Thoughts on the small folk


Ancestries & Backgrounds


This is all lore focused of course and not touching on any issues that might be there as far as mechanics go but after looking through the Ancestries something struck me as odd. Of the three small races none of them have any kind of large scale effect on global politics. None of them have a home state or the likes really. Halflings are content with constantly living in humanity's shadow, gnomes find it hard to settle anything or they'll bleach and die, and the goblins are refugees from decimated tribes. It just feels weird that not 1 but 3 of the core ancestries are people who as a whole have no major influence on the world as a people. Individuals might but without some kind of home turf they're all just little people living in a big person's world.

All I'm thinking is if 2E is set further in the timeline why couldn't halflings have formed some kind of nation, especially since there have been heavy mentions of freed slaves in 1E APs. Or why do the goblin tribes have to be just at the point where they're coming out of hiding instead of already being an active, if albeit small, player on the field. Or we could take a page from Starfinder and have a whole line of bleached gnomes who've settled and seen their influence grow globally.

Thoughts? Ideas?


I'm sure Halflings are content to just have settlements of their own. I don't think they care too much to establish their own country.

I've never been able to get my head behind Gnomes.

As for Goblins...

I suspect there is a whole sect of Torag Paladins who made it their personal mission to make sure Goblins do not have a large settlement of their own.

Dwarves after my own heart :)

Sadly, Goblinoids are no longer listed under the Dwarves' listed enemies.


I could see Halflings having settled in the Mwangi Expanse and yet-to-be-discovered south-sea islands, kind of like pygmies.


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There's no need for Dwarves to list Gobos as enemies if the Gobos are all dead. :)


Gnomes should live within the Black Forest, right? Where did the German states end up in Golarion?


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Chance Wyvernspur wrote:
I could see Halflings having settled in the Mwangi Expanse and yet-to-be-discovered south-sea islands, kind of like pygmies.

Like the old Dark Sun halflings ... those guys were brutal!

So far as goblins forming a nation. I don't know much about the Pathfinder gameworld but if they are all refugees of shattered tribes, they would need two things to found a nation. A person or group of people to bring them together and some place in which to found that nation. Plus there are probably a lot of kingdoms that would be more likely to work to prevent such a goblin kingdom from founding then work to help bring it about.


NikkEatsRocks wrote:
...2E is set further in the timeline ...

Not as far I know, it isn't.

Personally, I think they should set the 2e timeline to 100 to 200 years later and swap out the signature characters for their descendants.
That way the major differences in the game system can be chalked up to 'this is how things are done now'.


Halflings and Gnomes would have to displace or outbreed neighbouring humanoids to establish their own homeland which I just can't see happening. Also, as neither really has a unique culture to speak of, it's far more sensible for them to simply assimilate into existing cultures.

Goblins could outbreed humans and do have a distinct culture, but the specifics of that culture would seem to preclude anything most of us would consider civilization...


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For goblins to have a nation, they would need to be diplomatically recognised by other nations. as something other than a group of maniacs.

When a group of fanatical psychopathic anti-intellectuals claim to form a state, they might be able to provoke a military reaction from other nations. But they won't achieve nationhood.


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LordVanya wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
...2E is set further in the timeline ...

Not as far I know, it isn't.

Personally, I think they should set the 2e timeline to 100 to 200 years later and swap out the signature characters for their descendants.
That way the major differences in the game system can be chalked up to 'this is how things are done now'.

Paizo advanced the timeline by about 10 years, from the date that PF1 was published to the expected publication date of PF2. During that time, the official story is that all PF1 adventures were completed successfully by their respective PC parties, and other changes will presumably be detailed later as needed.

Exo-Guardians

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Goblin kingdom = roving band of pyromaniacs with a dislike for letters. Totally going to get a military reaction out of any kingdom, mostly because said illiterate pyromaniacs will affect trade and overall growth in the kingdom.

In order for a Goblin tribe to ascend beyond being a mere collection of crazed murderhobos who eat their own trash, and everyone else's trash, they need to first recognize that letters are not bad, and that the wheel is a useful tool to move large amounts of trash to store for winter.


David knott 242 wrote:
LordVanya wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
...2E is set further in the timeline ...

Not as far I know, it isn't.

Personally, I think they should set the 2e timeline to 100 to 200 years later and swap out the signature characters for their descendants.
That way the major differences in the game system can be chalked up to 'this is how things are done now'.

Paizo advanced the timeline by about 10 years, from the date that PF1 was published to the expected publication date of PF2. During that time, the official story is that all PF1 adventures were completed successfully by their respective PC parties, and other changes will presumably be detailed later as needed.

Good to know, thanks.

I still think they should bump that up by at least 10 fold.


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LordVanya wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
LordVanya wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
...2E is set further in the timeline ...

Not as far I know, it isn't.

Personally, I think they should set the 2e timeline to 100 to 200 years later and swap out the signature characters for their descendants.
That way the major differences in the game system can be chalked up to 'this is how things are done now'.

Paizo advanced the timeline by about 10 years, from the date that PF1 was published to the expected publication date of PF2. During that time, the official story is that all PF1 adventures were completed successfully by their respective PC parties, and other changes will presumably be detailed later as needed.

Good to know, thanks.

I still think they should bump that up by at least 10 fold.

Wait, I always thought that Kingmaker takes a few decades to finish at least?


I just think it sucks that we're never going to have any real nation in the inner sea region that isnt human centric because halflings are okay with being humanity's butlers, gnomes suffer from magical dementia that apparently small country life is sufficient enough to stave off but nation building or anything larger than a village can't and because goblins are now being portrayed simultaneously as everyone's best friend/comic relief AND vermin scourge that must be eradicated.

I mean if location is an issue we literally have the entirety of the river kingdoms that is more or less up for grabs. Cheliax is more or less ready for another civil war, Taldor to an extent too and both of those could cause a loss of land to be taken over by a different race. Old Azlant just rose from the sea so that's there.


NikkEatsRocks wrote:
I just think it sucks that we're never going to have any real nation in the inner sea region that isnt human centric because halflings are okay with being humanity's butlers, gnomes suffer from magical dementia that apparently small country life is sufficient enough to stave off but nation building or anything larger than a village can't and because goblins are now being portrayed simultaneously as everyone's best friend/comic relief AND vermin scourge that must be eradicated.

Everyone forgets Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains. And to a lesser extent Belkzin and the worldwound.


Richard Crawford wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
I just think it sucks that we're never going to have any real nation in the inner sea region that isnt human centric because halflings are okay with being humanity's butlers, gnomes suffer from magical dementia that apparently small country life is sufficient enough to stave off but nation building or anything larger than a village can't and because goblins are now being portrayed simultaneously as everyone's best friend/comic relief AND vermin scourge that must be eradicated.
Everyone forgets Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains. And to a lesser extent Belkzin and the worldwound.

Besides Five Kings Mountains (which in truth I did actually forget about lol) we've got a kingdom of vehement isolationists who by lore don't want anyone besides other elves around and a "nation" of marauding hordes who will allow you to come in and trade if you're lucky and the worldwound is less of a nation and more an invading force so I really don't think that counts as a nonhuman kingdom

Again I'm just saying that nonhuman races feel like such an afterthought that to have all three of your small core races basically share a backstory of nationless wanderers seems like you're disinterested in having them be a part of the story and if that's the case why should I as a player want them there. If they're so much an after thought that all they get is to be tacked on to other people's stories why even bother?


Richard Crawford wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
I just think it sucks that we're never going to have any real nation in the inner sea region that isnt human centric because halflings are okay with being humanity's butlers, gnomes suffer from magical dementia that apparently small country life is sufficient enough to stave off but nation building or anything larger than a village can't and because goblins are now being portrayed simultaneously as everyone's best friend/comic relief AND vermin scourge that must be eradicated.
Everyone forgets Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains. And to a lesser extent Belkzin and the worldwound.

With good reason. Golarion is relentlessly human centric, and the other races are either slaves (halflings), idiots and cowards (elves), irrelevant (gnomes and dwarves) or monsters (orcs and goblins).


Voss wrote:
Richard Crawford wrote:
NikkEatsRocks wrote:
I just think it sucks that we're never going to have any real nation in the inner sea region that isnt human centric because halflings are okay with being humanity's butlers, gnomes suffer from magical dementia that apparently small country life is sufficient enough to stave off but nation building or anything larger than a village can't and because goblins are now being portrayed simultaneously as everyone's best friend/comic relief AND vermin scourge that must be eradicated.
Everyone forgets Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains. And to a lesser extent Belkzin and the worldwound.
With good reason. Golarion is relentlessly human centric, and the other races are either slaves (halflings), idiots and cowards (elves), irrelevant (gnomes and dwarves) or monsters (orcs and goblins).

I wouldn't really call Dwarves irrelevant, but after some thought: They do not feature a lot.

Bonus points for calling Elves cowards and Goblins monsters. :)

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