Deafen
The target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or be deafened for 1d4 minutes.
Deafened
You can’t hear. You take a –4 penalty to initiative checks and opposed Perception checks, and you automatically fail Perception checks based on sound. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
By the time you're deafening people you've already rolled init, npcs will be deaf for the rest of their lives and it goes away. Pcs will probably be taking a 10 minute rest so.. whats this supposed to do?
In pathfinder deafening gave people chance to miscast spells, but starfinder characters don't have verbal components so that's not an issue.
You can now yell tactics and orders without the enemy hearing you?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, there's the niche case where you could be using the deafening weapon on someone who has blindsight (sound)?
You can now yell tactics and orders without the enemy hearing you?
That would be a closed com wouldn't it?
As an individual with a severe hearing disability, I can tell you it can wreak havoc with tactics and communication.
The order to retreat? Deaf guy doesn't get it and maybe sticks around longer than he should.
"Grenade out!" Deaf guy doesn't hear the warning and maybe gets blown up by friendly fire.
Every single warning or order he would have received verbally no longer reaches him.
Over roll20 or similar services this could be a very entertaining experience.
It may affect the ability of an envoy to use their envoy-improvisations on you, which can actually be a pretty big detriment if you are reliant on an envoy for stamina restoration.
It may affect the ability of an envoy to use their envoy-improvisations on you, which can actually be a pretty big detriment if you are reliant on an envoy for stamina restoration.
I thought you had something for a second..
Sense-Dependent
A sense-dependent effect has either audible or visual elements, requiring sight or hearing to have any effect. For this kind of effect to affect that target, you must be able to either see or hear the target, and the target must be able to either see or hear you.
Since we don't really have facing in this system that's a bit of a non issue.
Why does everything have to be in the system? A person fighting something in front of him isn't gonna be constantly looking over their shoulder.
Why does everything have to be in the system? A person fighting something in front of him isn't gonna be constantly looking over their shoulder.
But in Pathfinder and Starfinder he is.
Why does everything have to be in the system?
Because if you require facing in a system that doesn't have rules for it you can get very weird. In your example what happens if the enemy moves? Are you stuck still facing the wall as the bad guy goes behind you? (i have had multple people try that argument for a sneak attack or a back stab) Is it impossible to keep an eye on two people flanking you so one of them's invisible?
It brings up more issues than it solves.
A person fighting something in front of him isn't gonna be constantly looking over their shoulder.
Doesn't need to be constant, just needs to be long enough for the envoy to give you a thumbs up.
I don't think you're understanding. I'm not saying add a facing system. I'm saying use some common sense. Move away from strict rules and add some freeform stuff.
Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach. It's hard to look in all directions while engaged with an enemy and hard to hear over the noise of combat, who's to say that sense dependent Envoy abilities ever work at all?
Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach.
No. It's, "Your ability doesn't work because the guy you're trying to use it on is currently in a vicious firefight and is deafened, so isn't paying attention to you."
Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach.No. It's, "Your ability doesn't work because the guy you're trying to use it on is currently in a vicious firefight and is deafened, so isn't paying attention to you."
Did the player say he wasn't paying attention? I'd think that if he has an Envoy ally and he's lost his sense of hearing he'll be looking around even more than often to make sure no one is sneaking up on him and his allies haven't retreated behind his back.
Did the player say he wasn't paying attention? I'd think that if he has an Envoy ally and he's lost his sense of hearing he'll be looking around even more than often to make sure no one is sneaking up on him and his allies haven't retreated behind his back.Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach.No. It's, "Your ability doesn't work because the guy you're trying to use it on is currently in a vicious firefight and is deafened, so isn't paying attention to you."
Why not have the Envoy tap him on the shoulder and give him the thumbs up?
Oh, right. Tapping people on the shoulder isn't part of the rules. Or is a Called Shot, unarmed.
My point is, during a combat situation, someone fighting is going to have better things to do than looking around like a lost puppy at their team mates. Namely, they are gonna be shooting the enemy and avoid being shot by the enemy.
Did the player say he wasn't paying attention? I'd think that if he has an Envoy ally and he's lost his sense of hearing he'll be looking around even more than often to make sure no one is sneaking up on him and his allies haven't retreated behind his back.Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach.No. It's, "Your ability doesn't work because the guy you're trying to use it on is currently in a vicious firefight and is deafened, so isn't paying attention to you."Why not have the Envoy tap him on the shoulder and give him the thumbs up?
Oh, right. Tapping people on the shoulder isn't part of the rules. Or is a Called Shot, unarmed.
My point is, during a combat situation, someone fighting is going to have better things to do than looking around like a lost puppy at their team mates. Namely, they are gonna be shooting the enemy and avoid being shot by the enemy.
Yes, looking in all directions to see if any enemies are approaching or attacking you is clearly not something you'd do in that situation. Good point.
Yes, looking in all directions to see if any enemies are approaching or attacking you is clearly not something you'd do in that situation. Good point.Did the player say he wasn't paying attention? I'd think that if he has an Envoy ally and he's lost his sense of hearing he'll be looking around even more than often to make sure no one is sneaking up on him and his allies haven't retreated behind his back.Ah, yes, "your ability doesn't work because I say so," freeform is certainly one word to describe that approach.No. It's, "Your ability doesn't work because the guy you're trying to use it on is currently in a vicious firefight and is deafened, so isn't paying attention to you."Why not have the Envoy tap him on the shoulder and give him the thumbs up?
Oh, right. Tapping people on the shoulder isn't part of the rules. Or is a Called Shot, unarmed.
My point is, during a combat situation, someone fighting is going to have better things to do than looking around like a lost puppy at their team mates. Namely, they are gonna be shooting the enemy and avoid being shot by the enemy.
Alright. Get a gun. Set up some targets. Get some sound mufflers for your ears, and a friend to stand behind you.
Now, try to look in all directions, focus on your friend long enough to see what he is doing and what he means, while shooting at the targets. In three seconds.
Sounds pretty simple, huh?
I don't think you're understanding.
This is not the problem
I'm not saying add a facing system. I'm saying use some common sense. Move away from strict rules and add some freeform stuff.
Common sense is the least common of the senses.
Common sense is often very wrong (if i had a dollar for every time I heard "the boyscout manual/survival manual says you died 2 hours ago...)
The game very often breaks with common sense. Oh, you got shot but your friend said its fine so you feel better now.
It's a last resort to deal with rules that are unclear or completely bonkers (even by the completely bonkers comparison with the other rules)
You're also not allowing for people to react to the situation they find themselves in. If you have some sort of vision arc all the person has to do is turn so that the envoy and the bad guy are in it.
It also leads to things like this...
My point is, during a combat situation, someone fighting is going to have better things to do than looking around like a lost puppy at their team mates. Namely, they are gonna be shooting the enemy and avoid being shot by the enemy.
What you've just said is that envoy improvisations functionally don't work because thats going to be the case every time you'd want to use them: its noisy and people are busy. You're denying a player (the guy you're playing the game with) the use of their characters abilities at pretty much your whim.
You're also using another element that's not in the rules (that you need to be standing there for the full 6 seconds looking at them to get the benefit).. Thats only not in the rules, its contraindicated by benefiting from the envoy not taking an action.
What you've just said is that envoy improvisations functionally don't work because thats going to be the case every time you'd want to use them: its noisy and people are busy. You're denying a player (the guy you're playing the game with) the use of their characters abilities at pretty much your whim.
It's not my whim. It's making a critical effect actually have a negative impact.
It's not my whim. It's making a critical effect actually have a negative impact.
What you've just said is that envoy improvisations functionally don't work because thats going to be the case every time you'd want to use them: its noisy and people are busy. You're denying a player (the guy you're playing the game with) the use of their characters abilities at pretty much your whim.
The critical effect has a negative impact. It's just not a very important one. Taking away something that explicitly works through visual or auditory means when you only lost one of those senses is absolutely your whim.
It's not my whim. It's making a critical effect actually have a negative impact.
Not just at this effect. Ever. The situations you're describing shutting off envoy improvs are present in every combat
Yeah, I wouldn't resort to such house ruling either. Too much potential for pissing off the players (and other reasons).
Instead, have the envoy improvisations that are reliant solely on hearing simply not work for deafened characters. If they are hearing based OR sight based, then they don't work IF the target(s) can't see the envoy (such as if they were around a corner or something), but otherwise works just fine provided line of sight is maintained during the ability's activation (and possibly during the course of its duration, depending on the ability in question).
Yeah, I wouldn't resort to such house ruling either. Too much potential for pissing off the players (and other reasons).
Instead, have the envoy improvisations that are reliant solely on hearing simply not work for deafened characters. If they are hearing based OR sight based, then they don't work IF the target(s) can't see the envoy (such as if they were around a corner or something), but otherwise works just fine provided line of sight is maintained during the ability's activation (and possibly during the course of its duration, depending on the ability in question).
There aren't any that are solely reliant on hearing or visuals. Either they're sense-dependent, and you only need one or the other, or they're not, and you don't need either.
That makes it pretty simple then.
So is that ability an either/or, or something that must be seen AND heard?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would argue that the ones that are both sense and language dependent require hearing (or telepathy) to function (the environment being too noisy doesn't matter as you have suit intercoms, but you need to hear to use an intercom)
Unless the two characters involved know a sign language
So is that ability an either/or, or something that must be seen AND heard?
When I glanced at the rule earlier today, it looked like it was OR.
I would just accept that any practical effect it may have is incredibly niche instead of doing houserule gymnastics to make it meaningful.
"Some envoy improvisations are language-dependent, mind-affecting, sense-dependent, or some combination of any or all of these."
It really is important to know if an Improvisation that has a combination requires both or only one in order to have an effect.
All sense dependent ones require either hearing or vision, not both. This language is saying that they may also be language dependent (raising a sign language barrier if you’re deaf) or mind affecting.
So then the Envoy and the deafened character would both need to know sign language for it to work?
For those that have both the sense-dependent and language-dependent effects, sure.
So then the Envoy and the deafened character would both need to know sign language for it to work?
Or some other form of inaudible communication. Some races might rely on telepathy, pheromones, or any number of alternative forms of nonverbal communication.