Idea: Improving the "10 min camp" - Let us make everyone work!


General Discussion


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Ok, I've been thinking since the last update that I added the mechanics of Treat Wounds.

There are some activities that can be done currently while one of the characters heals the rest of the staff:

1) Affix a Trinket
2) Repair an Item
3) Identify Magic

So I thought why not create Skills Feats for all skills that would complement that dynamic so everyone could participate and have some effects. So the players are not just looking at one person rolling the die several times.

Among some examples I created:

1) Stretching
Requeriment: Trained in Acrobatics

You spend 10 minutes streching yourself, then attempt to Acrobatics check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Stretching attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: You are more mobile. You gain +1 in your acrobatics check and reflex save for 30 min

Critical Success: Same as the success, but the time is 1 hour

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Stretching

2) Keep Warm
Requeriment: Trained in Athletics

You spend 10 minutes exercising, then attempt to Athleticscheck. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Stretching attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: You are ready to strive. You gain +1 in your Athletics check and Fortitude save for 30 min

Critical Success: Same as the success, but the time is 1 hour

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Keep Warm

3) Sharp Blade
Requests: Expert in Crafting

You spend 10 minutes sharping your blade or making your weapon more deadly, then attempt a Crafting check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Sharp Blade attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: Your weapon does more damage. Increase your weapons damage for the next combat 1 die size

Critical Success: Same as success, but the effect persists for 2 combats for the day

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Keep Warm

4) Raise Moods
Requeriment: Expert in Performance

You spend 10 minutes performin for up to 6 living
creatures (targeting yourself as one of them, if you so choose), then attempt a Performance check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Raise Moods attempt per 10-minute period, so two characters can not performe to the same
target's simultaneously.

Success: For the next 30 min you gain an +1 conditional bonus on all skill checks

Critical Success: Same as success, but the effect persists for 1 hour

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Raise Moods

5) Bonding
Requests: Expert in Nature

You spend 10 minutes bonding with your mortal companion, then attempt a Nature check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Bonding attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: In the next combat, when you use the Command Minion action, your animal is quick 1 for the next round

Critical Success: Same as success, but the duration stays for 2 rounds

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Bonding

6) Praying
Requeriment: Trained in Religion, must have a Deity

You spend 10 minutes praying, then try Religion check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Praying attempt per 10-minute period

Success: You have your inner strength renewed. You gain +1 in your Religion checks and Will save for 30 min.

Critical Success: Same as success, but the effect persists for 1 hour

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Praying

7) Focus Study
Requeriment: Master in Religion, Arcana, Ocultism or Nature. Know the Cast a Spell activity

You spend 10 minutes focusing your raw power or studyng your magic, then attempt a proper check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Focus Study attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: You have your magic increased. You gain +1 in your Spell Roll checks for the next combat.

Critical Success: Same as success, but persist for 2 combats.

Critical Failure: You Are Bolstered Against Focus Study

8) Camouflage
Requeriment: Expert in Stealth

You spend 10 minutes using your surrounds to make yoursel more imperceptível, then attempt a Stealth check. The DC is usually the DC medium for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances. A given creature can be subject to only one Camouflage attempt per 10-minute period.

Success: You have blended in your surroundings. You gain +1 in your Stealth checks for the next 30 min, desde que se mantenha no mesmo ambiente.

Critical Success: Increase the bonus to +2 and the effect persist for 1 hour.

Critical Failure: You are bolstered against new Camouflage attempts.

I tried to make the bonus untyped so this could be good from level 1 to 20.

These are just some of the examples I've created. Using the same template, you can invent a lot of cool and easy things.

So, what do guys think?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like this idea. I'm not sure of the specific maths, but Paizo can balance numbers.

I don't like that the DCs for these activities scale by level, which makes very little sense. But that's a conversation that's happening elsewhere. I'd actually be happy if there was no roll involved here, just a small bonus to the following activity.

Do we need an icon for '10 minute activity'?


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I like the concept very much but not the specifics as outlined. But as a proof of concept I think this offers a great addition to the game. Kudos.


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I also like this idea, maybe not the specifics, but definitely the general idea for this kind of skill feats. The one suggestion I would add is that the feats should increase with proficiency (like cats fall).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On reflection, this reminds me of D&D 5e's advantage system. If you're prepared - by being well-rested, stretched, praying in advance etc - then roll the relevant d20 twice and take the better result.


This is one of those I don't Need. Downtime/Rest activities feel like maintenance, don't lend themselves to any roleplaying opportunity and cost tabletime. Saying "everybody does something" when in reality this leads to the same amount of player downtime while waiting for my onwn maintenance role is not an interesting addition.


sadie wrote:
On reflection, this reminds me of D&D 5e's advantage system. If you're prepared - by being well-rested, stretched, praying in advance etc - then roll the relevant d20 twice and take the better result.

You don't gain Advantage from being well rested/prepared. You gain it from spells, features, effects, or at the DM's whim, if what you have setup deserves it (smart play). I think in some places it's bit much, but it's better than stacking 18 different +1s.


Not a fan. This will rseult in yet more rolls during downtime, more things to track (which bonuses do I have, and which ones am I bolstered against), and an incentive for everyone to stand around as often as possible to get the bonuses.

In effect, the people doing craft repair and treat wounds will wind up taking 20 minute downtime instead, so they can also get one of these bonuses.


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I think you're borrowing a bit from the Kingmaker CRPG for this... and I really like it. Just some nice downtime activities that would make the resting segment more of an event (and less of a thing that's skipped over). Giving it actual substance will discourage people from abusing it for resource return, and potentially provide some roleplaying opportunities as well.

As for the complaints about tracking individual numbers... most of these bonuses are only for 30 minutes, but you can also borrow a bit more from the CRPG, and offer a few options that are more about defending the campsite than about temporary bonuses. Hunting and camouflaging the camp being a couple of obvious ones, but setting up lookout positions for guards or divining the likely best spot would also work.


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I really love the sound of some of these ideas.

The idea that the group can stop for 10mins and perform some actions to get back into fighting condition (with everyone contributing) would be an interesting change.

Makes me think of Darkest Dungeon (video game) where when you camp for the night you can choose what skill everyone in your party uses during the rest period.


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Kingmaker and Darkest Dungeon were some inspiration.

The problem I try to solve is that while someone is treating Wounds, all others players are just watching someone roll a lot of dices.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I've said for a while that I would like to see a Darkest Dungeon-style "breather rest" after a combat. It's a thing that usually happens anyway (someone wants to treat wounds, someone wants to loot the bodies, someone wants to search the room), so I see no reason not to codify it.

If you make it simple enough that players can roll their own dice without needing you to adjudicate the effects, it should move pretty fast, and it opens some nice RP/post combat description opportunities.

To quote Moulin Rouge, "generally I like it."

I mentioned in another thread that I'd probably take this a step farther and add in a disincentive to take more than a single 10-minute action. Basically classify these as "breather" actions, and then have a lot of buffs have a duration of "until you take more than one breather action between combats".

So as long as you keep up the momentum of explore a room, do a fight, take your breather actions, repeat, you can keep your buffs running... but if you need to sit down for multiple Treat Wounds or something then your buffs break.


How about one to refresh an ongoing buff spell?


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MaxAstro wrote:

I've said for a while that I would like to see a Darkest Dungeon-style "breather rest" after a combat. It's a thing that usually happens anyway (someone wants to treat wounds, someone wants to loot the bodies, someone wants to search the room), so I see no reason not to codify it.

If you make it simple enough that players can roll their own dice without needing you to adjudicate the effects, it should move pretty fast, and it opens some nice RP/post combat description opportunities.

To quote Moulin Rouge, "generally I like it."

I mentioned in another thread that I'd probably take this a step farther and add in a disincentive to take more than a single 10-minute action. Basically classify these as "breather" actions, and then have a lot of buffs have a duration of "until you take more than one breather action between combats".

So as long as you keep up the momentum of explore a room, do a fight, take your breather actions, repeat, you can keep your buffs running... but if you need to sit down for multiple Treat Wounds or something then your buffs break.

Those Skill Feats could have the Breather trait

Bheather

You can only use one Breather ability every hour.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think 1/hour might be too limiting, honestly. Gamist as it is, I really think 1/combat is the way to go if you want to go that route.


As a general idea I like it. I was thinking something along the lines of regaining spell points in a short rest might be good as well though with the focus changes I don't know if that makes sense or not.


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Dante Doom wrote:

Kingmaker and Darkest Dungeon were some inspiration.

The problem I try to solve is that while someone is treating Wounds, all others players are just watching someone roll a lot of dices.

The best idea I saw for Treat Wounds was the one to make it a ritual. You could set that up in a way that everyone gets to roll and the total group result determines the outcome, so everyone is contributing in some way.

I don't think we need another system bolted on when the "problem" (if one person rolling a single d20 to do treat wounds is even a problem) can be solved so much more simply.


Bardarok wrote:
As a general idea I like it. I was thinking something along the lines of regaining spell points in a short rest might be good as well though with the focus changes I don't know if that makes sense or not.

It'd probably involve some re-rebalancing of items, but honestly, I think it actually would work better with the focus changes. There probably needs to be some sort of balancing act there, as there are certainly ways to cheese the system, but with the reduced amount of focus, both for items (as even splitting resonance out into it's own thing, the gain due to level means this new system will have less "free" resonance to be used to power items) and spell points (1 or 2 + Cha is going to be less for most characters than Main stat + Number of other powers), not to mention the combination of the two, a way to get back focus seems ideal.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It reminds me of Torchbearer, which can only be a good thing.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I'd rather avoid bonuses I'm likely to forget. However, using random encounters can make the 10-minute rest an extension of exploration mode. Having people choose how they're guarding camp while others identify/heal/whatever allows some strategy without a lot of extra bookkeeping.


Charlie Brooks: Having played out scenarios where the DM rolled on the random encounter table every time we tried to rest, this usually turned into "okay, we have 2 HP and no resources whatsoever and a nice comfortable place to sleep. We push onward because resting means we'll probably just TPK."

It wasn't fun.

I agree that I'd rather not see bonuses that are liable to be forgotten by the table.

Being able to recuperate Focus Points (if that becomes official errata) could be an idea, or possibly spell slots of less than your highest slot level. I do like being able to sharpen weapons to increase their damage die for a certain length of time, or maybe something like spending time adjusting armor straps and rearranging items in packs to decrease a character's check penalties or even give them a temporary bonus to bulk carrying capacity until the next time you rest...


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'd rather not add more mechanics just for the sake of mechanic. Especially not extra rolls. If I want to add some RP between the encounters I want the RP to be the focus. If we want to get right back to the action, I don't want to derail with everyone thinking they _have_ to do something. a quick treat wounds, ad quick mending on a shield and just go go go.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NielsenE wrote:
I'd rather not add more mechanics just for the sake of mechanic. Especially not extra rolls. If I want to add some RP between the encounters I want the RP to be the focus. If we want to get right back to the action, I don't want to derail with everyone thinking they _have_ to do something. a quick treat wounds, ad quick mending on a shield and just go go go.

While I can agree with the sentiment, mechanics can certainly increase opportunities for interparty roleplay. Already players can ask in character for the party craftsperson to bang the dents out of their shield, or repair their dented weapon. Or ask the healer for some attention due to their recent battle wounds. If the 10-minute camp had 4 to six possible tasks to do that kept the party in the moment.

Right now it's:

Repair
Treat Wounds
Search
Investigate
Keep Watch
Provide Assistance

Which is a decent amount of useful things to do to keep the adventure hustling, and providing enough breathing space to RP, talk and plan the party's next move.


Tridus wrote:
The best idea I saw for Treat Wounds was the one to make it a ritual. You could set that up in a way that everyone gets to roll and the total group result determines the outcome, so everyone is contributing in some way.

"Fast" rituals would also open up room for material that could fill the slots proposed by the OP.

Some examples
--| Camouflage -> Ritual that grants group Invisibility
--| Sharpen Blade -> Ritual that grants group Magic Weapon
--| Keep Warm -> Ritual that grants group Jump

I'm planning to experiment with this in my homebrew playtest game and will be tossing them a "fast" ritual soon. Maybe I'll start with something like that group Jump idea. Need to think up the details.

But I do like some of the suggestions, like "Raise Moods", as non-rituals. How often does a non-Bard get to make use of Performance? Also, for Prayer, I like the idea that it would let a Vancian Divine Caster switch some of their prepared spells.


Of course this were only some examples. And it's pretty easy to come with new ones.

A lot of my players say that Skill Feats are until now boring and don't know what to get. So some of this examples could help with thia

Sovereign Court

I like the idea of there being a lot of different useful things you could do in 10 minutes, but that they're hedged a bit to ensure people don't cycle through ten different preparations between encounters. So saying something along the lines as "if you perform a Breather activity then the effects of all your previous Breather activities end" would help.

I'm also not a fan of DCs scaling by level; at that point, just be honest that you don't want this to be certain to succeed and make it a flat check. Alternatively, streamline things by saying you always succeed. Breather activities replace prebuffing then.


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This is a cool idea in its principle. The risk, however, is that it becomes a boring routine after a few repeats. Treat Wounds has this risk too, but it's worth it because the alternatives are exhausting the group's magical healing resources, or resting for the night.

So, I would suggest expanding this so that the players have to make choices. Do I sharpen my sword for a little bit more damage, or do I pray for a little bit of divine support? An easy way would be to make all of these basic downtime activities, instead of skill feats. This would bring an opportunity cost into the equation, instead of a feat cost. Also, there's another opportunity cost, if we specify that such downtime activities aren't possible while your wounds are being treated.


Hard pass on the idea as is. Frankly the last thing the game needs is even more encouragement for stopping for a smoke break after every single encounter. If your rests were limited by some external source (Starfinder Resolve, Darkest Dungeon type firewood blocks) then the idea has more promise, but just as a generic option? No thanks.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Hard pass on the idea as is. Frankly the last thing the game needs is even more encouragement for stopping for a smoke break after every single encounter. If your rests were limited by some external source (Starfinder Resolve, Darkest Dungeon type firewood blocks) then the idea has more promise, but just as a generic option? No thanks.

Do your parties not already do this in PF1e, though?

Mine certainly do. After almost every single encounter, barring severe time crunch, it's "alright, let's patch up those wounds, loot the bodies, and search the room before we move on... oh and identify the loot we found."


I like this, but Sharp Blade is a bit too powerful. It should probably only apply to the next hit with that weapon, not the whole next combat. (On a miss, it wouldn't be expended as you haven't done anything to dull it.)


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The problem is that every "free" buff will become mandatory (and even assumed by adventure designers, official or not).
I think that stretching or sharpening blades is something that characters already do in their routine, and it keeps them and their weapons at full efficiency; no need to go over that.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Hard pass on the idea as is. Frankly the last thing the game needs is even more encouragement for stopping for a smoke break after every single encounter. If your rests were limited by some external source (Starfinder Resolve, Darkest Dungeon type firewood blocks) then the idea has more promise, but just as a generic option? No thanks.

Do your parties not already do this in PF1e, though?

Mine certainly do. After almost every single encounter, barring severe time crunch, it's "alright, let's patch up those wounds, loot the bodies, and search the room before we move on... oh and identify the loot we found."

I definitely feel like this happens a lot, but I've heard a lot of complaints about how it feels too "gamey", and I can definitely see why they feel that way.

I personally think that some kind of "take a breath" mechanic, as has been brought up before, would create a better space for things like "Treat Wounds"/"Repair Items"/"Identify Items" to live.

I think if there were a process for triggering something like truncated version of "Downtime" mode mid adventuring where you could perform these types of actions would be healthier for the game.

Especially if such a trigger once only say "once per day" for the party, or had specific markers for it to trigger.

Theoretically it could also give Classes another metric of depth if Rest Activities could be accessed via Skills or even via Class specific:

Meditate
Restriction: must be engaged in the rest activity
Description: You recenter yourself. Choose a specific condition with the mental trait you currently are afflicted by. Roll a Will save DC 10 + 5 for every mental condition level you suffer, even conditions you suffer from but do not select increase this DC.

Failure: You fail to remove the selected condition
Success: You may lower the selected condition by 1
Critical Success: You may lower the selected condition by 2

The above is obviously just an example, but you could give Monk's access to this activity as part of their Class, Archetype, etc.

You could also just grant this as a Skill Feat or General Feat, which would give General Feat's more design space to work with.

I would note, this actually isn't a whole lot of extra book keeping. A single entry after the "Rest and Daily Preparations" section that covers "Mid Adventure Rests and Activities" would be pretty intuitive and fit right in with a lot of metrics.

You could then also offer activities like the above during preparations of a normal day, so they aren't exclusive to "Mid Day rests" and you don't have people starting the day with mid day rests just to get certain key benefits.

Treat Wounds for instance could receive a balance around the idea that it can be used only during this "Mid Day Rest" window, as opposed to between every encounter.

Personally I'd like something more codified as a GM, because telling my players "No you can't rest right now" and making me enforce that to their detriment is a lot less fun than it being explicit with "We want to use our Mid Day rest, do we meet the requirements?" as opposed to "We wait and fully heal everyone with Treat Wounds until we succeed" and then having them get attacked as a penalty for them taking near an hour of time doing this.

It definitely draws inspiration from Darkest Dungeon, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.

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