The DC to create the item is 5 + the caster level of the item. If you can ignore the caster level that means it means one of two things. The first is that the DC to craft the item cannot be determined and is therefore impossible to create. The second is that the DC to create any item is 10. If the DC to create any item was 10 it would have stated that in the rules, since it does not the first option must be true.
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Caster level doesn't matter unless it's listed as a requirement. The Mossy Disk (Ioun Stone) for example explicitly states that the creator must be level 12 to create it.
I think it's easiest to explain via example. Lets say we have a 9th level wizard who wishes to create a pearl of power (1st) and a Mossy Disk (Ioun Stone). They have the craft wondrous item feat and so they can do this.
The construction requirements for pearl of power are
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled;
Since they meet all of these requirements they then must make a craft check. The craft dc is equal to 5+CL. Since a pearl of power is caster level 17 this DC is 22. Since they aren't being threatened or distracted they are allowed to take 10 on this check.
So, they make a spellcraft check. They have max ranks in spell craft and an 18 int. So their bonus is 9(ranks) +4(from int) +3(prof. bonus) = 16. Taking 10 they get a total of 26 which beats the dc 22 and they create the pearl of power no problem (which costs them 500gp and one day to create).
Now, they move on to create a moss disk (Ioun Stone). It's requirements are
Feats Craft Wondrous Item; Spells fox’s cunning, creator must be 12th level.
They have the spell and the feat, but they are not caster level 12. So, they make use of the following rule.
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
So, our caster chooses to ignore the level 12 requirement which increases the dc by 5. Now they can proceed. So, the dc to create the item is
5+CL+5, which translates to 5+12+5=22.
As before they take 10 on their check and get a 26 which beats the dc 22 check allowing them to successfully create the mossy disk (Ioun Stone) [which costs them 2,500gp and five days to create].
I hope these examples answer your questions.
The pearl of power text is a suggestion, not a rule or even a guideline like the table formulae. There's no hard requirement, only encouragement to adopt said suggestion as a guideline. Going by that principle, it'd make sense to limit metamagic rod caster levels to those that can actually cast spells of said level.
Note that if caster level changes the item's effect (beyond the difficulty of dispelling it, etc.), the cost should be modified accordingly. If it doesn't, don't.
Also note that crafting an item at a lower caster level theoretically makes it easier to craft, but I've seen few GMs who agree to view it that way.
Can a player create a magic item with a caster level higher than their own? One of our players is talking about wanting to make a Meta Magic Rod, the Lesser Dazing one. Look at it, it says that its a Caster Level 17 item...but he's only 10th level.
Can he do this? If he can, is there a penalty to trying to create it?
Also, in "normal" non-magical crafting, it says you can add 5 to the DC to cut the time in half...can you do this for Magic Items? No where in the rules for magic item creation do I see this rule, but the player is saying it exists. I'm not sure that they're not combining the two types of "crafting", which have VERY different rules for how long things take.
Thanks!
17th
DC = CL+5 = 22
Craft Rod, Dazing Spell
If he has the Craft Rod and Dazing Spell feats, then he can, with the DC of 22.
If he has the Craft Rod feat but not the Dazing Spell feat, then he adds +5 to the DC, giving a DC of 27.Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.
...
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
Fast crafting will have a DC of 27 [or 32 if they don't have the Dazing Spell feat].
Can he hit that DC?
10th level caster probably does 5th level spells, min INT of 15. Int Mod of +2. Spellcraft is a class skill. With full ranks, that will give a Spellcraft modifier of 2 [Stat] + 10 [ranks] + 3 [Class Skill] + 10 [Take 10] = 25. Easy to hit the DC 22. If the Int Mod was +4 (INT 18) then making the DC 27 is easy.
Int 18 is quite likely, unless he was not well constructed as a caster [assuming a wizard]. If Int is not the casting stat, things are somewhat harder, but not too bad.
If you are a crafter, then not maxing ranks in spellcraft is a poor choice since it can be used in place of any craft.
Of note are the spells: Crafter's Fortune and Tears to Wine. These can each give +5, but to Craft(X), not Spellcraft. If you are not using spellcraft to make magic items, these spells can really help.
/cevah
If you look at the description of a magic item you will notice that the caster level is not in fact on the Requirement line. It is listed at the top on the same line as the Aura. You will also notice that the cost is listed on the same line as the requirements. Does this mean that you can ignore the cost to create a magic item by increasing the DC by 5?
Letting a character create magic items with no limits will unbalance the game. Requiring the character be a certain level and halving to pay half the cost of the item to create it limits what a character can create. The ability to ignore prerequisites is more to allow spontaneous caster to be able to create more items.
From the Magic items chapter:
Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
Note that caster level has nothing to do with the crafting other than setting the Base DC. Caster Level is mostly just for determining how effective the item is and how hard it is to dispel.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Construction: With the exception of artifacts, most magic items can be built by a spellcaster with the appropriate feats and prerequisites. This section describes those prerequisites.
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, daylight, see invisibility; Cost 4,000 gp
Notice that Cost is separated from Requirements by a semicolon. But I do agree that it's troublesome that Cost could be considered a prerequisite.
Do you know if that's the way item descriptions are formatted in the books? (don't have any of mine around me atm to check)
I know that online I sometimes see it listed as
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 500 gp; Feats Forge Ring; Spells major creation
which makes it look like the cost is one of the requirements that could be ignored. The information is basically the same, it's just a difference in formatting.
Any sane GM is not going to allow a player to ignore cost, and should not allow them to ignore caster level. Since item creation feats are not allowed in organized play that means it comes down to the GM.
If a character can ignore the caster level and cost a 1st level alchemist could have unlimited wealth. Assuming an 18 INT and taking skill focus and prodigy they will have craft alchemy of +13. The DC to create a potion of cure moderate wounds is 8 which would be increased to 18 to ignore caster level and cost. They have 75% chance of success and no chance to create a cursed item. It also only takes 1 day to make a potion. Each potion can be sold for 300 gp. That means the character can make approximately 1,575 gp per week.
The above example is of course absolutely ridiculous but illustrates the point. Even if you cannot ignore the cost ignoring the caster level would still allow you to multiply a characters wealth considerably more than normal.
There is nothing in the rules to even suggest that caster level is a requirement for crafting though, except for the few cases where it is actually in the item's requirement.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 2,000 gp
And this kind of item is probably the best proof that caster level is not normally a requirement for crafting, because otherwise, it wouldn't be listed in the requirements for only specific types of items, but not for other kinds of items.
The problem of ignoring the Cost prerequisite is probably just an error in the rules that hasn't been pointed out before... Or more unlikely, it's an intended option we were never aware of. But my suspicion is that in the rules for crafting where it is talking about ignoring "prerequisites", it should have instead used the term "requirements". It's probably worth a FAQ, but we don't have any evidence that the devs are still caring about those, even in a case like this where the issue/error is pretty huge.
You may have missed my huge blocks of text, but the Cost is grouped in with prerequisites. And the rules for ignoring Requirements only ever uses the term prerequisites, instead of the term Requirements.
I just checked the latest CRB printing and it still uses the same language.
Construction: With the exception of artifacts, most magic
items can be built by a spellcaster with the appropriate feats
and prerequisites. This section describes those prerequisites.
The DC to create a
magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster
does not meet.
So, the Cost issue is probably just an error. Please try stop trying to twist the rules to make them mean what you think they should mean. We find errors in the rules sometimes. This is how those errors are found.
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Items with full descriptions have their powers detailed, and each of the following topics is covered in notational form as part of its entry.
...
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.
Cost is called out as separate to requirements. It cannot be skipped for +5 DC.
/cevah
Cost is separate from requirements. But they are both grouped as prerequisites, under the Construction rules, which is the header right above what you copied from, Cevah. And it is prerequisites that are skipped with the +5 to DC. I agree that it should probably be just "requirements" that get skipped instead of "prerequisites" with that rule, but that isn't what's written. This is likely an error in the rules.
It's ok for the rules to have errors. It's not like they're some divine document. They're just some things that were written by a few humans and then later edited by a few other humans. Humans make mistakes.
None of those sentences contradict though. It’s not like requirements specified that only its entries qualifiy as a prerequisite. So they are both prerequisites with one of the prerequisites happening to have text to reaffirm it’s preprequisite nature. That doesn’t make the other prerequisite any less of a prerequisite.
I'm not really trying to argue intent. I'm pretty sure the intent was for only the requirements to be bypassed, but they mistakenly used the term "prerequisite" in that rule, when they meant "requirement". And somehow, no one has noticed this before. Probably because the two pieces of text in question are separated into different sections.
But everything you've offered so far is merely circumstantial evidence of intent. None of those examples actually contradict Cost being a prerequisite.
Construction: With the exception of artifacts, most magic items can be built by a spellcaster with the appropriate feats and prerequisites. This section describes those prerequisites.
That's all Construction says it does. While it doesn't say that's all that's listed in that section, that's the only thing that's said about what's in that section. There is no reason to think that anything other than prerequisites is listed here.
Why even have the two terms of "requirements" and "prerequisites" if they literally always mean the same thing?
Can a player create a magic item with a caster level higher than their own? One of our players is talking about wanting to make a Meta Magic Rod, the Lesser Dazing one. Look at it, it says that its a Caster Level 17 item...but he's only 10th level.
Can he do this? If he can, is there a penalty to trying to create it?
Also, in "normal" non-magical crafting, it says you can add 5 to the DC to cut the time in half...can you do this for Magic Items? No where in the rules for magic item creation do I see this rule, but the player is saying it exists. I'm not sure that they're not combining the two types of "crafting", which have VERY different rules for how long things take.
Thanks!
So to answer your questions in order;
1: Yes, yes he can. For magic item crafting the only things you absolutely need and can not ignore is; The feat for making the item, at least 1000 gold to get it started (you can put magic item crafting on hold until you have free time/funds to finish it. But you can not start another project until you finish the current one, or lose everything you've done so far to start the new one) and access to the spell while crafting for completion items (potions, scrolls, and wands)
2: Yes he can, it just adds a +5 to the DC for each requirement he can't meet.
3: once again yes you can, works a bit different then normal crafting though. With magic crafting you add +5 to the DC, and instead of progressing at 1000 GP per 8 hours, it is instead 1000 GP per 4 hours (still max of 8 hours per 24 for crafting) and this stacks with all other ways of crafting faster.
Can a player create a magic item with a caster level higher than their own? One of our players is talking about wanting to make a Meta Magic Rod, the Lesser Dazing one. Look at it, it says that its a Caster Level 17 item...but he's only 10th level.
Can he do this? If he can, is there a penalty to trying to create it?
Also, in "normal" non-magical crafting, it says you can add 5 to the DC to cut the time in half...can you do this for Magic Items? No where in the rules for magic item creation do I see this rule, but the player is saying it exists. I'm not sure that they're not combining the two types of "crafting", which have VERY different rules for how long things take.
Thanks!
So beyond the feat requirements, every magic item has a list of unavoidable requirements. Those requirements are the ONLY things that cannot be ignored. For example, the Holy Avenger requires the following:
1 - it's creator must be "Good".
2 - Possess the 8th level Cleric spell "Holy Aura"
3 - 60,630 gp
The finished product is a CL 18 item, so the crafting DC would be 5+18 with an additional 5 for every level lower his CL is than the items. So technically, yeah anyone who has the feat and enough scroll of Holy Aura can craft it, but you'll add 5 to the DC for every caster level that you don't have. If a 14th level good cleric tried to craft a holy avenger, he'd have a DC of 5+18+20=43 and he would need to make that check 61 times. However, no Evil aligned anything could ever craft this item. AFAIK the "add 5 to avoid materials" does not count on anything in the requirements section.
EDIT: I should specify that this rule applies for specific magic items. If you wanted to put Ghost Touch on a +1 mace, you could add 5 to the DC. and not have ghost touch according to the rules, but personally I think that's asinine and that's one of the very few things I'd genuinely not allow if I was running a campaign. And I'm a guy that has no problem with permanent true strike on a weapon.
As for cost being part of the 'requirements' section, its clearly not. Cost is detailed separately and derived from Market Price which is very clearly not in the 'requirements' section. Just because the standard templating places 'cost' after 'requirements' it shouldn't be assumed that it is a subsection. Especially since Cost has its own definition in the APG where these sections were given a definition.
No one is saying that Cost is part of the Requirements section. But it is unarguably part of the Construction section. The book is even more obvious about this, than PRDs. Check out page 500 of the CRB and look at the amulet of Natural Armor. The formatting of the text is more than clear. Cost is 100% a part of the Construction.
And it is the Construction section that identifies the text covered by it as being prerequisites.
As for cost being part of the 'requirements' section, its clearly not. Cost is detailed separately and derived from Market Price which is very clearly not in the 'requirements' section. Just because the standard templating places 'cost' after 'requirements' it shouldn't be assumed that it is a subsection. Especially since Cost has its own definition in the APG where these sections were given a definition.No one is saying that Cost is part of the Requirements section. But it is unarguably part of the Construction section. The book is even more obvious about this, than PRDs. Check out page 500 of the CRB and look at the amulet of Natural Armor. The formatting of the text is more than clear. Cost is 100% a part of the Construction.
And it is the Construction section that identifies the text covered by it as being prerequisites.
AFAIK aiding another in crafting has no effect on the DC, beyond fulfilling the requirements you lack. E.G. if you're a good wizard, and you have an cleric who has Holy Aura in your party, the cleric can help you craft the item since you lack the spell "Holy Aura".
From the magic item creation rules outlined on the SRD: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
"Construction: With the exception of artifacts, most magic items can be built by a spellcaster with the appropriate feats and prerequisites. This section describes those prerequisites.
Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known.
Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. the cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components."
I'm gonna be honest with you, I would never allow you to skimp on materials to create a magic item like that. Despite the insistence that you can raise the DC by 5 and ignore requirements, I have never seen or found that rule and I'm pretty sure that it's nothing more than a widely used house rule. And one that I would not use, as it both makes extremely powerful magic items far too easy to obtain, and also negates any triumph for successfully crafting one. I won't stop a lower leveled player from trying to craft something, IF they can meet all the requirements, but I'm not going to make it easy for a level 12 paladin to get a hold of the single strongest pally weapon outside of major artifacts. I want players to WORK for magic items they get, that's why some magic items have such a disparity between their creation methods. A +6 belt of strength is much easier to make compared to a Holy Avenger, for a good reason. And while any caster who could make a +6 belt of strength could make a holy avenger, they are going to have a LOT harder time making the holy avenger.
You can do what you want with house rules, but all I'm saying is the rules as written are there to prevent power creep, and they work pretty well with only the the REALLY lucky few who gamble on it getting such items early.
I'm gonna be honest with you, I would never allow you to skimp on materials to create a magic item like that. Despite the insistence that you can raise the DC by 5 and ignore requirements, I have never seen or found that rule and I'm pretty sure that it's nothing more than a widely used house rule.
My quotes are almost always from the official PRD, but it's easy enough to find that rule in the Core Rulebook:
-Page 549.-First full paragraph on that page.
-Middle of that paragraph.
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This line of discussion is both pointless and painful.
You can only use the "bypass via +5 to craft check DC" rule with respect to things in the Requirements section, and then only those things that aren't on the list of "things you cannot bypass" restated in the bypass FAQ. You cannot bypass things in the Cost section in this manner. No amount of sophistry will get around that.
You can only use the "bypass via +5 to craft check DC" rule with respect to things in the Requirements section, and then only those things that aren't on the list of "things you cannot bypass" restated in the bypass FAQ. You cannot bypass things in the Cost section in this manner. No amount of sophistry will get around that.
That may be the intent. But the Rules as Written, say that the bypass is for "prerequisites", and Construction declares Cost to be a "prerequisite".
There is no sophistry at play here. The facts aren't false, and no one is trying to deceive anyone. It's merely a fault in the rules. You could say it's a pedantic argument, but being that this is a rules discussion, I'd say that's warranted.
None of those FAQ contradict cost being a prerequisite. If I’ve missed one, please quote it.
That doesn’t contradict Cost being a prerequisite at all. Cost is easily within the bounds of “and so on”. It may even count as a “math requirement”, since it is a calculated value.
It can be used to bypass requirements because requirements are within the category of prerequisites, which can be bypassed. If you can find proof that cost is not a prerequisite, then you might have something. But I see nothing in that faq to suggest such.
If you don’t understand what I mean, then consider that proving a pepper is a fruit does not mean that a banana is not also a fruit.
That still doesn’t say that cost isn’t a prerequisite. Just that requirements lists some of the prerequisites, which was never in question. And worse, that wording would have implied that feats and spells weren’t prerequisites, if you didn’t have outside rules to say they are.
And what are you talking about house ruling? No one here has suggested that cost should be avoidable. Just that the rules mistakenly say that it can be. And this should be fixed.
The APG text doesn’t overwrite the core text unless they contradict though. And there is no contradiction. So it’s just additive.