My wishes for healing


General Discussion


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The way I see it, healing comes in three forms:

* High-intensity healing - this is what you need when the boss just hit you for half your hit points in one attack.
* Low-intensity healing - this is what you do between fights to get up to full strength for the next battle. In PF1, this was usually left for wands of cure light wounds, and in PF2 it's part of the Treat Wounds mechanic.
* Condition relief - removing all sorts of nasty consequences that aren't hit point loss. Poison, paralysis, fear, disease, whatever.

What I want to see is that everyone gets to do their own low-intensity healing, preferably tied to some form of secondary resource. This could be a stamina/resolve system like in Starfinder, or healing surges/hit dice like in 4e/5e, or some other method. I don't particularly like the current implementation of Treat Wounds, because it is very slow at the table, and highly random in its daily output since it stops when the healer crit fails, not when some resource runs out.

Actual healers would then focus on high-intensity healing and condition relief. High-intensity heals need to be big (so they're useful in a fight), but you don't need many of them. The same for condition relief - usually you'd only need a few of them per day. This means that these could be handled via regular spells instead of needing to give clerics half a dozen extras each day, which would also balance out healers a bit more.


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I think Treat Wounds is actually a good solution. The variance between getting 6 good rolls fromy our medic, and nat 1 on the first dice is a bit swingy though, yes. I would say to add a different tracker, but there's enough meta-currencies as-is, so I say either keep TW as-is or remove the crit failure and let it go on and on.


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Kai's wishes for healing...

--| Some form of reliable class agnostic out of combat healing. Treat Wounds checks this box.
--| Default in combat healing can't quite keep up with damage* (Cleric, Druid, Alchemist, etc out of the box).
--| More differentials between Magical Traditions
----| Perhaps Soothe heals and grants temp hp?
----| Primal gets it's own unique healing spell. Perhaps fast healing?
--| Only specialized in combat healing can outpace damage (Healing Domain, Life Oracle, etc).
--| The major healing classes all get Healing specialties (Alchemist, Bard, etc.)
--| More 'interesting' in combat healing options
----| Healing as a reaction (e.g. more spells like Breath of Life)
----| Healing as battlefield control (e.g. more spells like Pillar of Life from PF1e)
----| Healing from more sources (e.g. Bardic Performances, Rituals, etc.)
----| Ridiculously strong in combat healing spells at high levels (e.g. Deathless from PF1e's Mythic Handbook)

*Currently, the default Cleric's Channel Energy is way too strong. I'm okay with strong healing but it should be limited to specialties like the Healing Domain.

Staffan Johansson wrote:
What I want to see is that everyone gets to do their own low-intensity healing, preferably tied to some form of secondary resource. This could be a stamina/resolve system like in Starfinder, or healing surges/hit dice like in 4e/5e, or some other method.

This game really doesn't need another meta-currency. I'd much prefer that they tweak Treat Wounds (or add in fast healing rituals). As it is any Class can invest in the Medicine skill so even if the "healer" critically fails someone else can be the back-up.


How would it sound if full level Heal consumed two uses of Channel Energy, while you could heal at half spell level for just one?
At higher levels, using half spell level yealds about 30% less healing; at low levels it's more unbalanced though.


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Lyee wrote:
I think Treat Wounds is actually a good solution. The variance between getting 6 good rolls fromy our medic, and nat 1 on the first dice is a bit swingy though, yes. I would say to add a different tracker, but there's enough meta-currencies as-is, so I say either keep TW as-is or remove the crit failure and let it go on and on.

The problems with Treat Wounds are two-fold:

1. It is unpredictable. Every time you use it, there's a 5% chance (or possibly more) that you run out for the day (and as an aside, Bolstered should reset on a night's sleep, not 24 hours passing). So some days, you will get nothing from it, and other days you can get hundreds of hit points.

2. It is boring. At worst, you can need 23 successful rolls to fully heal someone (1st level dwarf barbarian with Con +1 has 23 hp and heals 1 per successful roll). Going up to 4th level, he'll need 16 rolls. After that point it will probably go faster (because he'll likely boost Con which will double the healing per Treat Wounds), but that's still a whole bunch of boring rolls.


Staffan Johansson wrote:

The way I see it, healing comes in three forms:

* High-intensity healing - this is what you need when the boss just hit you for half your hit points in one attack.
* Low-intensity healing - this is what you do between fights to get up to full strength for the next battle. In PF1, this was usually left for wands of cure light wounds, and in PF2 it's part of the Treat Wounds mechanic.
* Condition relief - removing all sorts of nasty consequences that aren't hit point loss. Poison, paralysis, fear, disease, whatever.

Makes sense.

Quote:


What I want to see is that everyone gets to do their own low-intensity healing, preferably tied to some form of secondary resource. This could be a stamina/resolve system like in Starfinder, or healing surges/hit dice like in 4e/5e, or some other method. I don't particularly like the current implementation of Treat Wounds, because it is very slow at the table, and highly random in its daily output since it stops when the healer crit fails, not when some resource runs out.

I have some issues with Treat Wounds as well, but I think it's the right direction to use the skill system and just needs tweaking. I'm not a fan of yet another resource or of splitting HP into two separate pools.

If you really want to go that way, a short rest mechanic is much simpler.

Quote:
Actual healers would then focus on high-intensity healing and condition relief. High-intensity heals need to be big (so they're useful in a fight), but you don't need many of them. The same for condition relief - usually you'd only need a few of them per day. This means that these could be handled via regular spells instead of needing to give clerics half a dozen extras each day, which would also balance out healers a bit more.

They can be handled by regular spell slots only if we:

A) get more spell slots, and
B) walk back from Vancian casting

The reason why you had things like spontaneous healing conversion in 1e is that without it, doing serious healing forces you to remove other spells from your options to put in healing ones, which heads in the direction of the dreaded healbot role where you can't do much of anything else.

It's one thing to say "you might need to cast healing from your spell slots so you can do that as needed", but it's quite another to say "you might need to cast an unknown amount of healing tomorrow, so replace half your spell slots with healing spells and hope you get it right."

You could also just give other classes who are set up for healing some on demand healing of their own, like Druids being able to grant Fast Healing.


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I still like the idea of healing items and spells having an out-of-combat utilization which takes several minutes to enact properly, but which adds a significant multiplier to the amount rolled. It's the difference between channeling a burst of positive energy and taking time to concentrate that energy specifically where it's needed, and between gulping a healing potion or using it in combination with bandages and field dressing.

Scarab Sages

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The Once and Future Kai wrote:

Kai's wishes for healing...

--| Some form of reliable class agnostic out of combat healing. Treat Wounds checks this box.
--| Default in combat healing can't quite keep up with damage* (Cleric, Druid, Alchemist, etc out of the box).
--| More differentials between Magical Traditions
----| Perhaps Soothe heals and grants temp hp?
----| Primal gets it's own unique healing spell. Perhaps fast healing?
--| Only specialized in combat healing can outpace damage (Healing Domain, Life Oracle, etc).
--| The major healing classes all get Healing specialties (Alchemist, Bard, etc.)
--| More 'interesting' in combat healing options
----| Healing as a reaction (e.g. more spells like Breath of Life)
----| Healing as battlefield control (e.g. more spells like Pillar of Life from PF1e)
----| Healing from more sources (e.g. Bardic Performances, Rituals, etc.)
----| Ridiculously strong in combat healing spells at high levels (e.g. Deathless from PF1e's Mythic Handbook)

*Currently, the default Cleric's Channel Energy is way too strong. I'm okay with strong healing but it should be limited to specialties like the Healing Domain.

Once and Future Kai and I actually agree on quite a few things regarding he playtest, specifically in regards to healing.

My greatest desire for healing is that healing should feel ENGAGING. Right now, many spells simply don't, and there isn't enough variety. Heal is a great spell primarily because of the action economy nature of it. It's not that is't powerful, but that it's fun to use, and its versatility of use makes it engaging. We need more spells like this. What about a cantrip that tranferred conditions from allies to the caster for X number of rounds? Same action economy and everything (1 touch, 2 ranged, 3 aoe). That creates interesting gameplay, and is something I think healer types would actually really like.

What about Temp HP shield buffers? Reasonable AC boosts (+2 or greater on a regular basis)? Fast healing on Primal heal spells? I've mentioned it in other threads and I'll mention it here, too: Healing needs to feel unique amongst classes, and it should have lots of interesting interactions with the mechanics of the game itself. Heck, it could even interact with different character archetypes in unexpected ways. I love the idea of a Druid Wild Shaping into a troll, then casting a spell that shares his Regeneration with allies. Stuff like that.


Sanmei wrote:
I still like the idea of healing items and spells having an out-of-combat utilization which takes several minutes to enact properly, but which adds a significant multiplier to the amount rolled. It's the difference between channeling a burst of positive energy and taking time to concentrate that energy specifically where it's needed, and between gulping a healing potion or using it in combination with bandages and field dressing.

That sounds neat. :)


My greatest wish to healing is that it should not be REQUIRED to have a healer. Coming from 5e, most of my groups do NOT have a healer. And it works (other things don't work there, in 5e, in a horrible way ^^). But that one aspect I would like ot keep. If you have a group where nobody enjoys being the healer (or only "Occasionaly") the system should support this.

The Treat Wounds Action (or however it is called) is a step in the right direction, but it is still too much dicing.

My issues:

- Sort of makes the long rest weak, it should heal more than "treat wounds"
- So it probably should not be possible to do it "ad infinitum"
- My GM actually suggested to remove the RP cost of healing potions and in the same time remove "treat wounds" - or make it non-repeatable, at the same time remove the roll if you are at least expert or whatever (so the other way round like the PF2 guys designed it), but he also was not sure of it

What do you think on "Healer requirement" ?


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MagicSN wrote:
What do you think on "Healer requirement" ?

There was a thread on this back in September - Does anyone think that Healers should be obligatory in parties?

Repeating my opinion from there...

The Once and Future Kai wrote:

Obligatory? No. Really useful? Yes.

Dedicated healers are a staple of the genre and some people (myself included) actually do enjoy playing them. But they shouldn't be obligatory any more than a party needs an arcane caster or a rogue. Beneficial but not required.


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The Once and Future Kai wrote:
MagicSN wrote:
What do you think on "Healer requirement" ?

There was a thread on this back in September - Does anyone think that Healers should be obligatory in parties?

Repeating my opinion from there...

The Once and Future Kai wrote:

Obligatory? No. Really useful? Yes.

Dedicated healers are a staple of the genre and some people (myself included) actually do enjoy playing them. But they shouldn't be obligatory any more than a party needs an arcane caster or a rogue. Beneficial but not required.

I mostly agree, but with the addendum that multiple classes should be able to fulfill the role of "dedicated healer" more or less equally well, though ideally in different ways (perhaps clerics being best at direct healing, bards at some healing + temporary hp and/or AOE healing, and druids at regeneration). The cleric should not be the only go-to class when it comes to healing.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
I mostly agree, but with the addendum that multiple classes should be able to fulfill the role of "dedicated healer" more or less equally well, though ideally in different ways (perhaps clerics being best at direct healing, bards at some healing + temporary hp and/or AOE healing, and druids at regeneration). The cleric should not be the only go-to class when it comes to healing.

Absolutely. Alchemists, Bards, Druids, etc should all have Healer specializations. I don't like that Cleric, out of the box, is the best Healer in the game...healing outpacing damage should require taking the Healing Domain.


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The Once and Future Kai wrote:
Staffan Johansson wrote:
I mostly agree, but with the addendum that multiple classes should be able to fulfill the role of "dedicated healer" more or less equally well, though ideally in different ways (perhaps clerics being best at direct healing, bards at some healing + temporary hp and/or AOE healing, and druids at regeneration). The cleric should not be the only go-to class when it comes to healing.
Absolutely. Alchemists, Bards, Druids, etc should all have Healer specializations. I don't like that Cleric, out of the box, is the best Healer in the game...healing outpacing damage should require taking the Healing Domain.

Healers using different spells and abilities to provide back HP!? What is this!? An MMORPG!?

Okay, sarcasm over, but this is something that a game like WoW did really well and PF2 (and D&D as a whole) could really take note of. Creating a different healing mechanic or focus or "style" for each of the classes would be an outstanding upgrade to the current mechanic of "Can this class get the Cure spells (PF1) or the Heal spell (PF2)?"

The question might be what types of spells or effects would players want and what can fit easily within this system to be core?


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The details will come in Update 1.6 tomorrow but, per Friday's Twitch stream, Alchemists are getting a health specialization. Here's hoping for Bards and Druids.

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