What would be a good way for an Iroran Paladin with very few feats, low strength and dexterity to stay relevant in combat WITHOUT dipping into other classes?
Not looking to be the best, just reliably ok.
Do you at least have okay-ish charisma?
Pick up Oath of Vengeance and rely on your Smite Evil.
Buy a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone for 1,500 gp and gain proficiency with the Battle Poi if you want to use TWF.
Dabble in alchemy and craft Flame Fountains to hit touch AC while smiting.
***
So Flame fountain in one hand, Battle Poi in the other, TWF-ing and smiting.
With Str 12 at level 6, you'd have the following attack routine while Smiting:
Flame Fountain +5/+0 (1d8+6) vs Touch, MWK Battle Poi +6 (1d4+6)
Add Charisma to Hit.
Wonderstell wrote: Do you at least have okay-ish charisma?
Pick up Oath of Vengeance and rely on your Smite Evil.
Buy a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone for 1,500 gp and gain proficiency with the Battle Poi if you want to use TWF.
Dabble in alchemy and craft Flame Fountains to hit touch AC while smiting.
***
So Flame fountain in one hand, Battle Poi in the other, TWF-ing and smiting.
With Str 12 at level 6, you'd have the following attack routine while Smiting:
Flame Fountain +5/+0 (1d8+6) vs Touch, MWK Battle Poi +6 (1d4+6)
Add Charisma to Hit.
They dont get smite evil and also cant take oath of vengeance.
Got anything else that I could gain access to thats charisma based or decently good damage potential without relying on stats or lots of feats?
Goblin Warlord wrote: They dont get smite evil and also cant take oath of vengeance.
Got anything else that I could gain access to thats charisma based or decently good damage potential without relying on stats or lots of feats?
Ah. Yeah the archetype didn't show on the SRD (since they're not allowed to use the name of gods), so I thought you meant you were a paladin worshipping Irori.
Losing Smite Evil is crippling your ability to deal damage, since the archetype itself is dependent on having high ability scores.
How did you end up with low Str and Dex on a martial character?
Also, how low stats are we talking about here? If your Str is around 14 then just choose a weapon with big damage dice and don't use power attack until you've got the gear.
***
Tactic #2:
Use a reach weapon with high dmg dice, while relying on your Unarmed Strikes to threaten within 5 ft.
The Lucerne Hammer is a martial weapon with Reach, Brace and 1d12 dmg dice.
Probably your best bet.
If you take the Rough and Ready trait, while choosing a profession like Sellsword, Guard or Gladiator, you could probably gain another +1 to attack. Which would help you in the early levels when you'll be behind the curve.
Anybody with a good UMD can stay combat relevant. Mammoth Lance once you can afford it.
High damage, "low" stats, few feats. There are very few options here, dependent on what your actual Str and Dex numbers are, without dipping into another class. Let's look at what you have first:
Unarmed Strike: you get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at level 1 and you deal damage as a monk half your paladin level. This isn't much but it's an added damage source and means you'll always be able to take AoO's
Personal Trial: in place of Smite Evil at level 1 you can declare any one foe your "trial" for a +1 Insight bonus to Attack/Damage rolls against them, to your AC against the "Trial" and to saves. The bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter; you get 1/day at level 1, another at level 4, and gain another use of this ability/day every 4 levels thereafter as well.
Ki Pool: at 4th level you get a ki pool with your paladin level serving as your monk level. You get the normal monk ki pool stuff with a number of points = to 1/2 level + Cha mod and you can also spend 1 during a Trial to ignore your "trial's" DR for 1 round but you lose channel positive energy.
Divine Bond: at level 5 you have to form a bond to a weapon, though you could choose unarmed strike.
You've also got several defensive abilities from both the archetype and base paladin, but these don't factor into your damage. One of these depends on not wielding a shield however so you shouldn't go sword-and-board for the build.
Assuming a non-human you begin the game with 2 feats; 1 at level 1, Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. At Medium as a level 1 paladin you deal 1d6 with an unarmed strike; even by level 20 you'll only ever deal 1d10. Again, this isn't the biggest source of damage but it is a decent backup.
With a 12 or better Str you've got a bonus of +2 to hit at level 1, with this increasing by +1 for every extra increase you can get out of that stat. Similarly with Dex when attacking with Ranged weapons.
You're prioritizing Cha, so perhaps the Divine Fighting feat where you add Cha to attack/Damage to using the Starknife could work. If not, then you could focus on Dex as your next stat and take Point Blank Shot, then Precise shot at level 3 and so on. You'd never be doing TONS of damage but you could still build a halfway decent archer paladin with the baseline 10 feats and keeping to Wealth by Level.
Once you get to 4th level and your Ki Pool though, you have a different set of circumstances. You can't flurry, so you don't get the extra attack, but you can ignore all DR on a foe you've got your Trial against. If you wield a Kusari Gama and are allowed access to the Ki Diversity feat you can deal your unarmed damage when making a Trip or Disarm maneuver, or sub your Wis bonus for Str or Dex on all melee or ranged attacks in a round. If you're a Gnome instead of a Medium non-human you could take the Bewildering Koan feat and add +2 damage or rob your enemies of their actions.
Finally, by spending the 2 feats to get a familiar, then another feat to give it +8 on Use Magic Device, you could buy a bunch of cheap buff spells in wands or on scrolls and have the familiar constantly pump you up. Its a feat-intensive chain that doesn't pay off until at least around level 7 but in the right combination by that level you can have some scrolls with between CL 1-3 laying around that your familiar has a good chance of getting on you every round. Entering a fight with an extra +1 attack/damage hits at what you're looking for.
I'd still like to know more about the character though to see what we're working with, and what you think would be "reliably ok" for attack and damage. At 10th level for example the average CR 10 monster per the monster creation rules has an AC of 24 and 130 HP. Consequently being a full BAB class your paladin is already +10 to hit and with your unarmed strike at 1d8 you're full attacking for +10/+5 (1d8) with an average damage of 9 if you hit both times.
Figuring standard WBL by that time, plus perhaps a baseline 13 in your Str and Dex, if you focused SOLELY on your unarmed strikes, you'd likely have at least an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, a belt to improve Str by +2, Deliquescent Gloves and the feats Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike by level 10. This makes your attacks +12/+12/+7 (1d8 +3 plus 1d6 Acid). Barring any Resist Acid, your foe is taking an average of 33 damage on three successful hits.
At 130 HP and an average party of 4 adventurers, you're responsible for dealing 32.5 damage towards ending a fight. You accomplish that over the course of 3 rounds or less with over a 50% hit accuracy, based on just these choices alone, if you forgo your Two Weapon Fighting penalty.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: You're prioritizing Cha, so perhaps the Divine Fighting feat where you add Cha to attack/Damage to using the Starknife could work. Unfortunately, that would require the lawful paladin of Irori to worship the chaotic deity Desna.
Thanks for the long post, ive soaked it all in and will consider my options.
I havnt yet made the character, I was mostly curious to see if i dropped everything but charisma i could still make it relatively decent. The lack of feats is because I was considering taking things to improve lay on hands and give other utility and realised I had very few left. I'll probably just not dump strength if its a hassle to work around.
(and yes if I could i'd have jumped at the divine fighting technique)
Goblin Warlord wrote: Thanks for the long post, ive soaked it all in and will consider my options.
I havnt yet made the character, I was mostly curious to see if i dropped everything but charisma i could still make it relatively decent. The lack of feats is because I was considering taking things to improve lay on hands and give other utility and realised I had very few left. I'll probably just not dump strength if its a hassle to work around.
(and yes if I could i'd have jumped at the divine fighting technique)
what is it about the archetype that you are specifically looking for? Could you just be a non-archetype iroran Paladin?
Lelomenia wrote: what is it about the archetype that you are specifically looking for? Could you just be a non-archetype iroran Paladin? Wanted something that could just outright ignore spellcasters by having both crazy high saves and high touch AC while being able to quickly heal off any damage. Seemed like a good fit.
Still being able to mini-smite neutral or good foes and being able to make my own code was also a bonus.
I was thinking more about my suggestion of using a familiar. At level 1 take a half-elf or a human with a 13 Str, then take the feats Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) and Eldritch Heritage. At level 1 you start with a Thrush familiar from the Arcana bloodline and it trades out it's starting feat for Extra Traits: Pragmatic Activator and Underlying Principles.
At level 1 your familiar only has a +3 UMD, so no great benefit there for all your work. However you get the normal benefits of having a bird familiar that can talk and knows things, complete with a +3 on Diplomacy checks. You also begin the game with an unarmed strike +2 (1d6+1) or a greatsword +2 (2d6+1). No great shakes on your attack bonus but you're hitting the average CR 1 monster (avg AC 12) about half the time and doing more than enough damage to positively contribute.
Now you fall down on damage and bonus to hit at level 2, unless you get a masterwork greatsword. By level 3 you're struggling to hit half the time even with a masterwork, but by level 3 you take the feat Evolved Familiar: Skilled (Use Magic Device). At this point your thrush familiar has a baseline +14 UMD skill. On a 6 or better, or roughly 3 out of every 4 attempts, it is activating a wand.
Spend 750, pick up a wand of (insert +1 attack/damage bonus spell here). Personally I favor Divine Favor but Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, etc would work just fine. If you have any WBL left over, pick up some cheap scrolls; better if your party's arcane caster can make them. At a CL1, your familiar can read a scroll successfully with a 7 or better on their UMD roll. Of course if your GM rules your familiar can't actually wield these devices in their talons, all of this is moot; check with your GM before this build.
Based on all the above, after 2 successful buff rounds, the level 3 paladin could have Divine Favor AND Magic Fang running. Their punch alone is unarmed strike +6 (1d6+3). With the average CR3 monster at a 15 AC and 30 HP, each PC is required to deliver about 7.5 damage to it's defeat. Your paladin, if these buffs are successful, delivers 6.5 damage just with a punch on over half their attacks.
By level 5 your PC should have a +1 greatsword and Weapon Focus: Greatsword. They should also have a wand of Bull's Strength; more expensive than a belt but greater benefit. Your familiar, if they can use wands, successfully buffs you with a Wand of Bull's strength on a roll of 3 or better, since their UMD at this point is a +17. If you've also taken your level 4 stat increase to raise your starting strength from 13 to 14 you've got a +1 greatsword +11 (2d6+6). Your average attack hits a CR5 monster's avg 18 AC well over half the time and you're dealing an average of 13 damage in a hit at a time when you need to be delivering 13.75 to positively contribute to the end of the fight.
After this level, feats and consumables can be used to keep the paladin buffed up for delivering "reliably ok" accuracy and damage. Your familiar will only continue to increase their UMD so that, 95% of the time you're entering the fray with at least one buff spell. If you also keep up with WBL your baseline attacks will keep pace with the average AC and HP on the Monster Creation chart, at least through about level 10.
By level 10 you've got 3 uses/day of your Trial ability which adds a +3 attack/damage bonus to all of your attacks. With a wand of Bull's Strength, a wand of Enlarge Person, the feats Power Attack, Furious Focus and Weapon Focus: Greatsword, your Trial running, and a +1 Corrosive greatsword, you've got a full attack of +19/+11 (3d6+19 plus 1d6 Acid). 3 CR10 monsters/day in a full attack with you may be taking between 33 to 66 damage in that round.
After that level though you're going to have to invest serious WBL in expensive items and consumables. Luckily by level 10 your familiar has a +24 UMD skill, before adding any magic items or abilities that might pump that higher. On a 2 or better on a d20 your humble thrush can use scrolls of CL6 or lower. It can read Haste or Bull's Strength or you could risk the chance of failure and have it read a CL7 Heroism scroll. Remember that if you're giving yourself Morale bonuses, it might be handy to keep some cheap scrolls of Moment of Greatness around to give them a quick doubling for a round, especially if you're using your Trial ability.
So with a 20 pt buy at level 1 a half-elf Iroran Paladin begins in Breastplate armor with Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 18 (16 +2 Racial). They start with an AC of 17, Touch of 13, saves of Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +2 and 12 HP. For feats he's got Racial Bonus/Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana); Level 1/Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline); Level 1 Bonus/Improved Unarmed Strike. He has a BAB +1, carries a sling for sling +3 (1d4+1), a greatsword for greatsword +2 (2d6+1) and as his ace in the hole he's got unarmed +2 (1d6+1). Finally, the paladin travels around with a know-it-all thrush that seems to know an AWFUL lot about magic and magic devices.
For a lot of level 1 use your sling as much as your sword, maybe more. If someone can swing it, have a member of the party cast Magic Stone for you once in a while. Level 2, upgrade your bullets and sword to masterworks; get a cloak of resistance +1. Level 3 take the feat Evolved Familiar: Skilled (Use Magic Device); the know-it-all bird is now even smarter; upgrade your breastplate to +1 and consider getting a wand of divine favor; the bird can activate the wand on an 8 or better.
Level 4 take your stat increase on Str and upgrade your sling to a masterwork compound bow (+2 str bonus); add +1 to either it or your greatsword (see below). At level 5 pick up a ring of protection +1 for a Deflection bonus; now you begin picking a route to specialize in:
1. Take Weapon Focus: Greatsword - your bow is a backup weapon you keep around as a just in case; you are primarily attacking in melee and will continue taking feats to support this chain. Your AC is also a priority so you'll need to occasionally upgrade your Cha and Dex alongside your standard resistance/AC upgrades
2. Take Point Blank Shot - you're primarily focusing on single targets at a 30' distance, keeping your sword and unarmed strikes in reserve for when necessary. As you advance you'll need a lot of focus on increasing your ranged accuracy from feats/items which will also likely boost your AC a little and staying 30' away from the front line will help your survival; damage will come slowly as you add more and more arrows to your full attacks
3. Take a defensive feat of your choice - if you instead focus on being a tank and a switch hitter upgrade either weapon and rely heavily on your familiar for buffs. Most of your own spells and the consumables your thrush uses will be upgrades to your attacks and damage to keep you on par with the monsters AC's and HP while your AC and saves from feats, items and your own Iroran Monk abilities keep you relatively safe from harm
From level 5 on your familiar, wielding all those magic devices, can also go one of 2 ways with a baseline +17 UMD, succeeding on wands with a 3 or better, CL1 spell scrolls with a 4 or better, and so on:
1. Focus on buffing/healing you - the familiar routinely employs Divine Favor, Bull's Strength, Enlarge Person, Lead Blades/Gravity Bow, etc sharing those spells to you when needed. They also keep scrolls of cure spells and Lesser Restoration as a "break glass in case of..." type scenario. Finally they can also have defensive buffs to help you tank like Magic Vestment, Barkskin, False Life, Mirror Image, etc.
2. Focus on supplemental damage - especially helpful if you go the Point Blank Shot route above, imagine your familiar popping out with a scroll of Magic Missile/CL3? Suddenly your one comp longbow +9 (1d8+3) gets a 2d4+2 damage boost! You could also keep scrolls of Scorching Ray, wands of Snowball and so on. This puts a target on your thrush's Diminutive face but it also means that your damage remains at or above what's needed to end your fights quickly.
With this kind of build it'll be handy to have someone in the party crafting cheap consumables or at the very least make frequent stops into major settlements to purchase them/have them crafted.
With any of the build focuses above, by level 2 you've got a +4 or better on all your saves and a way to heal yourself a little; by level 4 you've got at least a +4 from your Cha to your AC that also buffs your Touch AC as well, fulfilling that part of your build requirements mentioned in this thread. Your Ki Pool can also buff that AC for a round a couple times/day. Any way you slice it this PC will be difficult for foes to hit in straight up melee or ranged combat.
Goblin Warlord wrote: Lelomenia wrote: what is it about the archetype that you are specifically looking for? Could you just be a non-archetype iroran Paladin? Wanted something that could just outright ignore spellcasters by having both crazy high saves and high touch AC while being able to quickly heal off any damage. Seemed like a good fit.
Still being able to mini-smite neutral or good foes and being able to make my own code was also a bonus. crazy high saves and quickly healing off damage come from core Paladin, so I wouldn’t count them as arguments in favor of that archetype specifically.
The archetype does give you +cha to touch AC, which is nice, but...smite evil (which you are trading to get +cha) also gives you +cha to touch AC. And is generally so amazing people forget about minor aspects of it like +cha to touch AC. Which admittedly will be inapplicable against the neutral and good aligned spellcasters your Paladin wants to murder on any given day, but I’d argue it should be considered. You are also trading your otherwise good flat-footed AC for bad flat-footed AC, which is significant as i think you should expect to be low initiative.
As in posts above, there are workarounds you can go for, but I’m just suggesting taking a second look at what you paying and what you are getting.
|
