has to tie back to the cycle of souls and the entire point of it. If it is free will that allows a soul to accumulate the quintessence of the multiverse, which in turn feeds the growth/stability of the outer planes, imbuing your followers with so much of your divine power is likely to short circuit that procedure and stunt their 'growth' towards their purpose. You are essentially turning them into what they would become AFTER transitioning to the outer realms, and using your powers to directly interfere with the mechanisms of the material universe.

In the end, it harms the very fabric of the system they are all forced to work within, the very system that sustains them. If and when they do interfere on that level, the cost must be outweighed by the benefit. Too much power brought to bear on the mortal realm is going to break things. The Pact exists so that things don't get broken beyond repair. The powers of the gods belong to the Outer Realms, where things are infinite and able to withstand/interact with that power. The Material Realm is neither and must be handled delicately, in a manner of speaking. It is a fragile cage.


Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
If Erastil's allowed to interfere with mortals, why not do something more useful than turn a bloke into a bear? Why not, I dunno, cure malaria and stop the Chellish from murdering their way across Varisia?

Yeah, and why doesn't the USA just nuke all those countries it doesn't like out of existence?

Oh yeah, because then all the other nuclear states would retaliate and the world get turned into an uninhabitable wasteland.

So why don't the gods use their power? Because their enemies would use theirs.


The nice thing about the Pact being between deities is that it doesn't have to make sense to us mortals. If Iomedae says her cleric needs to deliver a shipment of Galtan mustard to an Asmodean temple in Cheliax, theirs is not to reason why.


You can also imagine it's not free for the gods to use their power - they may have a great, but ultimately limited supply. They cannot use more power than they can replenish. While they can perform a miracle from time to time, they cannot afford to do it constantly. If they use power haphazardly, they may end up lacking it when it is more needed. Long term, using mortal proxies, and giving them spending limits (daily spell alotments) may be the most economical way to do the things.

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