kineticist elemental whisper (familiar) wild talent: need clarification


Rules Questions

Sczarni

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does this familiar-like thing follow familiar death rules for bringing it back?

i keep rereading the rules and everything basically says it smells like a familiar, looks like a familiar, and walks like one (except for a few things), but it’s not a familiar.

but nowhere, that i can interpret, there is raw that if it dies, it would take time to be brought back — like a week and gp for a familiar.

here is the potential problem:
- kineticist can just think it into existence
- if it takes any damage, it blinks out of existence
- when this happen, can kineticist just immediately think it back into existence?

if all the above is true, it’s broken.

one of my players sent it chasing after an enemy into an area. it inadvertently set off a trap. it took damage and blinked out of existence. party is safe and sound. trap is disabled. player immediately “summons” it again. players are ecstatic to have learned this loophole.

am i missing something, or is this a freebie trap off-setter?


So this is in the wrong forum (this "Classes" is for the Pathfinder Playtest, which doesn't have a Kineticist), but I think you're missing something key about Elemental Whispers.

Quote:
As a standard action, you can give the voice of the element the body of such a creature, using elemental matter of the appropriate element within 30 feet. As long as you concentrate, the familiar can take actions as a normal animal of its type, and it can move any distance away from you, though if it takes any damage or you cease concentrating, it returns to your mind.

Concentrating to keep your familiar extant is like concentrating to maintain a spell- it costs a standard action every round. Since you have better things to do with a standard action (like Kinetic blast) (non-Greater) Elemental Whispers is pretty useless in combat, but handy if you need to march a goat down a hallway to check for traps. Plus, it lets take the Greater version later, which is super useful (Wysps are extremely handy accuracy boosters.)

So in your scenario it's:
-Standard action to bring your familiar into existence.
-Standard action every round to keep it existing
-If it takes damage, it stops existing.
-If you want it back, you can spend a standard action to bring it back whenever you want.

Since you only get one standard action per round, it's not really broken.

Sczarni

my bad for overlooking the wrong forum...

ok thx for pointing out the concentration part, but you still don’t think it’s broken about the trap off-setting part?

that’s like having a rogue disable device ability, here failing at the check but essentially succeeding, with zero repercussions — imagine, say a more lethal pit trap (the trap that was set off was no joke either — falling rocks at +10 for 3d6 at level 2) or at higher level with explosive runes or symbol of whatever spells (i’m obviously ignoring the reset aspect)— but the party not having nor rely on any trap skills, got forewarned, and prob bypassing unscathed?

there’s no cost except for a thought to freely “conjure” it literally any time (not like the limit of spells per day use), repeatedly and limitless during the day.

and precisely as you said: but even if it were a real goat, there’s limitations there — bringing a bunch of goats everywhere, especially underwater, is not doable, or even summoning goats at-will isn’t possible at level 2. the point is, it shouldn’t be that free and simple. which is why i think it’s broken.


In terms of defeating weight-based traps, you could always use a cantrip for 7.5 kg/level of water. So I'm not sure a disposable familiar is much worse on that front.

Sczarni

The Sideromancer wrote:
In terms of defeating weight-based traps, you could always use a cantrip for 7.5 kg/level of water. So I'm not sure a disposable familiar is much worse on that front.

i don't think this is a sensible response and doesn't address the issue presented.

in response to your comparison:

- a thing of water is not sentient/intelligent. the "familiar" is with a 7 int; it can be instructed to move around and explore on its own, sending back information

- the water has to be manipulated by someone, i.e. the person has to come into the trap's proximity and possibly setting off an area trap

- it was mentioned that this encounter (where the trap is) was underwater, so your water idea makes not sense

the problem at hand, and you mentioned it exactly, is the disposable "familiar."


I mean, when it comes to "safely triggering traps" the kineticist is already kind of the king since a telekineticist can just push/drag that piano/statue/crate down the hallway and see what happens, at 0 cost to themselves. If you need to see around corners air and aether have options.

"Using the tools you have at your disposal to solve problems in creative ways" is sort of what the kineticist does out of combat so I don't know if a "fire goat when you want it" is a problem.


No, this is not unbalanced, and there are similar abilities. For example, the Occultist's soulbound puppet - which is more versatile as it allows a full familiar with the associated game playing with familiar archetypes (see for example, protector familiars...).

Further, if this disrupts your game, you might want to start thinking ahead to what happens when/if your kineticist gets Spark of Life.

Sczarni

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ah, i would agree with you if it were a telekineticist.

this is a phytokineticist -- can shoot stuff, but that expends resources, where as a telekineticist, as you pointed out, would be great at manipulating objects for free and with practically no expense of resources (i.e. limited power uses per day, magic item expending rounds, etc., etc)

my point here is not how it's done. however, there still needs to be:
- perception checks to discover the trap
- (for higher level traps) skill to successfully disarm so as to overcome reset
- ability to disarm magical traps (at higher level to overcome duration of spell, etc)

to name a few obstacles that require the party using resources and/or skills.

whereas the "familiar," there is nothing (or practically negligible) expended: no need to even detect the trap -- just send the thing 30-60 feet ahead, it sets off traps, summon another, rinse and repeat for unlimited amount of times, with no "summoning" duration limitation.

you don't thinks that's broken?

i think what i might want to house rule is find a similar spell and restrict it to uses per day. i just think it's "too good" for especially lower level party to have.

Sczarni

pad300 wrote:

No, this is not unbalanced, and there are similar abilities. For example, the Occultist's soulbound puppet - which is more versatile as it allows a full familiar with the associated game playing with familiar archetypes (see for example, protector familiars...).

Further, if this disrupts your game, you might want to start thinking ahead to what happens when/if your kineticist gets Spark of Life.

just read spark of life -- it seems like that requires the use of resources, which i don't have an issue, as long as it does like everything else: spells, abilities, etc. this matters during encounters or situations where the expense of resources matters. it's part of the gaming balance to see how a player makes do with what (s)he has. the familiar thing is practically free.

(i have not completely immersed in playing the class, so i can't comment on that ability at this point. thx for pointing it out tho.)

[addendum]
even the soulbound puppet requires resource expenditure and clearer restrictions.

[more addendum]
the protector familiar is *actually* a familiar and would follow rules for bringing it back after it expires. (pardon me if i'm making an incorrect assumption here: but have you read the description for the kineticist's elemental whisper "familiar?")


wyld wrote:
pad300 wrote:

No, this is not unbalanced, and there are similar abilities. For example, the Occultist's soulbound puppet - which is more versatile as it allows a full familiar with the associated game playing with familiar archetypes (see for example, protector familiars...).

Further, if this disrupts your game, you might want to start thinking ahead to what happens when/if your kineticist gets Spark of Life.

just read spark of life -- it seems like that requires the use of resources, which i don't have an issue, as long as it does like everything else: spells, abilities, etc. this matters during encounters or situations where the expense of resources matters. it's part of the gaming balance to see how a player makes do with what (s)he has. the familiar thing is practically free.

(i have not completely immersed in playing the class, so i can't comment on that ability at this point. thx for pointing it out tho.)

[addendum]
even the soulbound puppet requires resource expenditure and clearer restrictions.

[more addendum]
the protector familiar is *actually* a familiar and would follow rules for bringing it back after it expires. (pardon me if i'm making an incorrect assumption here: but have you read the description for the kineticist's elemental whisper "familiar?")

Ok, Spark of Life, costs either a) burn to not have to concentrate or b) concentration, like Elemental Whispers, if you want it to stay around. Unlimited elementals can do a lot more than unlimited familiars...

Yes, I do understand how Elemental Whispers works. You get alertness and a an individual familiar bonus, which is fixed. If the kineticist concentrates he can manifest, at will, a familiar-esque elemental critter. Soulbound Puppet is more problematic because, although it costs a point of Mental Focus to recreate every time, it lasts a long time (10 Minutes per level) without concentration, and as an actual familiar, it can use all the familiar archetypes, like protector. Every
time you summon one though, you can pick a completely new animal/archetype/other things the player picks with a fmailiar.

Protector for example comes with:

Protector Familiar Archetype wrote wrote:


Shield Master (Su)
At 5th level, whenever a protector or its master takes hit point damage, as long as the protector and its master are touching, its master can split the damage evenly between them as if under the effects of shield other.

This replaces deliver touch spells and speak with animals of its kind.

Effectively doubling the Occultists HP.

Another fun trick with Soulbound puppet is pulling any skill you want by using the sage & figment templates to get for 2x Level in skill points distributed however you please, and the ability to use the Eidolon's Skilled 1 point evolution for a +8 on top of those ranks.

Again, you can't do this kind of thing with a Elemental Whisper - it's not a familiar, and thus can't take the familiar archetypes.

Sczarni

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@pad300 -- i think we're talking about the same thing but in different ways.

yes, elemental whisper is very limited, but do you see the loophole with the trap thing tho?

i guess maybe it might be just me seeing it as problematically unbalanced, how traps are too easily and freely bypassed to be allowed at low levels.

like i said, i will have to think about how to close that loophole.

i appreciate the feedback.

Sczarni

.
here’s a situation where i think it would be broken:

party comes to a hallway, maybe/maybe not detects the whole stretch is full of explosive runes. sends elemental whisper down the hall. it sets off a rune. okay party thinks maybe there are more runes/traps. it’s summoned again and repeats, at-will.

broken.

say party has no rogue (or disable device skill) and has a caster to detect/dispel magic; this takes up resources and has chances of not successfully dispelled. party needs to come up with other solutions. this is more acceptable and balanced for me, where as the elemental whisper exploit is just, well, game-breaking.


But is a hallway full of explosive runes worth preserving as an obstacle?


Are the runes doing enough damage to kill the familiar? If they are then they will need a new familiar.

Sczarni

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@sideromancer: not sure what you mean ... but let’s say they need to get through hallway to get to next step (which is a moot point; why the hallway is there is not important — substitute it for any similar obstacle/hazard that the party needs to overcome)

@doomman47: don’t mean to sound snippity at your question, but maybe you need to know what the elemental whisper is; when you do, your question will answer itself. (short answer: it’s a low-level ability and winks outs when it takes *any* damage. and that’s exactly what i’m trying to say: it’s a low-level resource — actually not even: costing but a thought — to break a high-level trap).


If the situation where the familiar is overpowering isn't one anybody wants to spend time resolving, it's arguably worse for the game to remove an option that bypasses it. Personally, make X check or take Y damage is about as uninteresting as it gets, so for me the situation is broken and should be removed, rather than the character ability.

Sczarni

The Sideromancer wrote:
If the situation where the familiar is overpowering isn't one anybody wants to spend time resolving, it's arguably worse for the game to remove an option that bypasses it. Personally, make X check or take Y damage is about as uninteresting as it gets, so for me the situation is broken and should be removed, rather than the character ability.

what? that’s saying “we made this class that has ability x that’s (unintentionally) broken; so let’s go back and rewrite all the adventures and remove or rework parts where this ability makes the situation irrelevant.”


wyld wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
If the situation where the familiar is overpowering isn't one anybody wants to spend time resolving, it's arguably worse for the game to remove an option that bypasses it. Personally, make X check or take Y damage is about as uninteresting as it gets, so for me the situation is broken and should be removed, rather than the character ability.
what? that’s saying “we made this class that has ability x that’s (unintentionally) broken; so let’s go back and rewrite all the adventures and remove or rework parts where this ability makes the situation irrelevant.”

What I believe Sid is saying is that the scenario you are bringing up sounds uninteresting for the players and that being able to bypass that is a good thing. As a side note I do not think it is overpowered.

Instead of finding a way to try and 'Balance' it try to drop hints that using that too much may be a bad idea. Maybe make it so that this thing randomly floating about alerts enemies up ahead and they prepare for an ambush. Perhaps the trap effects a large area (Maybe a 150ft long tunnel, and when someone reaches the middle poisonous gas starts to fill the area unless they can open the door, in which case using it will have put them at a disadvantage, because they are further from the door.) Or triggers an alarm of some kind, that would have been more obvious in person and have no drawback if simply disabled from the start.


Maybe we can do better than saying "yeah, but traps are stupid so who cares"?

Sczarni

Hoshi Akane wrote:
...the scenario you are bringing up sounds uninteresting for the players and that being able to bypass that is a good thing.

i will assume when you say "scenario," you are referring to my explosive runes example. if that was what you meant, then yes, at higher level, that hallway wouldn't be very interesting nor inventive as a challenge. the intention was more to simply illustrate how a higher cr trap getting nerfed by a (very) low-level ability.

ok, so let's take an actual game situation (one of adventure paths -- not mentioning which, and i'm gonna try not give too much specific descriptions risking becoming spoilers): party is currently at level 2, and this accidental exploit has already spared them potential high damage to hp; they were left unscathed -- didn't even enter the proximity of trap because the "familiar" accidentally entered the area. massive damage meant nothing to it; it blinks out. pc "re-summoned" immediately by just thinking about it -- not even an action.

party will eventually get to very high levels, and part of the many interesting challenges is to overcome a fair amount of symbol of [different effects] spells. i can already see these high cr challenges become irrelevant (or rendered exponentially less effective than they should be) as this "familiar" is exploited.

to address your point: yes, there will be situations where it's just going to the grinds of game mechanics, which possibly isn't fun for *everyone* at the table, but should the gm (even if the encounter might be fun him) just waive it because *somebody* might find it uninteresting? some encounters are dry, and as lower level pcs, you just gotta do the grind. if i wanted to have the excitement of high level gameplay, i could have done that: start the pcs off at mid-level, bypassing the first 3 books.

Hoshi Akane wrote:
As a side note I do not think it is overpowered.

i never used the word "overpowered" (which it really isn't). i think it's broken and needs a little more restrictions for the level that it is. it might have been designed to give the kineticist an opportunity to gain something like a familiar, but i don't think it was foreseen as an exploit. (not sure if this ability is allowed in pfs, but i can definitely imagine rampant exploitation).

Hoshi Akane wrote:
Instead of finding a way to try and 'Balance' it try to drop hints that using that too much may be a bad idea.

i'm not sure "may be a bad idea" warning helps here -- what happens if the player continues to use it because the rules allow him to? the game is rules-based with mechanics to (ideally) level the playing field. simply dropping hints like that is not any different from just heavy-handed saying "because i'm the gm" -- there's no guidelines or consistency in this approach to run a balanced encounter.

Hoshi Akane wrote:
Maybe make it so that... Perhaps the trap effects a large area... Or triggers...

sure, there can be countless imaginative ways to approach this. i'm not running a house-ruled game. i also think house rules often break more than they attempt to fix. i may bring my interpretation and imagination to run the campaign, which is fine for non-encounter, exploratory parts of the game. but ultimately, it's the encounters that count and dictate well-deserved advancement in levels, loot, and wealth for the pcs after a fair fight.

i'm not interested in creating and making many changes to current rules (simply no time to gm and fidget that level of details for me). i am identifying very specific problems and hope to find a fix that doesn't change the fundamental parts of the ability/power/whatever.


wyld wrote:
i will assume when you say "scenario," you are referring to my explosive runes example...

Yes, I should have been more clear.

wyld wrote:
...not even an action...

Already mentioned above, which renders this ability really only useful for scouting and ruining the majority of traps.

wyld wrote:
...i can already see these high cr challenges become irrelevant (or rendered exponentially less effective than they should be) as this "familiar" is exploited...

That certainly does sound like an issue now.

wyld wrote:
i never used the word "overpowered" (which it really isn't). i think it's broken and needs a little more restrictions for the level that it is...

I apologize, I have come to mix up the words and meanings of broken and Overpowered as they are generally used the same in my experience.

wyld wrote:
...(not sure if this ability is allowed in pfs, but i can definitely imagine rampant exploitation)...

Archives of Nethys has it marked as PFS legal so I have reason to believe it is.

wyld wrote:
...i am identifying very specific problems and hope to find a fix that doesn't change the fundamental parts of the ability/power/whatever...

Am I correct to interpret this as you want suggestions on how to house rule this ability to fix it? If not I don't quite understand the point of this anymore.

Sczarni

Hoshi Akane wrote:
Am I correct to interpret this as you want suggestions on how to house rule this ability to fix it? If not I don't quite understand the point of this anymore.

well, yea, i would.

so far, the feedback has been people don't think it's a problem so i haven't gotten any suggestions -- ones that would alter the rule for this ability but not make it any more or less, if that makes sense.

i've been thinking about it all day:

since this is a mental ability that manifests physically (the "familiar" attacks, it sets off traps, etc), it would then tax the kineticist in a psychosomatic way if it's overused, especially if it takes damage. so, mechanically, there would have to be a point system to use per day, not unlike grit or arcane pool, or somehow tied to constitution.

simple version: points available for use calculated same manner as other classes that use points per day

moderately complicated: if familiar takes damage, it would blink out as currently ruled (among default rules). however, when it can be "re-imagined" depends on the amount of damage that was inflicted.

if damage amount inflicted was:

- less than or equal kineticist's level (minimum of 1) -- anytime if in encounter as swift action
- an amount of 1/4 or more of kineticist's total health -- 30 minutes
- an amount of 1/2 or more of kineticist's total health -- 2 hours
- an amount equal or beyond kineticist's total health -- after 8 hours rest

this would translate to roughly at-will, 5-7 times per day, 3 times per day, and once per day.

this would discourage kineticist to send familiar anywhere haphazardly, and treat and protect it like the precious and fragile thing that a familiar is. it's shouldn't generally be used like a more robust animal companion.

so, e.g. if 2nd level kineticist with 19 hp, 1 point of inflicted damage on familiar is manageable, can immediately re-imagine into existence; 10 points of damage would take 2 hours minimum to re-imagined; and massive high-damage from falling rock (3d6) trap would psychosomatically shock the kineticist, needs rest to re-imagine.

keep in mind this is rough sketch of solutions, especially the moderate version.


wyld wrote:
@doomman47: don’t mean to sound snippity at your question, but maybe you need to know what the elemental whisper is; when you do, your question will answer itself. (short answer: it’s a low-level ability and winks outs when it takes *any* damage. and that’s exactly what i’m trying to say: it’s a low-level resource — actually not even: costing but a thought — to break a high-level trap).

Just because it goes back to your mind doesn't mean it didn't take the damage and when it takes enough damage to kill it, it still dies so if it takes enough damage to kill it out right you have a dead familiar since even in your mind it still has hit points and when it runs out of those hit points bye bye familiar also it doesn't auto regen its hit points to full each time you summon it so each time you use it to soak a trap it still keeps the damage and either needs to wait to be healed or until it can heal all the damage naturally.

Sczarni

doomman47 wrote:
Just because it goes back to your mind doesn't mean it didn't take the damage and when it takes enough damage to kill it, it still dies so if it takes enough damage to kill it out right you have a dead familiar since even in your mind it still has hit points and when it runs out of those hit points bye bye familiar also it doesn't auto regen its hit points to full each time you summon it so each time you use it to soak a trap it still keeps the damage and either needs to wait to be healed or until it can heal all the damage naturally.

haha that run-on sentence gave me brain tumor ;-)

actually, here, do a quick reading of it:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/utilit y-wild-talents/ (do a page search "elemental whisper")

from your text -- emphasizing hit points -- i don't think you get what it is.

it has no hit points. there is not a mention of hit points. it's the kineticist's imagination, "a fragment of your element," a thought (that magically/supernaturally/whatever manifests physically for any period of time). the description refers to rules for a familiar to use as guideline to create the "familiar," but it is *not* a physical being. when it's manifested, it has stats, but practically for other mechanics except hit points.

it's basically a thought bubble, and those don't have hit points.

it winks out whether it takes one damage or 1 million. it doesn't matter. there is not hit point rules, i.e. "a dead familiar (because it's not)," "kill it", or "takes enough damage," or "healed," or "keeps the damage," or "regen," or "wait to be healed," or "heal all the damage naturally (it's not even natural in a biological form)" -- none of it applies.

it either exists or it does not. nothing in between in terms of measurable/trackable hit points. it does not have hit points in or out of your mind because -- yes -- it's just a thought.

okay, now that i've beaten that dead horse, i think you are still missing the point.


wyld wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Just because it goes back to your mind doesn't mean it didn't take the damage and when it takes enough damage to kill it, it still dies so if it takes enough damage to kill it out right you have a dead familiar since even in your mind it still has hit points and when it runs out of those hit points bye bye familiar also it doesn't auto regen its hit points to full each time you summon it so each time you use it to soak a trap it still keeps the damage and either needs to wait to be healed or until it can heal all the damage naturally.

haha that run-on sentence gave me brain tumor ;-)

actually, here, do a quick reading of it:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/utilit y-wild-talents/ (do a page search "elemental whisper")

from your text -- emphasizing hit points -- i don't think you get what it is.

it has no hit points. there is not a mention of hit points. it's the kineticist's imagination, "a fragment of your element," a thought (that magically/supernaturally/whatever manifests physically for any period of time). the description refers to rules for a familiar to use as guideline to create the "familiar," but it is *not* a physical being. when it's manifested, it has stats, but practically for other mechanics except hit points.

it's basically a thought bubble, and those don't have hit points.

it winks out whether it takes one damage or 1 million. it doesn't matter. there is not hit point rules, i.e. "a dead familiar (because it's not)," "kill it", or "takes enough damage," or "healed," or "keeps the damage," or "regen," or "wait to be healed," or "heal all the damage naturally (it's not even natural in a biological form)" -- none of it applies.

it either exists or it does not. nothing in between in terms of measurable/trackable hit points. it does not have hit points in or out of your mind because -- yes -- it's just a thought.

okay, now that i've beaten that dead horse, i think you are still missing the point.

It's a familiar, familiars follow the standard familiar rules of half their masters hp as their hp. This is why I never and I mean never actually make my familiar leave my mind its safe up there were it could be killed while manifested out side it. Don't believe me take a look at the figment familiar its basically what the elemental whispers except always manifested.

Sczarni

doomman47 wrote:
It's a familiar, familiars follow the standard familiar rules of half their masters hp as their hp. This is why I never and I mean never actually make my familiar leave my mind its safe up there were it could be killed while manifested out side it. Don't believe me take a look at the figment familiar its basically what the elemental whispers except always manifested.

.

first paragraph for the figment (familiar archetype) rules:

Restriction: Elemental whisper familiars, shaman spirit animals, witch familiars, and familiars that grant spells can’t take the figment archetype, because they are attached to patrons or spirits.

(https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-arc hetypes/figment-familiar-archetype/)


wyld wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
It's a familiar, familiars follow the standard familiar rules of half their masters hp as their hp. This is why I never and I mean never actually make my familiar leave my mind its safe up there were it could be killed while manifested out side it. Don't believe me take a look at the figment familiar its basically what the elemental whispers except always manifested.

.

first paragraph for the figment (familiar archetype) rules:

Restriction: Elemental whisper familiars, shaman spirit animals, witch familiars, and familiars that grant spells can’t take the figment archetype, because they are attached to patrons or spirits.

(https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-arc hetypes/figment-familiar-archetype/)

Your point? I was stating that elemental whispers functions similarly to how the figment does not saying every elemental whisper has the figment archetype

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