So charisma is now the most important stat in the game


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
The six save thing for D&D 5e doesn’t work that great in practice because most spells still key off Dex, Con and Wis anyway. It’s rare you need to save off the other three.

Yeah, they dropped the ball a bit with saves, and Dex is far and away the best score (Initiative, AC, Attacks, Damage, common Saving Throw, Stealth, no other score comes close). Str, Int, and Cha are easily dumped, depending on the character. I removed Dex to damage to take the edge off, I might also make Initiative a straight d20 roll, as several scores could apply.


Bardarok wrote:
If you could translate high Int into more expert/master/legendary skills instead of just trained skills that might help make Int better. Maybe something like at 14 and 18 int designate one skill which you are trained in as a signature skill you get a free boost at 2nd 7th and 13th levels in that skill.

I love this idea in theory, I just worry that it makes Wizards too good at being skill monkeys. That's not necessarily a negative, but it's something to bear in mind.


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After playing In Pale Mountain's Shadow, the limitations on bonus languages (most of them exclusively from taking the Multilingual general feat) definitely stings. The loss of linguistic PCs causes a lot of trouble, especially since you can't effectually cast Comprehend Languages until level 5, and then it runs into slot competition (does the wizard ready a heightened Comprehend Languages or a heightened Mage Armor? Which do they feel more likely to need on a given adventuring day?)

Adding a number of bonus languages equal to INT modifier bonus would be a great boon. Otherwise, large chunks of the storyline are liable to get lost because no PC happens to speak Upside-Down Elf-Gnollish (Western).


I still like going the other way.

Instead of trying to make all ability scores equally useful you make the choice more about what kind of character you want to play.

Will Saves = Highest of Int, Wis, or Cha
Focus = Highest of Int, Wis, or Cha
Remove the Trained skills bonus from Intelligence.

(Focus could be called Will Points or Willpower)

To me, this would make the choice more about your character, and which four skills you believe your character would be good at...


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like there's a big difference between "I have a weakness in a save, low armor class, or low HP because one of Dex, Wis, or Con is low" and "I am unable to use my powers granted by my class because my Charisma is low" particularly when nothing about the thematics of the class indicate "people with this class are charismatic."

Conan was pretty charismatic (at least he had a way with the ladies)...

Robin Hood lead the Merry Men....

Gandalf was pretty good at talking hobbits into doing crazy stuff...

Sheesh, when one of the big wizards that were the sources of the "thematics of the class" has high charisma, I think your argument doesn't hold much water.


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But playing a Wizard does not mean I want to be Gandalf, playing a Barbarian does not mean I want to be Conan, playing a Ranger does not mean I want to be Robin Hood. Sure, those are examples of a high charisma representative of that class but maybe I want my Barbarian to be Logen Ninefingers, or maybe I want my Wizard to have a caustic personality like Harry Dresden, or maybe I want my Ranger to be prickly and guileless like Rayla from "the Dragon Prince."

A class is supposed to represent a wide variety of fictional archetypes that it could cover, built and played in different ways, not exclusively the one which inspired it.


Evilgm wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
If you could translate high Int into more expert/master/legendary skills instead of just trained skills that might help make Int better. Maybe something like at 14 and 18 int designate one skill which you are trained in as a signature skill you get a free boost at 2nd 7th and 13th levels in that skill.
I love this idea in theory, I just worry that it makes Wizards too good at being skill monkeys. That's not necessarily a negative, but it's something to bear in mind.

Yah I know though if it is limited to two a max Int Wizard still has one less legendary skill than an Int 10 Rogue at lvl 20. It's a major boost at lvls 2, 7, 15 when the boosts become available. Maybe the second signature skill is at a delayed progression or something.


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I wonder what the design idea was behind removing extra languages (except one).
It would be a minor boon to have them back, but a boon nonetheless.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

But playing a Wizard does not mean I want to be Gandalf, playing a Barbarian does not mean I want to be Conan, playing a Ranger does not mean I want to be Robin Hood. Sure, those are examples of a high charisma representative of that class but maybe I want my Barbarian to be Logen Ninefingers, or maybe I want my Wizard to have a caustic personality like Harry Dresden, or maybe I want my Ranger to be prickly and guileless like Rayla from "the Dragon Prince."

A class is supposed to represent a wide variety of fictional archetypes that it could cover, built and played in different ways, not exclusively the one which inspired it.

Harry Dresden has a HIGH Charisma.


HWalsh wrote:
Harry Dresden has a HIGH Charisma.

I read the defining characteristic of Harry Dresden is that he is an enormous jerk to basically everyone he meets, but others might read him differently.


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You can be a charismatic jerk. The fact that people put up with him despite first impressions is due to his charismatic personality.


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There definitely are some rough edges where the power fueled classes are concerned.

I wonder if those classes need a ability that grants them a bonus Focus if their primary stat is higher than their Char. IE your Wizard who had an 18 Int and 12 Charisma and has powers.

Under stock, they would have had 4 Spell Points and would have had level +1 Resonance.

Now, they would have only 1 Focus. With my suggestion, since their Int is higher than their Cha, they'd net a +1 Focus for a total of 2.

IMO this is good because it still gives the reason to boost Cha to Int -2 to maximize their Focus, but if they don't increase Cha much, they still are a bit better off because of their specialty. It maintains an incentive to boost Cha, and it smooths that rough edge a bit.

PS About the Harry Dresden argument, he definitely was a charismatic jerk, look at the loyalty he can inspire in others. Look at all the people who answered his call to get his daughter back from the red court.


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Being a successful jerk is by itself a high charisma ability.

Starfinder has a general feat Antagonize: Make a diplomacy or intimidate check to enrage a foe. That foe gets penalties when attacking anyone except you.

Someone with low charisma is either forgettable or inept at social tasks.


I agree with people here that Int needs more uses. With the Focus change Cha is finally useful for everyone. Now Int is the de facto dump-stat for most classes. I don't like the idea of a dump stat, especially when you get four skill boosts at every 5th level.


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The benefit of having a bunch of additional trained skills, ones which you don't have the stats to back up and couldn't afford the items to support, is completely lost on me. Choosing between that and being able to carry much more than fullplate and a bag of holding seems like a pretty easy choice.

As for the weapon difference between supporting your weapon with strength over dex, the +4-7 lost from strength, +1 per die size lower than you'd have with a strength weapon, is always going to be a big chunk of your damage. Even assuming that our finesse user has access to elven curve blades, that's a loss of +6-9 or about 2 weapon dice for our finesse user. Three if they're stuck with a d6 weapon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Given the level of power of most spell point abilities and focus abilities, I actually don't think this changes all too much for charisma. These powers are simply not impactful enough to be worth investing in what would otherwise be a dump stat. It's a nice bonus if you're already charisma-based, or if you're in a position to dump both Str and Int, but I don't see charisma breaking the stranglehold that Dex/Con/Wis currently have as the most generally useful ability scores. You'd need radically more powerful abilities to convince people to actively invest in charisma for the purposes of focus.

As others have already touched on, Intelligence is in an even worse shape than Charisma. The simple fact is that you can only ever obtain master or better proficiency in three skills, and every class gets at least three free skill picks. This means that you're only ever going to be picking marginal secondary skills with those you get from intelligence. This is just not very valuable.

Certainly I do expect to see a complete rebalancing of affected classes if this change becomes permanent. Certainly wizard schools will need to be looked at, as right now the universalist is already the best of the bunch and making school powers charisma-based will be a huge nerf to specialists so the wizard will need some heavy internal rebalancing.

Liberty's Edge

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Dasrak wrote:
Given the level of power of most spell point abilities and focus abilities, I actually don't think this changes all too much for charisma.

Part of this change is upping the power level of such abilities. They've nearly doubled the damage on Fire Ray, for example (it goes up 2d6 per spell level instead of 1d6).

They've also explicitly noted that non-Cha Classes will get bonus Focus if grabbing Powers.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Part of this change is upping the power level of such abilities. They've nearly doubled the damage on Fire Ray, for example (it goes up 2d6 per spell level instead of 1d6).

Fire Ray still isn't a particularly strong power, though I do appreciate that it's at least better than cantrips now. I would also note that they dramatically nerfed Healer's Blessing.

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Dasrak wrote:
Fire Ray still isn't a particularly strong power, though I do appreciate that it's at least better than cantrips now. I would also note that they dramatically nerfed Healer's Blessing.

They've explicitly stated that increasing their power is a design goal. Healer's Blessing appears to be an exception (for whatever reason...and mostly only in terms of action economy), but that doesn't change the basic design goal.

Also, cantrips are way worse than even the first version of Fire Ray. They start without an Ability Mod, get it at 3rd, and go up 1dX every two spell levels (capping at 4dX + Ability). even before this, Fire Ray did notably more damage than that. It's now easily on par with actual spells.


Megistone wrote:

I wonder what the design idea was behind removing extra languages (except one).

It would be a minor boon to have them back, but a boon nonetheless.

Yeah, same with 5th Ed, during the playtest, you got a number of additional languages = your Int modifier, but upon release, they dropped it; lame, I simply ported it back in.


Evilgm wrote:
You can be a charismatic jerk. The fact that people put up with him despite first impressions is due to his charismatic personality.

Plus his ginormous magical power, and the fact for some of those people he's the only person who can and will help them, or who had helped them.

No, I'm not sure I'd call Dresden high charisma. Bob would laugh at you if you did.


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Charisma is force of personality so it could also you being very scary. Batman: high charisma. The guy is Scary AF.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Charisma is force of personality so it could also you being very scary. Batman: high charisma. The guy is Scary AF.

Yes, it would be nice if that (force of personality) was incorporated into saving throws or something (like possession, mental domination, etc).


I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.

Liberty's Edge

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avr wrote:
Evilgm wrote:
You can be a charismatic jerk. The fact that people put up with him despite first impressions is due to his charismatic personality.

Plus his ginormous magical power, and the fact for some of those people he's the only person who can and will help them, or who had helped them.

No, I'm not sure I'd call Dresden high charisma. Bob would laugh at you if you did.

Harry Dresden has successfully intimidated people who could kill him with their eyes closed, and pulled cons on millennia old beings who basically lie for a living.

In PF2 terms, he's an excellent example of what someone with high Charisma (for Deception and Intimidate) but Untrained Diplomacy looks like.

The only part of Charisma he's mediocre at is being likable, and even there he's mediocre rather than actively bad (new people like him upon occasion, and his friends are very loyal to him for the most part).


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I'm very happy that any stat is important.

In PF1 some stats were not important and usually, over the main stat, the people incremented dex, con and wis, there wasn't the need to upgrade the others.

Now:
Strenght in important for damages;
Intelligence for the ability;
Charisma for the things mentioned above.

So you can shift the character with the four increments where you prefer, taking the advantages, but also disadvantages from own choices.


Mark Seifter wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
4. Intelligence deals with all lore skills.

This is a good point in Intelligence's favor that I shouldn't underestimate either. Before the -4 untrained update, the wizard and alchemist were rocking the Influence system in War for the Crown as much or more than the Cha characters because they could roll obscure lores untrained that were the best skill for any given NPC (much lower DC), take a -2, and still be excellent at it (compared to using a harder skill anyway). With the -4 now, multiclassing bard for Bardic Lore could still be a powerful move for an "Int Influencer."

As for Strength defenses, we had an initial build idea that called for basically a Might save (handling all the knocked prone and combat maneuvers that got moved to Fort saves). The problem with using Athletics as a direct defense, especially with the change to -4, is that the other saves travel together, both in terms of trained or better and the armor potency rune improving them, so PCs that need to defend with their Athletics DC get wrecked unless they raise Athletics as a new "mandatory" skill (this I know because I tried it after we put a kibosh on the Might save idea, and that happened even with -2). Having saves based on all 6 ability scores was also on the early drawing board in terms of having each stat matter in different circumstances (Cha for mind-affecting, Wis for curses and soul-affecting, Int for illusions which wound up getting Perception instead, Str for might-based and combat maneuver stuff and taking Fort stuff that isn't about health, and Dex and Con the same). But of course, that is a pretty big departure (and 5e wound up doing something very very similar too).

I'm running an AP with a military genius monster, and I realized that her Diadem of Intellect is actually an amazing get, even for a party with no Intelligence based classes. (At least until other potent items become available.) Taking the crafting fighter from 10 intelligence to 18 is huge, and training in 4 more skills and a +3 to Recall Knowledge... Pick the four magic skills and he's suddenly gained a +11 to all of them. Yowza!


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.

So, Cha should be used for spell attacks, and Wis for saves?


Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.
So, Cha should be used for spell attacks, and Wis for saves?

Actually I kind of like that. but it might be a bit of needles complication. It kind of reminds me of the 1st edition D&D psionics rules however.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.
So, Cha should be used for spell attacks, and Wis for saves?
Actually I kind of like that. but it might be a bit of needles complication. It kind of reminds me of the 1st edition D&D psionics rules however.

Ha, I actually took the time to figure those out, back in the day; Attack Mode B vs. Defence D and all that. The original Id insinuation, Intellect Fortress, etc, classic.


Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.
So, Cha should be used for spell attacks, and Wis for saves?
Actually I kind of like that. but it might be a bit of needles complication. It kind of reminds me of the 1st edition D&D psionics rules however.
Ha, I actually took the time to figure those out, back in the day; Attack Mode B vs. Defence D and all that. The original Id insinuation, Intellect Fortress, etc, classic.

Yeah it was complex for sure. Did you ever try the 3.0 rules for it? better but still not easy.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I look at it more like a hammer then a shield. Wisdom being the shield.
So, Cha should be used for spell attacks, and Wis for saves?
Actually I kind of like that. but it might be a bit of needles complication. It kind of reminds me of the 1st edition D&D psionics rules however.
Ha, I actually took the time to figure those out, back in the day; Attack Mode B vs. Defence D and all that. The original Id insinuation, Intellect Fortress, etc, classic.
Yeah it was complex for sure. Did you ever try the 3.0 rules for it? better but still not easy.

I did, and liked that the Psion was MAD, before they went with just Int. The 2nd Ed AD&D Psionic Handbook has some gems in it.

Liberty's Edge

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
avr wrote:
Evilgm wrote:
You can be a charismatic jerk. The fact that people put up with him despite first impressions is due to his charismatic personality.

Plus his ginormous magical power, and the fact for some of those people he's the only person who can and will help them, or who had helped them.

No, I'm not sure I'd call Dresden high charisma. Bob would laugh at you if you did.

Harry Dresden has successfully intimidated people who could kill him with their eyes closed, and pulled cons on millennia old beings who basically lie for a living.

In PF2 terms, he's an excellent example of what someone with high Charisma (for Deception and Intimidate) but Untrained Diplomacy looks like.

The only part of Charisma he's mediocre at is being likable, and even there he's mediocre rather than actively bad (new people like him upon occasion, and his friends are very loyal to him for the most part).

I do not know Dresden, but this reminded me A LOT of John Constantine. Maybe he took Inept at Diplomacy :-D

Houserule : Inept is something like Untrained but worse because no full level to the roll ;-)

Liberty's Edge

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On the overall topic, I think PF2 should completely avoid SAD but that PCs with one or two low stats should stay viable and enjoyable to play, whatever those stats are


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The Raven Black wrote:


I do not know Dresden, but this reminded me A LOT of John Constantine. Maybe he took Inept at Diplomacy :-D

Houserule : Inept is something like Untrained but worse because no full level to the roll ;-)

You need to read the Dresden Files, not watch the TV series. Harry Dresden is a wizard in Chigago, the only one listed in the yellow pages, who is a Private Investigator. He is charismatic enough that people will go on the line for him, but he makes lots of bad decisions which gives drama.

BTW, Dresden Files is a RPG, based on the Fate System, which does reward bad choices, because it's what your character would do, or get involved with.

Liberty's Edge

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Ideas to keep STR important :

DEX + STR to damage rather than DEX instead of STR

STR modifier affects your Speed, or maybe Athletics modifier (without +lvl) affects your Speed

In addition to the STR lowers ACP mentioned above

BTW, why measure Speed in ft rather than in Squares ? Would be much simpler as Speed is always a multiple of 5ft because squares are 5ft.

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The Raven Black wrote:
BTW, why measure Speed in ft rather than in Squares ? Would be much simpler as Speed is always a multiple of 5ft because squares are 5ft.

A lot of people find that overly 'gamey' and thus unpleasant and damaging to their verisimilitude. That's pretty much the whole reason, but it's a fairly good one.

It would also make diagonal movement weirder seeming, IMO.


In order to make the dump stats (Str/Int) matter you need a system where people HAVE TO interact with them.

Dex = Reflex Saves/AC
Con = Con Saves/HP
Wis = Will Save/Perception
Cha = Focus? (I still say this is a nerf to charisma casters)

Notice what 2 things nobody has to interact with?

Str = Bulk (can be circumvented)
Int = Skills (I think this is higher value than others it seems)

So we need some way to make Str something others have to interact with.

Sadly, I don't have a way to do this. I wish I did.

-----

One possible method:

Impact
A combat maneuver that has weapon damage type dependent effects. On a successful attack roll vs 10+Target's Level+Strength Modifier the effect listed for the damage type is applied. This is effected by MAP. This cannot be made with a weapon or attack that uses Dexterity to calculate attack bonus

Slash = Target is Slowed 1 until the end of the attacker's next turn. On a Critical Success they also take 1d6 bleed damage.

Pierce = Target is Slowed 1 until the end of the attacker's next turn. On a critical hit they are also at -2 to attack rolls until the end of the attacker's next turn.

Bludgeon = Target is Slowed 1 until the end of the attacker's next turn. On a Critical Success they are knocked prone.

-----


It isn't too late to introduce the strength-based caster. I am pretty sure a fireball created when you throw a gnome dipped in guano at the enemies should be worth way more damage than just a regular ball o' guano fireball. Also seems like a perfect place for a rune caster--the harder you chisel the runes on a piece of metal, the stronger the magic...


Mechagamera wrote:
It isn't too late to introduce the strength-based caster. I am pretty sure a fireball created when you throw a gnome dipped in guano at the enemies should be worth way more damage than just a regular ball o' guano fireball. Also seems like a perfect place for a rune caster--the harder you chisel the runes on a piece of metal, the stronger the magic...

Bring back CON casters.

Liberty's Edge

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MerlinCross wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
It isn't too late to introduce the strength-based caster. I am pretty sure a fireball created when you throw a gnome dipped in guano at the enemies should be worth way more damage than just a regular ball o' guano fireball. Also seems like a perfect place for a rune caster--the harder you chisel the runes on a piece of metal, the stronger the magic...
Bring back CON casters.

Not sure how that will strenghten the role of STR ;-)


I mean, there is that str-based kineticist archetype where instead of putting strain on your own body to fuel your stuff, you drain the life force indiscriminately from everything around you...

So we can do both.

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