Changing the proficiency numbers


Playing the Game

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With the playtest being so hard to get that edge I don't see how well we can play with PC at different levels. A 5th level fight playing with a 1st level cleric, the cleric will have a hard time playing the game. And this can be common as the PFS has their tiers of play. They can't have a tier for every level.

As a solution I suggest the proficiency bonus be half the PC's level. This makes the difference not so large between levels. Or even when fights foes levels higher. You'll still get all of your bonuses to still but the bonuses you have will matter more as they won't started becoming more than your key attribute until level 8 as opposed to level 4.


I am thinking that 1/2 bonus per level would work better as well though for different reasons since I have never experienced any DnD or PF group with party members of different levels, maybe that's a thing in PFS.

My primary reason is that since each +1 grants a boost to hit and to crit (or inverse for saves) it actually means that the scaling of relative power as a function of level is more extreme than in PF1. I happen to like the high fantasy crazy dynasty warriors power that high level PF1 characters enjoy but making it more extreme than that seems unnecessary. For example a group of lvl 9 PCs fighting say, a lvl 12 sea serpent should be hard but not nearly as deadly as it was in Doomsday Dawn.

Silver Crusade

I personally would like to see the proficiency bonus doubled.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I personally would like to see the proficiency bonus doubled.

Halving the lvl component doubles the ratio of training to level. So that is something.


The proficiency bonus includes level.
So, let's try a different approach: doubling the +lvl to everything!


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I'm with 1/2 bonus as well or even 1/3 or 1/4. Having an Untrained high level character having a higher bonus than a 7th level master of that skill is a bit absurd. As it stands now, it basally makes the bonus from Attributes/Proficiency(untrained, trained, Expert, Master, Legendary) less important than your level. Sure you'll be able to 'do some more stuff' but any of the basic actions you can perform with a skill, anyone who's higher level can do it better than you, (on average). Sure the -4 for being untrained helps a bit, but i dont think it's enough.

"Oh your a Master at Acrobatics? Well I'm 4 levels higher so our bonuses are the same" or "Oh you have an 18 in an Attribute and I have an 8, 5 levels will fix that!"

Silver Crusade

Bardarok wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I personally would like to see the proficiency bonus doubled.
Halving the lvl component doubles the ratio of training to level. So that is something.

Actually, I think level to everything works decently well, it just feels weird right now that that the wizard with his dagger only has a marginally worse bonus to hit than the fighter. Of course, the wizard can usually pair 1 good attack with a spell, while the fighter will have to deal with MAP eventually.

Dark Archive

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I personally would like to see the proficiency bonus doubled.
Halving the lvl component doubles the ratio of training to level. So that is something.
Actually, I think level to everything works decently well, it just feels weird right now that that the wizard with his dagger only has a marginally worse bonus to hit than the fighter. Of course, the wizard can usually pair 1 good attack with a spell, while the fighter will have to deal with MAP eventually.

The suggested system makes the fighter bonus greater at all levels

At 1st level both str 14 (Old System)
Wizards - Dagger: +3 attack / 1d4+2 damage
Fighter - Dagger: +4 attack / 1d4+2 damage

At 5th level both str 14
Wizards - Dagger: +7 attack / 1d4+2 damage
Fighter - Dagger: +9 attack / 1d4+2 damage 28% better bonus

At 1st level both str 14 (Suggested System)
Wizards - Dagger: +2 attack / 1d4+2 damage
Fighter - Dagger: +3 attack / 1d4+2 damage

At 5th level both str 14
Wizards - Dagger: +4 attack / 1d4+2 damage
Fighter - Dagger: +6 attack / 1d4+2 damage 50% better bonus


That is entirely meaningless. In both systems, the level 5 fighter has a 10% better chance to hit. '% better bonus' is a complete junk number in a d20 system and shows a misunderstanding of the maths.

d20 success rate comes from the Absoloute Difference in Value between the DC and bonus. All the proposed change does is make different level characters more similar and reduce the amount of progress that happens. Yes, this makes level 1 characters more able to contribute alongside level 5 characters, but hurts the game in the process for a goal I've no interest in.


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Lyee wrote:

That is entirely meaningless. In both systems, the level 5 fighter has a 10% better chance to hit. '% better bonus' is a complete junk number in a d20 system and shows a misunderstanding of the maths.

d20 success rate comes from the Absoloute Difference in Value between the DC and bonus. All the proposed change does is make different level characters more similar and reduce the amount of progress that happens. Yes, this makes level 1 characters more able to contribute alongside level 5 characters, but hurts the game in the process for a goal I've no interest in.

Obviously comparing vs equal level challenge there is no difference but that's not the point.

The place where I see the +1/lvl hurts the game is in scaling. For example the sea serpent in chapter 4 is three levels higher than the PCs and maybe even odds of a tpk, the higher hit, AC, and critical rate on top of this makes it extremely deadly. In PF1 a group of lvl 9 adventures could beat a CR12 creature much easier.

I like how the critical system helps fight against action economy but I am worried that the +1/lvl combined with the critical system makes the difficulty scaling too steep such that PCs can't realistically fight things outside of their level which is going to homogenize adventures nor requiere a lot of GMs making custom monsters.

Dark Archive

Lyee wrote:

That is entirely meaningless. In both systems, the level 5 fighter has a 10% better chance to hit. '% better bonus' is a complete junk number in a d20 system and shows a misunderstanding of the maths.

d20 success rate comes from the Absoloute Difference in Value between the DC and bonus. All the proposed change does is make different level characters more similar and reduce the amount of progress that happens. Yes, this makes level 1 characters more able to contribute alongside level 5 characters, but hurts the game in the process for a goal I've no interest in.

Yes each bonus of 1 to a d20 is 5%

But a +6 bonus is 50% higher than a +4 bonus
4 + 50%(2) = 6

Characters are still progressing but just not as fast and in PFS many players play of different levels


'But a +6 bonus is 50% higher than a +4 bonus ' is a useless statement that ignores how the math actually works.

A +5 is 400% more than +1. It's only 20% more likely to succeed a given challenge. A +120 is 20% more than +100, but 100% more likely to succeed a given challenge.

Dark Archive

The suggestion to presented to make the players choices, stats, feats, more relevant than just being X level in any class.

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