Bleed and Undead


Running the Game


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just wanting to double check -- it looks like bleed damage works on all undead creatures. Even Skeletons aren't immune to bleed. I have no opinion if it should or should not be the case, but I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something. I scanned the book for mentions of bleed damage to see if it calls out that it only works on living creatures or something, but couldn't find anything.

Bleed works on all creatures unless that creature specifically lists bleed as an immunity, correct? (So far all I can find is that it looks like constructs have bleed immunity across the board)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Going off of the entry for persistent damage in the handbook (pg. 323), I would say that's not the case:

Quote:
Persistent damage can have the bleed type, meaning it affects only living creatures that need blood to survive. Bleeding automatically ends if you’re healed to your maximum Hit Points.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hahaaaaaa I was searching for "bleed damage" and missed that. Thanks!


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Wow, that is well hidden. And annoying as heck, as now I have to come up for loads of critters with the answer to the Question "Do they bleed?"
Like, Demons. Fae. Flesh Golems. Abberations. All manner of Aliens. Why should Vampires not take bleed damage?
Please put immune to bleed into the Groups description and not hidden in the bleed trait, this is counterintuitive. If all other immunities and resistances are listed there, I don't want to search for some outliers.


DerNils wrote:

Wow, that is well hidden. And annoying as heck, as now I have to come up for loads of critters with the answer to the Question "Do they bleed?"

Like, Demons. Fae. Flesh Golems. Abberations. All manner of Aliens. Why should Vampires not take bleed damage?
Please put immune to bleed into the Groups description and not hidden in the bleed trait, this is counterintuitive. If all other immunities and resistances are listed there, I don't want to search for some outliers.

Yeah, man, that's hard to find.

But it's easy to adjucate, I think: is it living? If yes, does it need blood? If yes again, persistent bleed damage it gets.

Demons, Fae, Abberations, most Aliens (if not undead) all take bleed damage.

Golems don't count as living: "Golems are magically created, mindless automatons that..."

Vampires are a) undead, b) feed on blood, but (I suppose) don't have a functioning cardiovascular system (which I guess the "need blood to survive" is supposed to intend).


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I would definitely imagine Vampires bleed. If anything, I imagine vampires weak to bleeding, as blood is so important to them! Easy table variance to imagine happening.

This sort of thing should be clarified, with non-bleeding enemies having 'Immune bleed, x, y, z, etc' in their stat blocks, and GMs able to modify that as appropriate, rather than have it be fiat for every enemy.


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No variance per RAW: "Persistent damage can have the bleed type, meaning it affects only living creatures that need blood to survive."

Vampires are undead. They aren't living creatures.

Plant people would not need blood, but count as living. They also would not be subject to persistent bleed damage. Same for oozes.

Aliens with green blood need that green blood -> they bleed.

Yes the rule is easy to miss, but it is not ambiguous.


Franz Lunzer wrote:

No variance per RAW: "Persistent damage can have the bleed type, meaning it affects only living creatures that need blood to survive."

Vampires are undead. They aren't living creatures.

Plant people would not need blood, but count as living. They also would not be subject to persistent bleed damage. Same for oozes.

Aliens with green blood need that green blood -> they bleed.

Yes the rule is easy to miss, but it is not ambiguous.

Plants are a maybe - you can make the argument that the sap that travels through the Xylem system is the equivalent of blood, https://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/5626/20151203/do-plants- have-blood

I agree with Lyee, it should be officially listed, at least in the type descriptions wherever they end up.


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I don't think it's as easy to adjucate as it seems.

What makes you think that Fae or demons bleed or need blood? In various interpretations there are examples of them having no blood, disgusting substances or even bugs inside their bodies. It comes down to how magical are your faeries/demons/aberrations, etc.

The Dominion of the black beasties are so strange regarding their physique and way of operating I have Zero idea if the have blood of any Kind or would Need it to operate.

Also, being alive is something that I find really debatable regarding demons, being projections of dead souls. Another example, familiars are now explicitly Magic in nature, do they bleed? I can choose to have a flying, talking weasel that has no upkeep cost, therefore I could make a valid argument it does not eat. There are many, many edge cases.

I Chose the Flesh Golem as example because he is our fantasy Frankenstein Monster Expy - Frank tends to be alive and have organs, so...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In an exception based game, there are a few too many exceptions for the exceptions....


My rule of thumb is that if you cut something's body and something comes out of the hole at a reasonable pace due to internal pressure - be it blood, xylem, insects, fiendish ichor, alchemical battery solution, or whatever - then the thing is subject to bleed damage.

So, most plant creatures would be subject to bleed, but ones specifically made of wood like an animated tree probably shouldn't be since their sap moves so much slower than the liquids in other plants. A skeleton obviously can't bleed, but a vampire, sure. An alchemical golem should bleed even if a stone golem does not. Etc


That's a good rule of thumb, but I shouldn't Need it. And as I said, there are Things in the Bestiary where I have no idea if something Comes out if I cut it OR if they are alive in any meaningful sense. Just make it "everything bleeds, unless we say so"
If they make rules interact with it, please make it a trait or part of the Monster description.


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Honestly I hate presistent damage. Just makes the combat more muddled than it already is. It took us the longest time just to figure out what a flat check is, and the fact you can only reduce to DC 15. Oh and you have to take special action to do it, and bleeding requires a medicine check to do it. Potions don't remove any presistent damage, neither do any healing spells I've seen. Just gut it out of the system.


Gutting it's kind of an extreme solution and not necessary. It just needs a bit of cleanup. I'd just ask for a Medicine check for all of them, which can be made untrained, once per medic per target per round. On a critical success, that check immediately ends the condition; on a regular success, it reduces the DC to end the condition by 5, and this can keep being reduced past 15 to eventually reach 0, whereupon the condition immediately ends.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah I mean... that just sounds like part of the process of learning a new system, Grave Knight. You now know what a flat check is. You know that you can reduce it with an action to DC 15. Again, one thing that is easy to miss, is that characters can be assisted by others to gain more flat check attempts, and every time a character is healed they can again flat check against the damage. I dunno, honestly for my group this has been one of the easier systems to digest in the playtest.

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