Paizo stream: Resonance, Focus, Items and (!) Class Powers.


Magic Items

1 to 50 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

14 people marked this as a favorite.

New stream is out, here's the summary:

On the topic of Resonance:
-Resonance will be restricted to certain worn item (flat amount of 10).
-Focus will combine the current spell point pools and the consumable-resonance into one (Cha based, read ahead)
-You can use Focus either to use your class powers or to supercharge consumables/items.
-Active items do not cost Resonance and have daily charges, but can be overused with Focus to gain additional uses or effects
-Other benefits could be additional duration, wider area, extra effects, higher damage/healing and so on
-Each Ancestry gets one baseline Focus point (Gnomes get 2) plus their Charisma, plus possible bonuses from class features (such as Wizard's Arcane Bond).
-Alchemists are decoupled from Resonance / Focus and instead get a number of reagents based on lv+int with which they can use their features.
-Wands will become cheaper than having multiple scrolls, but is limited to 1/day. Spending Focus on the wand overclocks it to free usage for the day (up to its regular maximum charges).
-Staves allow you to spend Focus on them at the start of the day (sounds like a slip, possibly Resonance) and allow you to cast their spells with either Focus or your own Spell Slot (effectively adding spontaneous casting to your character). Sounds like the limit on Staves has been removed.
-Focus Activation Action is going to be renamed, with a lot of secondary changes to item activation actions.
-Possible Increases to Focus from feats, certainly not per level.
-Powers are going to be strengthened and particularly are going to scale better (example: Fire Ray scaling has been doubled).
.
.
Other interesting bits:
-"did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?"
"We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular."
.
-"Question: Please explain like im a 5 year old how dispel magic works."
[starts at 00.51 and ends at 00.53. It's a great explanation but I'm not writing it down. An actual 5yo next to a chat user seems to have understood it.]
From the Surveys, Dispel rules were really appreciated but also considered hard to understand.
.
.
Adventure module with the changes and new items (Raiders of Shrieking Peak) is expected this Monday.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

All very interesting. It seems a bit more complex for sure. They did use my idea of race adding some res which is now focus.

The most interesting change I think is that wands are 1/day but you can use focus for more. hmm I wonder if this means I can buy multiple wands and use them all once. I guess that's not much different from buying a ton of scrolls however.


Ediwir wrote:

(...)

Other interesting bits:
-"did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?"
"We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular."

(...)

Umm, I must be getting old, my English reading comprehension is failing me...

What does that mean? Is it that the playtesters were frustrated with magic item damage dependency, or the opposite (wants the dependency to stay)?


That bit was copypasted straight from the chat, where some dcs were picking up stray questions.
It seems like the idea of removing +1 weapons and adding damage dice from character level/proficiencies was not very well received in the surveys. So, probably won’t happen and we’ll keep mandatory items.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Glad someone posted this. I watched it last night but had other things going on, so didn't feel comfortable posting a summary that might be wrong. Surprised so few replies, as, at least as described, this seems to resolve a significant issue for 2E.

Kind of surprised not more replies though.


12 people marked this as a favorite.
Ediwir wrote:

That bit was copypasted straight from the chat, where some dcs were picking up stray questions.

It seems like the idea of removing +1 weapons and adding damage dice from character level/proficiencies was not very well received in the surveys. So, probably won’t happen and we’ll keep mandatory items.

People that think tying damage die to magical weapons is a good ideas didn't think through what are the ramifications of it. Martial characters will only have one level-appropriated weapon and every other back up weapon will simply be way too weak to be even a terrible option. Imagine not having option to change your weapon damage type just because your backup is so far behind the curve that doesn't matter if it's supposed to be more effective because the lack of dmg die is not enough to warrant a change. This is purely mechanic.

But imagine a world where all martial characters are just people with good weapons and some mundane skill? They are just regular fighters without their magical sticks. It kinda take away the idea of being a legendary martial character with unparalleled skill and beyond human capabilities.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

So, Monks care about Cha now instead of Wis since that powers their ki abilities. Kinda, OK with that I guess. I hope the ki abilities get really juiced up since they need to compete with other focus uses.

Similarly, Cha is super useful for clerics since they double dip for channel and spell points (err focus points). Kinda hope they just scrap channel at this point (or somehow fold it into focus use). Its just not super needed in a world with Treat Wounds.

I like the direction of collapsing all these metacurrencies. The game doesnt need all these competing widgets.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Data Lore wrote:
So, Monks care about Cha now instead of Wis since that powers their ki abilities.

I feel like that's super weird. I know we can't add two stats to one roll, since that breaks the math, but it seems like using two stats to determine the size of a pool would be fine.

Like now it seems like you can't play a super grumpy storm druid and be able to use your order power, unless the thing that previously gave you spell points adds the text "add your Wisdom Modifier to your focus pool."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ediwir wrote:
New stream is out, here's the summary

Thanks for the summary! I tried to watch it but also preparing for a session (which also meant cleaning up the house) so I barely caught most of it.

Ediwir wrote:
-Resonance will be restricted to certain worn item (flat amount of 10).

Not sure why they even call it Resonance at this point. Just say everyone has 10 magical item slots. Remove a layer of complication.

Ediwir wrote:
-Focus will combine the current spell point pools and the consumable-resonance into one (Cha based, read ahead)

Thank goodness that they're ditching the name "Spell Points." I'm a big fan of moving to a more universal/less confusing name.

Also - haha - for the Microsoft PowerPoints joke. Poor Dreamscarred Press.

Ediwir wrote:
-You can use Focus either to use your class powers or to supercharge consumables/items.

Not a fan of supercharging consumables. I could get behind supercharging worn items but consumables seems like a ton more reference bloat.

Ediwir wrote:
-Active items do not cost Resonance and have daily charges, but can be overused with Focus to gain additional uses or effects

Ugh. Not a fan of tracking daily charges. That was a thing I liked about Resonance.

Ediwir wrote:
-Other benefits could be additional duration, wider area, extra effects, higher damage/healing and so on

Hmm.

Ediwir wrote:
-Each Ancestry gets one baseline Focus point (Gnomes get 2) plus their Charisma, plus possible bonuses from class features (such as Wizard's Arcane Bond).

Man, they are really loving on Gnomes lately.

Ediwir wrote:
-Alchemists are decoupled from Resonance / Focus and instead get a number of reagents based on lv+int with which they can use their features.

Hmm. I'll ask our group's Alchemist what he thinks. He's been loving it as is (which is surprising based on survey/forum feedback I've seen).

Ediwir wrote:
-Wands will become cheaper than having multiple scrolls, but is limited to 1/day. Spending Focus on the wand overclocks it to free usage for the day (up to its regular maximum charges).

...meh. I don't like more 1/day tracking. I'm fine with the spending focus bit.

Ediwir wrote:
-Staves allow you to spend Focus on them at the start of the day (sounds like a slip, possibly Resonance) and allow you to cast their spells with either Focus or your own Spell Slot (effectively adding spontaneous casting to your character). Sounds like the limit on Staves has been removed.

I like this change.

Ediwir wrote:
-Possible Increases to Focus from feats, certainly not per level.

I'm fine with that.

Ediwir wrote:
-Powers are going to be strengthened and particularly are going to scale better (example: Fire Ray scaling has been doubled).
Another good change.

Again they ignored the question about Oracle and Sorcerer overlap.


Cabbage:
Ya, cha for ki is a little weird. Its definately more Bruce Lee and less Kwai Chang Caine. But, there is room for Cha based ki in monk tropes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
So, Monks care about Cha now instead of Wis since that powers their ki abilities.
I feel like that's super weird. I know we can't add two stats to one roll, since that breaks the math, but it seems like using two stats to determine the size of a pool would be fine.

I know that a goal seems to be moving away from CHA being a safe dump stat but I'm a fan of Focus being based on the Class Key Ability. That or CHA+Key Ability.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
The Once and Future Kai wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
So, Monks care about Cha now instead of Wis since that powers their ki abilities.
I feel like that's super weird. I know we can't add two stats to one roll, since that breaks the math, but it seems like using two stats to determine the size of a pool would be fine.
I know that a goal seems to be moving away from CHA being a safe dump stat but I'm a fan of Focus being based on the Class Key Ability. That or CHA+Key Ability.

It feels like "it's just charisma if you have no class powers which would have given you a spell point poll" and "it's charisma + something else" if you would have had spell points, but the concern would be "whither Paladins" since we don't want to add Cha twice.

But it feels wrong for Monks to get so little out of Wisdom.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Ediwir wrote:

On the topic of Resonance:

-Resonance will be restricted to certain worn item (flat amount of 10).
Cool.
Quote:
-Focus will combine the current spell point pools and the consumable-resonance into one (Cha based, read ahead)
Cool.
Quote:
-You can use Focus either to use your class powers or to supercharge consumables/items.
Hmm...
Quote:
-Active items do not cost Resonance and have daily charges, but can be overused with Focus to gain additional uses or effects
Cool.
Quote:
-Other benefits could be additional duration, wider area, extra effects, higher damage/healing and so on
Very cool.
Quote:
-Each Ancestry gets one baseline Focus point (Gnomes get 2) plus their Charisma, plus possible bonuses from class features (such as Wizard's Arcane Bond).
Cool.
Quote:
-Alchemists are decoupled from Resonance / Focus and instead get a number of reagents based on lv+int with which they can use their features.
Awesome.
Quote:
-Wands will become cheaper than having multiple scrolls, but is limited to 1/day. Spending Focus on the wand overclocks it to free usage for the day (up to its regular maximum charges).
Hmm...
Quote:
-Staves allow you to spend Focus on them at the start of the day (sounds like a slip, possibly Resonance) and allow you to cast their spells with either Focus or your own Spell Slot (effectively adding spontaneous casting to your character). Sounds like the limit on Staves has been removed.
Good.
Quote:
-Focus Activation Action is going to be renamed, with a lot of secondary changes to item activation actions.
GOOD! GET THE BACK TO THE SHADOWS OPERATE ACTIVATION ACTION!
Quote:
-Possible Increases to Focus from feats, certainly not per level.
Cool.
Quote:
-Powers are going to be strengthened and particularly are going to scale better (example: Fire Ray scaling has been doubled).
Cool.
Quote:

-"did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?"

"We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular."

Interesting.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
But it feels wrong for Monks to get so little out of Wisdom.

Agreed.

Jason and Logan were also acting as the Rogue's Gallery in the Twitch stream comments. Here are some of them (is there a way to download a chat log from Twitch? It's hard to track).

Quote:
JasonBulmahn:This is why I wanted to go to 2 meter squares... that way diagonals were 3
Quote:
loganbonner:tibbydapug: We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular.
Quote:

JasonBulmahn:Hex maps are a nonstarter.. despite the fact that is solves a lot of the counting problems

JasonBulmahn:(maps become too much of a mess)

Quote:
JasonBulmahn:@Malachi_Constant If I made all my design decisions based on what works best when drunk, this would be a VERY different game... :)
Quote:

sebastianhirsch:Interresting, I think I remember reading that suggestion a suggestion that sounds like this on the forums, nice to see them adapt forum sugestion

JasonBulmahn:@sebastianhirsch, you would be surprised how often we consider ideas from the playtest boards. Often time we go in different directions, but there are some inspirations

Quote:

slit518:Spell point currencies, money currencies, hit point currencies, focus currencies, balance currencies, etc currencies!

JasonBulmahn:@slit518 that is always a concern, but we are trying to cut down the number of hidden currencies we had in P1 by being a bit more explicit with our design

Quote:

kennethmcmillan:focus, you stare intently at the potion as you drink it

@kennethmcmillan Yes, and it helps you Focus if you glue googly eyes to the item so you can stare deep into its eyes.

Quote:

elpoireaunaute:@JasonBulmahn is there any consideration about making combat styles archetypes or general feats?

JasonBulmahn:@elpoireaunaute Combat Style archetypes... yes.. not so much as general feats, we dont want those feats to compete with complex combat options

Quote:

JasonBulmahn:I think I am going to make Mark do an entire series of "explain pathfinder to 5 year olds"

loganbonner:Just record him while he talks to us in design meetings.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Ediwir wrote:
-Active items do not cost Resonance and have daily charges, but can be overused with Focus to gain additional uses or effects

Noooo! One of my favorite concepts behind Resonance was killing the idea of having 20 separate pools of stuff to track for items.

Ediwir wrote:
-Powers are going to be strengthened and particularly are going to scale better (example: Fire Ray scaling has been doubled).

Please, please let this be more than a token increase. I want to see powers that players can be excited about and look forward to getting/using.

Ediwir wrote:

Other interesting bits:

-"did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?"
"We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular."

Bull. "Inherent Martial Ability" isn't explicit enough for many to think about how extra dice are based on magic weapons rather than the character, many will just think about how their character is performing in the campaign compared to casters and leave it at that. I know my group would likely respond like this, but would all be on the side of removing extra dice from magic weapons and moving more towards ABP if it was specifically asked (we haven't done these surveys yet as we're behind as a group).

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait...

So you're saying Monks now have to split their Points between Str/Dex/Wis/Cha now?

Can we PLEASE give the Monk at least ONE break? I'll hold onto my frustration until I see the actual update, but if this works the way it's being discussed then I don't see how Monk can be considered viable at ALL anymore if their Ki points are based off Cha.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel like this is a great sounding change! It’s a step in the right direction but it’s not perfect. My biggest gripe is still tracking charges/uses on items.

Instead of a magic item having a 1/day free activation you have to track, and then you spend Focus to activate any additional time, why not just increase the Focus pool size slightly and make all activations require 1 Focus? Less tracking! No more if/then statements!

And you can drop the “Extra 1 Focus” on a staff. Just invest in the staff and bam, you can use it to cast those spells with a focus or slots your choice. Simple and powerful!

Because I still feel like a player could feel like he has to find 10 1/day magic items to get the most free magic abilities they can.

But all that said I think this system sounds like a huge improvement and I look forward to trying it out.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Themetricsystem wrote:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait...

So you're saying Monks now have to split their Points between Str/Dex/Wis/Cha now?

Can we PLEASE give the Monk at least ONE break? I'll hold onto my frustration until I see the actual update, but if this works the way it's being discussed then I don't see how Monk can be considered viable at ALL anymore if their Ki points are based off Cha.

Ya, it kinda sucks for monks unless they make Cha their ability mod for powers. Then they can ditch Wis at least.

Also, monks are totally viable without power use. No need for hyperbole. They do lose some of their flair and a neat build path though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charon Onozuka wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
-Active items do not cost Resonance and have daily charges, but can be overused with Focus to gain additional uses or effects

Noooo! One of my favorite concepts behind Resonance was killing the idea of having 20 separate pools of stuff to track for items.

Technically we get a reduction of pools though, since spell points are now combined with resonance for Focus. "Resonance" as it will exist is just the flat ten slots you get for magical items. You won't really have to track Resonance than.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If ancient's blood hits resonance instead of focus, then (assuming you don't need unburdened to be functional) that seems like the optimal Dwarf heritage for a bunch of classes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Themetricsystem wrote:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait...

So you're saying Monks now have to split their Points between Str/Dex/Wis/Cha now?

Can we PLEASE give the Monk at least ONE break? I'll hold onto my frustration until I see the actual update, but if this works the way it's being discussed then I don't see how Monk can be considered viable at ALL anymore if their Ki points are based off Cha.

we don't even know how the focus pools work.

we do know that classes that used spell pools (like ki powers) will get bonus points based on the powers themselves.

so, it can equally be something like:

you can use ki powers like before, but now you have the added bonus that if you raise Cha you get even more focus.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dunno, less magic items seems a hefty price to pay for me as far as Ancient's Blood goes. Focus loss is a little less of a sting, in my estimation.

Frankly, not sure if I would ever go Dwarf with that hit to Cha.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Perhaps Monks will have a class feature similar to Studied Resonance that allows them to key their focus points off Wisdom. If it's optional, Dragon Style adherents could stick with Charisma to give their intimidation-based feat more punchkick.

I'm disappointed to hear the survey responses pointed toward mandatory magic weapons rather than inherent damage dice growth. However, I can understand the desire for magic weapons to be powerful. As much as I dislike in theory the connection between items and effectiveness in combat and with skills, it does make finding treasure and shopping more fun.

People often say it's possible to keep item acquisition fun by making magic items interesting, but that often comes at the cost of complexity in the form of item-specific actions, situational bonuses, and charges. Although I'm only building Level 9 characters, I'm already at a point where I want to ignore the one-a-day powers attached to certain items, such as the Phylactery of Faithfulness's augury effect, and the situational bonuses attached to others, such as the Staff of Evocation's +2 circumstance bonus to identifying evocation magic. If all items had such bonuses, using them (and creating comprehensive character sheets) would be a headache.

Having said that, I hope the core books ship with official variants that provide the expected bonuses not through magic items but through leveling or gold-gated training. That wouldn't help in organized play, which is where I'm most likely to play. But it would make running the game easier on GMs who like low-magic settings, use a slow format such as play-by-post, or want to tell stories where handing out magic items wouldn't make sense (such as a poor town being invaded by man-eating ants or an enemy nation that takes a 'quantity over quality' approach to equipping its troops). Such a system might also help players understand the bonuses the base system expects them to get through items at specific levels.


Themetricsystem wrote:

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait...

So you're saying Monks now have to split their Points between Str/Dex/Wis/Cha now?

Can we PLEASE give the Monk at least ONE break? I'll hold onto my frustration until I see the actual update, but if this works the way it's being discussed then I don't see how Monk can be considered viable at ALL anymore if their Ki points are based off Cha.

Yeah non ki monks are just Dex or Str, with this update ki power monks might* be just unusable. I hope it's something like your focus points are CHA+class features and your Wis nets you X uses of class features at least.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

I really really like the idea of folding Focus and Spell Points together, but I sincerely hope that spellcasters get to change the stat. Wis for monks, int for wizards, yadda yadda.

Not a fan of per day charges in the slightest, but we'll see how it plays out.


Elleth wrote:

I really really like the idea of folding Focus and Spell Points together, but I sincerely hope that spellcasters get to change the stat. Wis for monks, int for wizards, yadda yadda.

Not a fan of per day charges in the slightest, but we'll see how it plays out.

That would get back to square 1 and make Cha a dump stat. So, I doubt they would do that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Data Lore wrote:
Elleth wrote:

I really really like the idea of folding Focus and Spell Points together, but I sincerely hope that spellcasters get to change the stat. Wis for monks, int for wizards, yadda yadda.

Not a fan of per day charges in the slightest, but we'll see how it plays out.

That would get back to square 1 and make Cha a dump stat. So, I doubt they would do that.

i think it will work a bit like it does now:

i.e. when you get a new power, you will also add points into your total Focus pool. With maybe a few extra points for the "first unlock" power like now.

so, as an example, maybe gaining a Ki strike will now grant 2 Focus points. Alongside with the original 1+Cha from your race, you'll start with 3 points, which is the equivalent of a 16wis monk in the current version.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem is that the Monk's spell mod is wis based. So, if he wants to add spell mod to wholeness of body, stunning fist dc, etc etc, he needs to pump wis. But, if wants more focus points, he now must pump cha.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I assume or at least hope that certain classes (*cough monk cough*) would get a class ability under this revision to let them use a different ability score (*cough Wisdom cough*) for Focus if it's higher than their Cha.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Data Lore wrote:
The problem is that the Monk's spell mod is wis based. So, if he wants to add spell mod to wholeness of body, stunning fist dc, etc etc, he needs to pump wis. But, if wants more focus points, he now must pump cha.

keep in mind that they said that they are boosting Powers.

so, while he may have less charges of wholeness, maybe now it will be stronger.

so, his overall healing remains the same, but if he wants now, there's also the option to also boost Cha for even more healing compared to what he used to have.

At this point, it's only purely speculation, because it's not only the spell pool that's getting changed, but also the powers that feed from it.

so i say we just wait a few days, and see the actual mechanics and effects.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I could see something like Monks, and only monks, getting Cha + Wis for focus. That way a monk that invests in either (or both) Cha or Wis is rewarded. Monks getting just plain more focus than anyone else fits the concept too, I think.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the issue is less "monks are nerfed because they can't use wholeness as much" but more "thematically monks are supposed to be wise- you go to the monastery and come out wiser from the process." Charisma monks certainly can exist but these are a flavor rather than the default.

Previously monks had been given mechanical incentives to boost wisdom (beyond the reason, say, rogues have to boost wisdom) in that it added to both their Armor class and determined their mystical acumen. PF2 removed the "wis-to-AC" thing so the only reason to increase Wis on a Monk (that wouldn't apply to any other character who's going to make fort saves or roll perception) was that it determines your spell points.

But now if it doesn't do that, we've stripped all mechanical importance for wisdom on a class which is supposed to be wise, which is a problem. Even if it doesn't apply to focus, and doesn't add to AC we need *some* kind of mechanical emphasis on Wisdom for the monk and "it adds to your wholeness of body rolls" isn't enough.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I haven't gottten to the Part # that has the martial ability thingy question.

How was/is that worded? because the wording in that quote made me think the question likely wasn't very clear on the "would you rather have extra dice/etc based on your character instead of the item" concept.


Zwordsman wrote:
How was/is that worded? because the wording in that quote made me think the question likely wasn't very clear on the "would you rather have extra dice/etc based on your character instead of the item" concept.

Logan said it in the chat around 30 minutes.

Quote:

tibbydapug:did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?

loganbonner:tibbydapug: We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Charon Onozuka wrote:
Ediwir wrote:

Other interesting bits:

-"did you see survey data about decoupling extra dice from magic item bonus to be based on character level?"
"We asked about "inherent martial ability," rather than level per se. But if you consider that close enough, we do. It was... not popular."
[me: ahem] "Inherent Martial Ability" isn't explicit enough for many to think about how extra dice are based on magic weapons rather than the character, many will just think about how their character is performing in the campaign compared to casters and leave it at that.

When I read this here, I immediately thought: "I don't remember saying anything against damage dies being character-dependent and not specific-weapon-dependent". I mean, I recently made post here about removing bonus dice from weapon and moving to Level/Proficiency (albeit the die type (d6 d8 etc) would match the weapon you're wielding). But I have the feeling I may have somehow been lead to vote for option which they are now interpreting against that.

If somebody can repost the specific survey question that probably would be illuminating, but just based on my own experience I would tend to think many people may not have answered this question with specific intent re: weapon damage dice. For one, the issues of weapon attack bonus & damage dice are distinct. You don't have to be against magic weapons being powerful & significant to support the bonus damage die portion moving to character side, after all 3.x/P1E magic weapons were powerful & important without such massive impact re: damage die.

I agree with Onozuka's point re: secondary weapons, the math is tight enough that just missing the +X attack bonus (never mind properties & runes) will itself be noticeable, but also multiplying that by dropping the bonus dice just drops effectiveness to the floor... This on top of you likely having lower proficiency in off-weapon and having less special feat abilities outside main weapon.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

It sounds like Alchemist is dropping it's double-usage Resonance approach for something like Points?
I think the first part is good, both mechanically and conceptually (re: Alchemy/ magic distinction),
but I honestly have been hoping they just move to "spell slot" model for Alchemy effects,
referencing "spell list" like casters do just feels easier to actually use.

Unfortunately and ironically, it sounds like everybody else with magic powers is being
moved to old Alchemist "double-usage Resonance" model, which is disappointing to say least.
I mean, "worn items" being broken out of Resonance (with independent "flat" 10 limit) helps pragmatically,
but I still don't like that magic users now have to balance own magic against using magic items.

Now, I'm not clear on stat situation, it sounds like appropriate magic stats could be added on top
of normal (CHA)Resonance, and if that's case for Wizards/INT and Druids/WIS, Sorcerors may double dip CHA.
(and Monk complaints would seem mollified if WIS would augment Resonance for them, being "Monk Magic" stat)
Given Power Feats increased Spell Points, I would guess they would also add to Resonance now?
But while that would help the caster classes, I feel it too imbalances magic usage for non-casters.
All that give casters large ability to use many magic items, while non-casters lack that flexibility.

I feel like just having separate Power pool distinct from Resonance is the way to go.
I opposed joint pool for Alchemist, and I oppose it for everybody else.
EDIT: Joint pool with Resonance actually makes sense for Occultist (on top of spell slots).
I think that should be specific Occultist thing, not forced on everybody, reducing uniqueness of such Occultist mechanic.


Quandary wrote:

It sounds like Alchemist is dropping it's double-usage Resonance approach for something like Points?

I think the first part is good, both mechanically and conceptually (re: Alchemy/ magic distinction),
but I honestly have been hoping they just move to "spell slot" model for Alchemy effects,
referencing "spell list" like casters do just feels easier to actually use.

Unfortunately and ironically, it sounds like everybody else with magic powers is being
moved to old Alchemist "double-usage Resonance" model, which is disappointing to say least.
I mean, "worn items" being broken out of Resonance (with independent "flat" 10 limit) helps pragmatically,
but I still don't like that magic users now have to balance own magic against using magic items.

Now, I'm not clear on stat situation, it sounds like appropriate magic stats could be added on top
of normal (CHA)Resonance, and if that's case for Wizards/INT and Druids/WIS, Sorcerors may double dip CHA.
(and Monk complaints would seem mollified if WIS would augment Resonance for them, being "Monk Magic" stat)
Given Power Feats increased Spell Points, I would guess they would also add to Resonance now?
But while that would help the caster classes, I feel it too imbalances magic usage for non-casters.
All that give casters large ability to use many magic items, while non-casters lack that flexibility.

I feel like just having separate Power pool distinct from Resonance is the way to go.
I opposed joint pool for Alchemist, and I oppose it for everybody else.
EDIT: Joint pool with Resonance actually makes sense for Occultist (on top of spell slots).
I think that should be specific Occultist thing, not forced on everybody, reducing uniqueness of such Occultist mechanic.

the Focus usage of spell powers doesn't make the rest of the casters even remotely like old Alchemist.

their spells and all of their other, MAIN, stuff don't need Focus.

just the extra powers, instead of spell pools have focus.

considering they said that the feats will grant some sort of focus bonus, we can only say that the "old" Spell pool= Base stat (4-7) is being changed to new Focus pool of 1+Cha+whatever the class gives

so, depending on that "whatever" it may be bad, a very slight nerf, neutral, or even a buff. All depending if that whatever is lower or higher than 4.

so it's not even close to Alchemist.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also... I was kind of surprised at Focus 'enhanced effect' applying to Alchemy, whose big theme is being NotMagic. Would Alchemists' own new Reagent Point Alchemy also be enhance-able via Focus Points? It would seem strange for general Alchemy to be enhanced by Focus, yet Alchemist class abilities be entirely unlinked to it, unlike magical caster classes (including Monks). Just feels like the NotMagic Alchemy concept is appearing difficult to adhere to closely, which makes me question it's fundamental basis... /shrug

On double-usage Resonance (items/powers), the stat-stacking (which seems the clear intent after I listened to stream) does certainly have good effects re: broad value of CHA for all classes, even while allowing ignoring CHA to also be legit and functional. (and CHA stacking, rather than replacement, was my 'minimal suggestion' re: original Resonance Alchemist)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ediwir wrote:
-Wands will become cheaper than having multiple scrolls, but is limited to 1/day. Spending Focus on the wand overclocks it to free usage for the day (up to its regular maximum charges).

My impression reading this is that it means that wands can now be used indefinitely over the course of a character's career. Only 1 time per individual day (unless you spend Focus), but theoretically 100 times over 100 days.

As in, no more "use a wand until it becomes a useless stick". Now, if you consider a magic wand to be an integral part of your image for your character, you can find one at low levels and still be using that same wand a dozen levels later.

Is that a correct understanding or not?


Data Lore wrote:
Similarly, Cha is super useful for clerics since they double dip for channel and spell points (err focus points). Kinda hope they just scrap channel at this point (or somehow fold it into focus use).

The most straightforward way to do that is to change Channel into a class feature that adds X focus and lets you spend focus to Heal. Same outcome except now you have one pool instead of two and CHA isn't double dipping.

Of course, the side effect of that is that almost every domain power will be useless when it's drawing from the same points as the one that let you cast Heal.

Quote:
Its just not super needed in a world with Treat Wounds.

When we did Sombrefell Hill, I wasn't given time to use Treat Wounds between most of the encounters. I used every spell slot except one (turned out we didn't need Remove Fear) and every channel. I spent the last fight at a door warding off the vampires with my holy symbol because I was completely tapped and that was the most useful thing I could do with a turn. Channel was absolutely needed.

As it stands right now, if you took Channel out and replaced it with nothing, I'd have so few spells and the effective need to make most of them Heal (considering it's power relative to most of the spell list), that I would feel like a one dimensional healbot and would stop playing 2e entirely.

Folding it into Focus probably makes sense, but if it just goes? No thanks. You don't get nearly enough spells right now.

Quote:
I like the direction of collapsing all these metacurrencies. The game doesnt need all these competing widgets.

For sure.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tectorman:
I do not believe so. From my understanding, the wand uses a charge every use regardless whether or not you expend focus to use it more than once per day.

If very clunky, imho. But the idea is likely to promote the use of higher level wands.


Tectorman wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
-Wands will become cheaper than having multiple scrolls, but is limited to 1/day. Spending Focus on the wand overclocks it to free usage for the day (up to its regular maximum charges).

My impression reading this is that it means that wands can now be used indefinitely over the course of a character's career. Only 1 time per individual day (unless you spend Focus), but theoretically 100 times over 100 days.

As in, no more "use a wand until it becomes a useless stick". Now, if you consider a magic wand to be an integral part of your image for your character, you can find one at low levels and still be using that same wand a dozen levels later.

Is that a correct understanding or not?

I'm not sure, because it still has "maximum charges". So it may still be a consumable, albeit one with a 1/day limit on top if you don't spend focus on it.

Or maybe it's not and more things are changing. What you described sounds pretty neat. Tracking both daily usage limits AND charges on the same item is lousy because of the double bookkeeping. But wands as 1/day items that you can use more by giving up focus? That would be interesting.

So you might not keep a level 1 Heal wand around forever because it'll get obsolete, but having a toolkit of wands for niche things you only occasionally need would be certainly a thing you could do.

Also, the staff change sounds great. Can't wait to see details on that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tectorman wrote:
My impression reading this is that it means that wands can now be used indefinitely over the course of a character's career.

I didn't get that impression from stream, it sounded like Mark was saying Focus now allowed an even better per-charge price discount vs scrolls, not that charges were removed entirely. Technically you could grab multiple Wands of same spell to avoid Focus cost to cast it more than 1/day, but that does start to eat into WBL allotment significantly.

Which reminds me that WBL per se doesn't exist any more, although it effectively still does via rules/table for New Character Treasure (which rules also suggest GMs use as comparison and adjust income for all PCs to match). IMHO, since this IS still ultimately intended to be the balance goal for ALL PCs (like WBL), it would be better to drop the "new character" framing for the "New Character Treasure" rules/table, and just call it appropriate WBL for all characters... Don't mess around with indirect framing, or depending on "Sometimes you might want to..." wording to understand the REAL role of rules, just say the treasure "income" rules are supposed to get you close to this WBL, but the WBL is what game is ultimately balanced around (and New Characters just directly provisioned via WBL is side issue to mention).


MMCJawa wrote:
Technically we get a reduction of pools though, since spell points are now combined with resonance for Focus. "Resonance" as it will exist is just the flat ten slots you get for magical items. You won't really have to track Resonance than.

Wouldn't you still have to spend Resonance to swap out worn items during the day? I get the impression this is still to stop the "collect bunches of cheap 1/day worn items" technique.


Tridus wrote:
The most straightforward way to do that is to change Channel into a class feature that adds X focus and lets you spend focus to Heal. Same outcome except now you have one pool instead of two and CHA isn't double dipping.

I wouldnt add any extra uses. Just Cha mod plus whatever feats you take that give extra focus.

Quote:
Of course, the side effect of that is that almost every domain power will be useless when it's drawing from the same points as the one that let you cast Heal.

Choices choices. Some, like the healing one, can just make channel heal more. Others I dunno. Either way, they have to redo these anyways and they said they would make them better.

Quote:
When we did Sombrefell Hill...

That kinda time crunch is not really typical and balancing healing capabilities around funky scenarios seems wrong to me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quandary wrote:
I didn't get that impression from stream, it sounded like Mark was saying Focus now allowed an even better per-charge price discount vs scrolls, not that charges were removed entirely. Technically you could grab multiple Wands of same spell to avoid Focus cost, but that does start to eat into WBL allotment significantly.

I sure hope charges go away. Tracking daily use and charges is unnecessary extra bookkeeping.

Maybe they'll get there once they see this in practice.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the issue is less "monks are nerfed because they can't use wholeness as much" but more "thematically monks are supposed to be wise- you go to the monastery and come out wiser from the process." Charisma monks certainly can exist but these are a flavor rather than the default.

Previously monks had been given mechanical incentives to boost wisdom (beyond the reason, say, rogues have to boost wisdom) in that it added to both their Armor class and determined their mystical acumen. PF2 removed the "wis-to-AC" thing so the only reason to increase Wis on a Monk (that wouldn't apply to any other character who's going to make fort saves or roll perception) was that it determines your spell points.

But now if it doesn't do that, we've stripped all mechanical importance for wisdom on a class which is supposed to be wise, which is a problem. Even if it doesn't apply to focus, and doesn't add to AC we need *some* kind of mechanical emphasis on Wisdom for the monk and "it adds to your wholeness of body rolls" isn't enough.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Mark specifically cited this opening build space to create a sensai type monk with a Wis/Cha focus who spams ki powers and gives advice. That implies that there will still be a good use for Wisdom.

We know that classes will grant bonus focus points, but we don't know the exact mechanism for doing so. Having it be Wis+Cha for monks, Int+Cha for wizards, etc seems like a decent guess. But we will probably have more information when the scenario drops tomorrow.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Data Lore wrote:
I wouldnt add any extra uses. Just Cha mod plus whatever feats you take that give extra focus.

That would be a pretty substantial nerf to what Clerics can do now.

Quote:
They have to change the powers anyway. That sounds like one that could give you a healing bonus when you channel. Easy fix.

Having to change them and having to change them to be competitive with one of the best spells Clerics have are two very different things, though.

Even then, you run the risk of people getting annoyed when their character dies because the Cleric player used their focus on something else instead of on the Heal that would have saved their character. A nice thing about having dedicated healing is you can actually use the rest of your abilities on other stuff.

Quote:
That kinda time crunch is not really typical and balancing healing capabilities around funky scenarios seems wrong to me.

eh. Could be a different table thing. In my regular campaigns in 1e and D&D, we rarely have tons of time to just sit around halfway through an adventure and spend 10 minutes ignored to do that. Any semi intelligent bad guy will not let you sit and recover like that unless you get to a place of safety first.

The idea that the whole dungeon will just grind to a halt for 10 minutes so we can use Treat Wounds after every encounter feels a whole lot like a video game and isn't something I've seen DMs do a lot of except in exploration type encounters.


Quandary wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
My impression reading this is that it means that wands can now be used indefinitely over the course of a character's career.

I didn't get that impression from stream, it sounded like Mark was saying Focus now allowed an even better per-charge price discount vs scrolls, not that charges were removed entirely. Technically you could grab multiple Wands of same spell to avoid Focus cost to cast it more than 1/day, but that does start to eat into WBL allotment significantly.

Which reminds me that WBL per se doesn't exist any more, although it effectively still does via rules/table for New Character Treasure (which rules also suggest GMs use as comparison and adjust income for all PCs to match). IMHO, since this IS still ultimately intended to be the balance goal for ALL PCs (like WBL), it would be better to drop the "new character" framing for the "New Character Treasure" rules/table, and just call it appropriate WBL for all characters... Don't mess around with indirect framing, or depending on "Sometimes you might want to..." wording to understand the REAL role of rules, just say the treasure rules are supposed to get you close to this WBL, but the WBL is what game is ultimately balanced around (and New Characters just directly provisioned via WBL is side issue to mention).

i think what he said was that:

they reduced price per charge (compared to scroll) because they put the limitation of 1/day (which has no focus cost).

you can alternatively spend focus to use it more than 1/day

so, they will have both a max charge and a daily cap, and you can circumvent the daily cap with focus. But they are the cheapest consumables due to that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tridus wrote:
That would be a pretty substantial nerf to what Clerics can do now.

Frankly, I think they need a bit of nerfing. Channel is, essentially, tons of extra heightened spell slots of a hyperuseful spell.

It is an overtly imbalanced ability and it makes clerics much better healers than anyone else.

1 to 50 of 110 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Playtest / Game Master Rules / Magic Items / Paizo stream: Resonance, Focus, Items and (!) Class Powers. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.