Poll: Are you Switching to 2e?


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Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.


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Yeah, that's occurred to me, too.


blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

My guess is that they (hopefully) understand that the people who are planning on switching, whatever percentage that may be, are probably busy enough playtesting that they don't have the head space to enter the conversation right now. Those of us who, for whatever reason, have already made our decision are here giving our reasons for it.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

IMPORTANT NOTE: I accidentally (sort of) voted twice. I didn't mean to skew your results, but I voted once, closed the tab, and then I realized I didn't really look at the other results. I went back to the page and the poll had reset, so in order to see the results I had to vote again. I did not see if it counted two votes. But if people are able to skew votes (plus on Internet polls you can always take the poll on different computers and on your phone and the like and make it look like different voters), that may not be helpful to you.

I voted "both" but it's more complicated than that.

While there are certain things I like appearing in the playtest, I'm not keen on a number of other things (e.g., it feels like a collection of disparate subsystems rather than a unified game; it is badly written and I'm not sure with the same writers it will be much improved in final), so I am not super-enthused about 2e. Moreover, more and more of my fellow players in the area are getting disinterested in fantasy roleplay and are especially disinterested in 2e. (Now, I might convince them to play Starfinder, which seems to intrigue a lot of my local player group.) BUT I do plan to buy the core rulebook, and I may play in PBP games. Unless the gameplay unexpectedly wows me, I'm probably not going to buy a lot of products for it (I buy more products as a GM than as a player, and I won't GM this game), and certainly not 3rd party products, which I'm guessing is why you're asking.

I will keep playing and running P1e, at least in PBP if not in my local groups (we are more likely to play 1e or Starfinder). However, I've got a backlog of modules and APs I've never gotten around to playing so if I'm honest, buying 3rd party for 1e is unlikely too... unless there's a module that really speaks to me and looks super GM friendly prep-wise.

Of Paizo's games I am most likely to purchase from 3rd parties, they will be maaaaaaybe 1e modules and probably Starfinder stuff.


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Nopity Nope Nope Nope. Voted - not changing my homebrew to 2e - too many radical changes. EXACTLY the same reason why I never jumped from 3.5 to 4th Edition. EXACTLY.

It's also why Paizo and Pathfinder 1e (aka 3.75) was a natural and welcome progression.

Barring some radical redesign, I'm anticipating cancellation of my subscription when 1e is officially done. Then, I start looking for those publishers that will fill the void left by Paizo.

Just like Paizo filled the void left by WotC all those years ago.

May sound harsh, but there it is.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Same here. I had no idea this was going to happen. When I originally posted the question on Facebook, I was expecting enthusiasm for the new edition. Everything since has been a complete surprise to me.

So yeah, I feel bad for Paizo employees reading this and am embarrassed about the situation.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

DeathQuaker wrote:
IMPORTANT NOTE: I accidentally (sort of) voted twice. I didn't mean to skew your results, but I voted once, closed the tab, and then I realized I didn't really look at the other results. I went back to the page and the poll had reset, so in order to see the results I had to vote again.

There's a "view results" button at the bottom.


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blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Paizo's success was built on people not wanting a radical edition change. Presenting those same people a radical edition change and expecting a different result than last time? yeah, that was not gonna happen and that should have been clear from the start.

Maybe they will learn something useful from this, but probably not.
I think, what I am trying to say is: they dug that specific hole themselves and should have known better from their own history. my sypmathy for their situation has limits


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hythlodeus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Paizo's success was built on people not wanting a radical edition change. Presenting those same people a radical edition change and expecting a different result than last time? yeah, that was not gonna happen and that should have been clear from the start.

Maybe they will learn something useful from this, but probably not.
I think, what I am trying to say is: they dug that specific hole themselves and should have known better from their own history. my sypmathy for their situation has limits

I don't think that we need to feel sorry for Paizo. I'm not going to play Pathfinder 2 (or "Otherfinder", as someone called it), but I think that a lot of people are - I've no idea how popular it is.

I liked 3.5 and Pathfinder was an improvement. I'd hoped that P2 would be a tweaked Pathfinder version, but this new game is too different for my taste. The good thing is that I can play Pathfinder, Mutants & Masterminds, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, Mouseguard and so on for the rest of my life - nobody is taking anything away from me, or you:-)

Good Gaming!


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Same here. I had no idea this was going to happen. When I originally posted the question on Facebook, I was expecting enthusiasm for the new edition. Everything since has been a complete surprise to me.

So yeah, I feel bad for Paizo employees reading this and am embarrassed about the situation.

I don't think there is any need to be embarrassed by anything. And remember it's usually the ones who are displeased are more likely to post about something. I'm sure there are a lot of people with positive reviews of the game. They just generally choose to remain silent.


Readerbreeder wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.
My guess is that they (hopefully) understand that the people who are planning on switching, whatever percentage that may be, are probably busy enough playtesting that they don't have the head space to enter the conversation right now. Those of us who, for whatever reason, have already made our decision are here giving our reasons for it.

That is certainly possible. In any case, the proof will be in the pudding once New 'n' Pathy! is finally released for reals and sales figures come in. Regardless of my opinion toward the new edition, I hope it does really well. Maybe I'll even like it. Who knows?


Well, if the playtest was the final game they might be in trouble, but as stated earlier in the thread, we just can't judge until the final version is out.

Not that they would say otherwise, but if the playtest truly has been as informative and helpful as staffers have indicated, then maybe there's hope.

(Although, I have not been interested in the PF2 direction at all so far.)


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blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Eh, it's probably a tough spot to be in right now. If this was just an edition I didn't like I would feel bad too. But for me it's more than that. It's about the perpetual locking of threads on the 2E messageboard. It's about the sensitivity training manual in the playtest document. In my opinion Paizo has taken on an eerily authoritarian aspect.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zolanoteph wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.
Eh, it's probably a tough spot to be in right now. If this was just an edition I didn't like I would feel bad too. But for me it's more than that. It's about the perpetual locking of threads on the 2E messageboard. It's about the sensitivity training manual in the playtest document. In my opinion Paizo has taken on an eerily authoritarian aspect.

Wow.


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Zolanoteph wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Yeesh, I feel kinda bad for any Paizo employees reading this thread/checking that poll.

Eh, it's probably a tough spot to be in right now. If this was just an edition I didn't like I would feel bad too. But for me it's more than that. It's about the perpetual locking of threads on the 2E messageboard. It's about the sensitivity training manual in the playtest document. In my opinion Paizo has taken on an eerily authoritarian aspect.

I don't disagree with him on the thread locks - my sense two weeks ago was things are a bit more heavy-handed these days, too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm playing in a PF Playtest group that isn't my regular group. Honestly... while we like some aspects of the Playtest (e.g.the new action economy), we have not been particularly thrilled with it. Echoing what others have said, the Playtest Edition feels like a collection of wonky sub-systems that just don't gel into a unified game.

We also came to the conclusion that 5e seems to do a better job of what the PF Playtest is trying to do.

(Note: my regular group prefers rules-light systems like Fate and the "Powered by the Apocalypse" games such as Dungeon World. We switch off GMs and play different campaigns... mine is a DW sandbox game set in Varisia, and I often convert PF modules and PFS scenarios into DW as needed.)

I am still holding out hope that the actual Pathfinder Second Edition will be a fun game that still appeals to PF players.

And I still love the Golarion campaign world. Evenn if the final PF2e isn't to my liking, I expect to continue to buy campaign setting material (and probably APs) to convert for use in other rulesets.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I don't feel bad for Paizo employees at all.

They are being paid full time salaries to work in a field and on a product they love.

They are making the 2E they want.

It's not what I want, so I'm not buying it, and I'll point out why I don't want it, but they did the math and decided it was better for business to alienate and lose me as a customer, than to continue down the path that keeping PF1 for another 2 or 5 years would represent.

I can tip my hat to them, and keep buying the miniatures and playing PF1 or other games that appeal to me.


I already wasn't buying Paizo stuff: 3rd-parties produce all the new Pathfinder 1e content I want already.


The poll won't change the fact that they're moving to 2nd edition. Companies are all about making as much profit as humanly possible, while others live off of the table scraps.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

Removed an unhelpful & sarcastic response and replies.


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Voted, closest as I could. I'm totally switching to PF2, planning to do so before the final CRB even releases. However I do have two ongoing campaigns I GM that my friends and I will be finishing out in PF1, mainly because it would take a stupidly large amount of work, mostly on my part, to convert all our non-core stuff to PF2 versions and I won't even PRETEND to know PF2 well enough yet to do that. To say nothing of the litany of NPCs I'd have to redo and the fact that one of these campaigns is Mythic. XD

However, once we have finished out the stories we are embroiled in I will totally switch to PF2. It's entirely possible I will never look back either but maybe I will pick up PF1 again for some stupid crazy stuff like another Gestalt campaign. Because apparently I'm a masochist. (Seriously, DO NOT try to run a PF1 Gestalt game with 7-9 people. You'll get some bonkers stories to laugh at later but the running is a nightmare.)

To a mention that maybe a lot of people switching aren't seeing this poll, I'd like to mention this poll isn't easy for Playtesters to find. I only stumbled upon it looking through someone's recent posts list. I've been over in the Playtest section of the forums this whole time.


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Not happy with the coming change, but I'm thankful for being informed well in advance that Paizo would be switching product focus. Even allowing others to help form, or mold what it will eventually become (at least to some degree). Good luck with your endeavors Paizo!


Well, poll closed on the 9th. The results are, um, interesting.

Looking forward to Dale’s take on the poll results.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Dracovar wrote:
Looking forward to Dale’s take on the poll results.

Ask and you shall receive. My thoughts on the switching to 2e poll.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Dracovar wrote:
Looking forward to Dale’s take on the poll results.
Ask and you shall receive. My thoughts on the switching to 2e poll.

Interesting.

Small bit of feedback. As a consumer, where I'd say I'm at currently is depressed. At this point it looks like PF1 is staying at my tables for a long while. That said, I can't say I'm excited by new PF1 products because intellectually I know the system is dead as far as it's primary producer is concerned. I've got stuff I've thought about buying, but I keep coming back to "why bother?" My emotional response to the intellectual knowledge is purchasing paralysis.

It's not about "I have enough material to last me a lifetime." A very small part of it is "what if Paizo pulls a magic rabit out of their hat and somehow the release of PF2 actually appeals to us?" But mostly it's knowing the system has been issued a death sentence. Yeah, yeah, I get it there are four or five people still playing 1st edition/AD&D/3.x/4e. But in terms of serious new-interesting-product availability, the future is bleak. One or two 3rd-party modules a year don't excite me.

The days of new, exciting innovations like Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, Akashic Mysteries, Spheres, and amazing massive books like Slumbering Tsar or Sandy Petersen's Mythos are... gone. No more Ultimate Intrigue, no more Occult magic, no more unchained anything. No new, intricate things with grand scale, basically. Life support isn't exactly life, I guess.

So... I don't know what happens to my dollars moving forward. I just know that where I'm at sucks.


Anguish wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Dracovar wrote:
Looking forward to Dale’s take on the poll results.
Ask and you shall receive. My thoughts on the switching to 2e poll.

Interesting.

Small bit of feedback. As a consumer, where I'd say I'm at currently is depressed. At this point it looks like PF1 is staying at my tables for a long while. That said, I can't say I'm excited by new PF1 products because intellectually I know the system is dead as far as it's primary producer is concerned. I've got stuff I've thought about buying, but I keep coming back to "why bother?" My emotional response to the intellectual knowledge is purchasing paralysis.

It's not about "I have enough material to last me a lifetime." A very small part of it is "what if Paizo pulls a magic rabit out of their hat and somehow the release of PF2 actually appeals to us?" But mostly it's knowing the system has been issued a death sentence. Yeah, yeah, I get it there are four or five people still playing 1st edition/AD&D/3.x/4e. But in terms of serious new-interesting-product availability, the future is bleak. One or two 3rd-party modules a year don't excite me.

The days of new, exciting innovations like Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, Akashic Mysteries, Spheres, and amazing massive books like Slumbering Tsar or Sandy Petersen's Mythos are... gone. No more Ultimate Intrigue, no more Occult magic, no more unchained anything. No new, intricate things with grand scale, basically. Life support isn't exactly life, I guess.

So... I don't know what happens to my dollars moving forward. I just know that where I'm at sucks.

My sense of deja vu is off the charts - I'm of similar mind/feelings about it.

However, until the final product actually is in print - I'm going to chill out and enjoy Return of the RL's (and whatever comes next).

It's too early to start in on 9 months of angst and depression, waiting for the shoe to drop. Maybe the new shoe will be polished up and quite comfy compared to the one that is being tested. We'll know when we'll know. If it's not? Well, August 2019 might be kind of a downer...


Anguish wrote:
The days of new, exciting innovations like Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, Akashic Mysteries, Spheres, and amazing massive books like Slumbering Tsar or Sandy Petersen's Mythos are... gone. No more Ultimate Intrigue, no more Occult magic, no more unchained anything. No new, intricate things with grand scale, basically. Life support isn't exactly life, I guess.

If that happens I may just start ignoring Pathfinder the way I've done D&D. I'm not sure it's really my system, but I like the 3rd-party experimental bits. If those stop I might go entirely over to a new system.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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Anguish wrote:

But in terms of serious new-interesting-product availability, the future is bleak. One or two 3rd-party modules a year don't excite me.

The days of new, exciting innovations like Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, Akashic Mysteries, Spheres, and amazing massive books like Slumbering Tsar or Sandy Petersen's Mythos are... gone. No more Ultimate Intrigue, no more Occult magic, no more unchained anything. No new, intricate things with grand scale, basically. Life support isn't exactly life, I guess.

So... I don't know what happens to my dollars moving forward. I just know that where I'm at sucks.

I can't speak for anyone else, but Legendary Games has always maintained that we'll keep making PF1 content as long as people keep buying PF1 content, and we've no shortage of new releases planned.

We just released our latest expansion for kingdom-building and mass combat that *also* bridges the gap with downtime construction *and* has a ton of stuff for regular PC/party-level adventuring in Ultimate Strongholds, not to mention huge recent releases for PF1 like the 500-page Pirate Campaign Compendium!

Speaking of Slumbering Tsar, I just this morning received two more developed adventures for Greg Vaughan's massive Ashes of Empire Adventure Path that we announced last year at PaizoCon. Three of the six adventures are now in the can, with the another with Greg in development and two more approaching done-ness on the writing side. We'll start ordering art and maps soon and be ready to launch this in the spring for PF1 and 5E, with a PF2 version coming once that game releases at GenCon!


Companies who want to support both could always dual-stat them. (I know it means less space for other stuff, but if I really need Pathfinder 1e stuff I'm willing to put up with that.)


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SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Companies who want to support both could always dual-stat them. (I know it means less space for other stuff, but if I really need Pathfinder 1e stuff I'm willing to put up with that.)

A lot of the 3rd party stuff I've started picking up is available for Pathfinder, 5th edition and S&W. And I don't mean multiple sets of stat blocks in one book. I mean separate printings, one for each system.

If a small company can triple stat 500 - 1000 page books, there is little reason a publisher the size of Paizo could not stat for both PF1 and PF2.


Jason Nelson wrote:
...Greg Vaughan's massive Ashes of Empire Adventure Path...

Oooohh, shiny!

So, spring is the ballpark date for releasing this? Looking forward to it!


Since I Was not at PaizoCon - please provide more info on the Ashes of Empire AP!

Physical or PDF only?

Page count?

Levels?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I too would like more info on Ashes of Empire. Missed the poll, but I'm still in the wait and see phase at the moment. (The fact I get everything digital for volunteering makes it fairly irrelevant as well.)

Paizo Employee

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Volkard Abendroth wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Companies who want to support both could always dual-stat them. (I know it means less space for other stuff, but if I really need Pathfinder 1e stuff I'm willing to put up with that.)

A lot of the 3rd party stuff I've started picking up is available for Pathfinder, 5th edition and S&W. And I don't mean multiple sets of stat blocks in one book. I mean separate printings, one for each system.

If a small company can triple stat 500 - 1000 page books, there is little reason a publisher the size of Paizo could not stat for both PF1 and PF2.

That's really not how it works. Smaller publishing companies very frequently have "softer" release dates and less aggressive publishing schedules than a company the size of Paizo, as well as fewer full time staff members. This means that they can do things like fund books through Kickstarter and live off the proceeds from a successful fundraiser while they complete their obligations and they generally don't need to worry about managing or storing inventory (or at least not to the same degree as a larger publishing company).

Larger publishing companies need to hit fixed release dates so that they have a proper churn of inventory and income to pay the bills (including their employees), as well as maintain their presence on store shelves with fresh product. There's very little correlation between what kinds of business models work for a small 3pp company that might only have one or two "full-time" employees (who frequently work another day job) and what kinds work for a larger company that needs to manage a warehouse and pay numerous full-time employees.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think thats the dragon Ap? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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DaveMage wrote:

Since I Was not at PaizoCon - please provide more info on the Ashes of Empire AP!

Physical or PDF only?

Page count?

Levels?

Your wish is my command!

Check out the latest on the Legendary Games blog!

But in shorthand answers:

1. Print and PDF
2. Page count: LOTS
3. Levels: ALL OF THEM

(Seriously, we won't have precise answers to the above until layout is done, but it'll go from first until at least the high teens level-wise, and word count is well over 200,000 already and climbing, so it'll be at minimum 400 pages altogether, maybe much more.)

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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Kevin Mack wrote:
I think thats the dragon Ap? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is addressed in the blog post, but to copy it here this is not the previously announced Conquest: Rage of Wyrms dragon-focused AP that we first talked about the previous year.

The announcement of Pathfinder 2nd Edition made us rethink some things around our scheduling for a big adventure project, and around the same time both Robert Brookes and Jason Nelson got very busy with other work, to the point that they couldn’t devote the attention to pushing this one through as originally planned. Coincidentally, it was not long after that Greg, one of the founding members of Legendary Games, stepped up with a perfect alternative! In business you have to be flexible with plans and resources to make everything come together, and we are excited to bring Ashes of Empires to your table.

At the same time, we are still passionate about the project, but we just have to find the time to bring the right resources to bear to make it happen. It won’t be in 2019, but hopefully we can get it rolling in time to release in 2020! The dragons are waiting!!!


Ssalarn wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Companies who want to support both could always dual-stat them. (I know it means less space for other stuff, but if I really need Pathfinder 1e stuff I'm willing to put up with that.)

A lot of the 3rd party stuff I've started picking up is available for Pathfinder, 5th edition and S&W. And I don't mean multiple sets of stat blocks in one book. I mean separate printings, one for each system.

If a small company can triple stat 500 - 1000 page books, there is little reason a publisher the size of Paizo could not stat for both PF1 and PF2.

That's really not how it works. Smaller publishing companies very frequently have "softer" release dates and less aggressive publishing schedules than a company the size of Paizo, as well as fewer full time staff members. This means that they can do things like fund books through Kickstarter and live off the proceeds from a successful fundraiser while they complete their obligations and they generally don't need to worry about managing or storing inventory (or at least not to the same degree as a larger publishing company).

Larger publishing companies need to hit fixed release dates so that they have a proper churn of inventory and income to pay the bills (including their employees), as well as maintain their presence on store shelves with fresh product. There's very little correlation between what kinds of business models work for a small 3pp company that might only have one or two "full-time" employees (who frequently work another day job) and what kinds work for a larger company that needs to manage a warehouse and pay numerous full-time employees.

Right

Because having a smaller staff and fewer resources makes it much easier to provide multiple versions of the same product.

I can totally understand how larger and better funded companies are totally unable to compete with smaller publishers.

Guess which company will get my money.

Shadow Lodge

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When that product is the only thing they're working on at the moment? Yes.

When you have 15 products working at once? No.

But maybe one of our 3PP will clarify things for us.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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TOZ wrote:

When that product is the only thing they're working on at the moment? Yes.

When you have 15 products working at once? No.

But maybe one of our 3PP will clarify things for us.

There are definitely big differences in how easy a thing is for a larger company vs. a smaller company to do. I believe the buzzword a few years ago was "nimble" or "agile" or something like that. The fluidity of a smaller company's release schedule and the way it interacts with its various contributors can make it easier to do various things even if a larger company has more total staff.

Some of that is due to having fewer people needed to check and sign off on things. In a one-person shop, once a thing is done it's DONE. A bigger company might have multiple review phases for different stakeholders that own different parts of a project.

Some of it is also due to the scale of what's useful to spend time doing in the larger scope of the company. For a typical 3PP, a product that sells, say, 200 copies is probably a success. For a company with 80+ employees that's an unmitigated disaster. Smaller companies can afford to attend to a niche of a niche in ways a larger company can't.

Some of it has to do with institutional focus. If you want to maintain the highest possible quality, ideally you want everyone rowing in the same direction using the same set of rules. If people are having to code-switch between different system sets, that might well lead to a higher incidence of errors and "edition leakage" creeping through.

Some of it, of course, is that different rulesets are likely to be different in more than just the stat blocks. The underlying assumptions of the rules may be radically different in some ways, which leads to more than just having to swap some stats to make products that achieve the same general end-state for their destination system. Books might increase 50% or more in length, and that adds up fast when it comes to printing costs (and weight for shipping, for that matter).

3PPs also have more incentive to cross-pollinate their products to multiple other systems, whereas a company promoting its own core system has far less incentive to create products that monetize someone else's IP rather than their own. Paizo could create OGL versions of their APs and many of their other products with 5E stats if they wanted to, and they'd probably sell a fair number of them, but they'd feel like it was sending money to their direct competitor and also create an unfavorable optic (in at least some people's minds, perhaps more importantly with distributors than end-user fans) of not having complete faith in their own core product to sell itself and trying to bolt it onto someone else's engine.

Even with 3PPs, the general understanding I've acquired is that multi-stat products tend to sell less well than dedicated alt-system products. If there are quirks of licensing, that makes it easier as well (and this would be doubly true if Paizo were to release something with PF1 and PF2 material in it, as to what would be covered by the existing PF Compatibility License and what would go under the presumptive future PF2 Comp. License). But long story short, customers *feel* like they're "paying for content I'll never use" and complain about it when there are alt stats in the book. It may seem silly, but it happens.

All of the above, of course, are generalities of some of the challenges a publisher faces in deciding what to do. Whether you think that all adds up to it being a good or bad idea for Paizo to publish dual-stat products for PF1 and PF2 is up to you.


Jason Nelson wrote:
DaveMage wrote:

Since I Was not at PaizoCon - please provide more info on the Ashes of Empire AP!

Physical or PDF only?

Page count?

Levels?

Your wish is my command!

Check out the latest on the Legendary Games blog!

But in shorthand answers:

1. Print and PDF
2. Page count: LOTS
3. Levels: ALL OF THEM

(Seriously, we won't have precise answers to the above until layout is done, but it'll go from first until at least the high teens level-wise, and word count is well over 200,000 already and climbing, so it'll be at minimum 400 pages altogether, maybe much more.)

Sweet! Now if FGG would get around to actually publishing the Lost Lands Campaign Setting, awesomeness would be upon us.


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DaveMage wrote:
Now if FGG would get around to actually publishing the Lost Lands Campaign Setting, awesomeness would be upon us.

I would love to see this as well, but my fear is that with the epic way FGG does everything, it will be a total of 6.000 pages, published in four volumes, and cost 450 bucks... and I will still have to have it, and go without snacks for a year (or some such) to save for it.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Right

Because having a smaller staff and fewer resources makes it much easier to provide multiple versions of the same product.

I can totally understand how larger and better funded companies are totally unable to compete with smaller publishers.

Guess which company will get my money.

Way to disregard the take-home.

Ssalarn was very clear that the main issue is deadlines. Which Paizo almost always meets and must meet. Third party publishers - such as Legendary Games - can and do miss release dates. Without criticism intended, they do so time and time again. Sometimes by years.

When a contacted writer fails to turn over their work on time, Paizo has the resources - just - to scramble and get it written by someone else. (At least I assume this... I've never heard of an adventure path module changing authors because of this.) Having to scramble like that with two or three sets of statblocks? Not cool. Whereas a third party publisher just slides the deadline by a half-year and assigns the project to someone else.

Point is that it's not mostly the manpower. It's the inflexibility of paying the bills, because while third party publishers usually have day-jobs, Paizo employees... do too... at Paizo.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anguish wrote:
(At least I assume this... I've never heard of an adventure path module changing authors because of this.)

Oh, that happened a few times. City of Seven Spears from Serpent's Skull is the most famous example, where the original author delivered a late semi-completed draft of which only a part was serviceable. Paizo ended up scrambling James and Rob to salvage the adventure and finish it before the deadline.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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Gorbacz wrote:
Anguish wrote:
(At least I assume this... I've never heard of an adventure path module changing authors because of this.)
Oh, that happened a few times. City of Seven Spears from Serpent's Skull is the most famous example, where the original author delivered a late semi-completed draft of which only a part was serviceable. Paizo ended up scrambling James and Rob to salvage the adventure and finish it before the deadline.

It does happen, and for lots of reasons. Sometimes a piece of writing or art just doesn't work and has to be replaced or redone, like with the above example.

Sometimes work just doesn't get done AT ALL. I ended up writing over 50,000 words of the Advanced Player's Guide, and of that total somewhere around 10-12,000 was a one-weekend blitz to do work that had been assigned elsewhere but the original assigned author(s) never turned in and that didn't become apparent until the last minute.

Sometimes conflicting imperatives happen too. An author may turn in a piece of work that ends up getting discarded in favor of a different version of the same concepts. Maybe something else in the book ended up going a different direction and now the first piece no longer worked, or priorities shifted during development, or writing ended up conflicting in some way with art or maps (which, generally speaking, are usually much more expensive than words).

In some cases (like the APG example above), those emergency bail-out writing assignments get farmed out to a trusted freelancer. More often, someone on staff gets tasked with doing the fill-in work, which might be in place of but I'd guess is more likely in addition to their usual duties.

A company with a bigger staff has a deeper bullpen available to them in case of emergency, as well as a stronger necessity (such as meeting advance orders from distributors that their sales team has already arranged months in advance), to keep to a fixed schedule.

A smaller company, even if any of the people involved are doing it full-time, has more operational limitations but also gets more slack from customers because of those limitations. The expectations are different. As long as a small company keeps working, communicating, and showing evidence of doing its best, they're probably in an okay place as far as customer goodwill. A bigger company is a bigger target, and less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.


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Jason Nelson wrote:
DaveMage wrote:

Since I Was not at PaizoCon - please provide more info on the Ashes of Empire AP!

Physical or PDF only?

Page count?

Levels?

Your wish is my command!

Check out the latest on the Legendary Games blog!

But in shorthand answers:

1. Print and PDF
2. Page count: LOTS
3. Levels: ALL OF THEM

(Seriously, we won't have precise answers to the above until layout is done, but it'll go from first until at least the high teens level-wise, and word count is well over 200,000 already and climbing, so it'll be at minimum 400 pages altogether, maybe much more.)

It is set in the Lost Lands! and I had not heard about this AP until now. The blog didn't mention when the first volume launch? Was it a KickStarter or simply a product we can order when it's released? Also is's not the subject of this thread but still quite of interest, Jason, if you open a new thread in 3pp sub I think I'm not the only one interested and some like me may have this Under the radar and missed it

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