I cannot progress my character for Part 4 in any way I want to, should I just scrap it?


Doomsday Dawn Player Feedback


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I created an Angelic Sorcerer for Part 1 in the hopes that I could make it a functional healer (optimistically, to sparingly replace Clerics as de facto choices for parties), and as that part demonstrated (and as our future playtest parts with Clerics have yielded), that avenue is clearly not going to happen. I was hoping that with the higher levels (and now expanded options from 1.3 and maybe 1.4 could help too!) that having some actual feats to work with (having zero feats at 1st level really, really sucks) can make it at least work with what our party expectations are in relation to combats ahead.

However, with how I currently built it, and with the only options I have to make my character a powerful healer, it appears even making it work with the current set-up is impossible, and I have no way of retraining or selecting appropriate options to make this option work, which means any choice I have of making this character function in relation to the party dynamic is impossible, approaching the point where I might just throw something to stick and sit both this and the final part of the playtest sessions out, leaving the rest of the players to run it out and see if anything useful happens (I won't expect my GM to be lenient enough to let me completely retrain my character choices or create a whole new character to fill the adventuring gap). I will also be missing out on major plot points of the story, too, meaning I might as well read those parts of Doomsday Dawn myself just to witness the ending (though compared to actually experiencing it, being quite disappointed with what actually happened).

The sad thing is that this was meant to be a fairly flavorful character, since I was told that this character would participate in numerous parts of the playtest, so I created this character with the intent of it having lasting story value. (And the first part of this adventure synchronized quite well with this character!) But with the current state of options at my disposal (improved, but not viable), and lack of options to switch or recreate with, this character may as well be abandoned, and I only expect to be participating in two more parts of the playtest (5 and 6), testing out the viability of a late-game anti-Resonance Superstition Barbarian (Dwarf with 8 Charisma and all anti-Resonance options available), and GMing a mid-level adventure, simply because the main character I made for this playtest is so garbage and beyond help that it will just die out due to horrible building choices. (Fitting, as Pharasma would deem her little "Angel" to die for the sins of imperfection and vanity, only optimizers live!)

Paizo Employee Designer

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Given that so many years have passed, I think it would be reasonable for the GM to give free retraining of any of the basic retrain options and still call it the same character.

In my home playtests, I've given even more generous rebuilds than that with the updates because they can really change things.


It sounds that you would really like to be a part of these playtest sessions with this character, but what choices are you specifically looking for. That's a great (and difficult) part of the playtest, trying out ideas and seeing if they work.

What I'm seeing is that using an angelic sorcerer for healing is working for what you want right now (which I assume is being the party's sole source of healing). I guess the questions become:

1. Where do you feel that the sorcerer class or surrounding options didn't allow for your build?

2. What about your party dynamics makes this a difficult character to play?

3. If there was a change that you could make, what would it be?

Personally, I would hope that you keep going, but if you're not having fun, then that's valuable to know, too.

(Side note: I'd love to hear more about your character, it sounds like you have quite the story to share.)


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Ruzza wrote:

It sounds that you would really like to be a part of these playtest sessions with this character, but what choices are you specifically looking for. That's a great (and difficult) part of the playtest, trying out ideas and seeing if they work.

What I'm seeing is that using an angelic sorcerer for healing is working for what you want right now (which I assume is being the party's sole source of healing). I guess the questions become:

1. Where do you feel that the sorcerer class or surrounding options didn't allow for your build?

2. What about your party dynamics makes this a difficult character to play?

3. If there was a change that you could make, what would it be?

Personally, I would hope that you keep going, but if you're not having fun, then that's valuable to know, too.

(Side note: I'd love to hear more about your character, it sounds like you have quite the story to share.)

I can do the trial processing with the other adventures is the big thing though. The only other thing I"m really interested in seeing how it plays is the Barbarian in question above, and stress-testing the limitations on bare-bones Resonance in the higher levels (strangely, outside of 1st level, we haven't had Resonance run out).

1. Literally every single feat in my class choices clash against what role I want to perform, or if they don't, are vastly inferior to what I gain from multiclassing. I'll break it down as to why I'd never select any of these feats as an Angelic Sorcerer. (Put into spoiler for cutting down on wall of text.)

Spoiler:
-Counterspell requires further investment from other options just to actually use it, and they are options that I, as a Sorcerer, couldn't possibly be prepared against. BBEG using a Rare/Unique spell? No way in hell I'm able to stop that with my spellcasting. On top of that, with the risk that I cut down on my healing power just to do this, it becomes a major problem to invest in this.

-Dangerous Sorcery works on damage spells. I had zero damage spells at 1st level, and the Divine spell list has the absolute worst damaging spells in the game (by design, of course). In addition, I'm supposed to be a healer, not a damage dealer, and I'd rather invest in feats that make me heal better (which this does not).

-Familiars have so little utility for how weak and generic they are (I could actually get one with an Ancestry feat, but it's probably the last Ancestry feat I'd ever take for obvious reasons) that I cannot rationalize expending precious feats on it (remember, Sorcerers had the absolute fewest feats starting out compared to any other class before 1.3). Even if I did, every single master power applies only to prepared spellcasters. Being spontaneous, this feature does nothing to help out my spellcasting.

-Reach spell is largely pointless on a Divine Sorcerer. Being able to extend my Heal out to 60 feet for 3 actions isn't a great use of action economy, nor can I realistically expect to be put into those situations. (I might in the higher levels, but I shouldn't have to if any other class hasn't had to.)

-Widen spell is even worse, since all of my Spell slots are on Heal, which has very little need for modular adaptation. It actually doesn't work on that spell at all.

-Cantrip Expansion is probably one of the only feats that don't absolutely suck, but given my worst spell list choice and lack of healing options via cantrips (even if for good reason), this feat doesn't really seem worthwhile to helping my goal when my current cantrip choices are more than enough.

-Monsters with outrageous Perception scores and all kinds of crazy senses will easily see through any mirage a Conceal spell feat has to provide. It is a fairly solid PVP option, though, but even that can be ruined from metagaming. On top of that, I don't have good Deception or Stealth, so that won't work effectively either.

-Divine Evolution serves to give me one use of the Cleric's Channel Energy feature per day, and that's it. Better than nothing, but when multiclassing gives me a better option at this level, I'll pass.

-Magical Striker is arguably one of (if not) the only worthwhile feats a Sorcerer has. When characters can easily poach it through multiclassing, its cool or wow-factor goes away quite fast. On top of that, being an 8 Strength Gnome, my physical/combat capabilities are trash, even if I bother to try and shore it up (at the cost of Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom, I might add), means selecting this feat is actually a trap option for me. Did I also mention I'm not proficient in anything other than D6 weapons, making the effects of this feat significantly weaker than if I were to select it via multiclassing, as a Paladin, and wield a Greatsword or other D12 Weapon? Congratulations, when a feat like this is better on any other class than the one it was designed for, it begs the question of why I have said feat in the first place.

-Resilient Concentration is actually broken, since I cannot concentrate on a spell more than once at any given time, and it's impossible to bring multiples of such spells into being given that each cost at least 2 actions to cast, meaning I can at-best maintain 2 spells, but that means I cannot cast any other spell until either maintained spell ends. Moar traps, maybe if I had trapfinding as a feat or class feature, I'd have had the sense to realize how bad this class really was before I chose it.

-Steady Spellcasting, while it means well, is executed so poorly that it's likewise a trap feat. Having zero AC or armor proficiency, means I'm automatically going to be critically hit, and with how hard monsters hit these days, I'll be lucky to even survive long enough to cast a spell, much less actually succeed at my spell's concentration.

-Vicious Concentration seems cool, but it scales hardly at all. It also suffers a lot of the same failures and impossibilities that Resilient Concentration suffers, meaning it's nowhere near as cool or great as it should be. This class has more traps than an epic level dungeon.

-Blood Magic requires me to injure myself and suffer sustained damage just to give somebody temporary hit points for 1D6 + spell level whenever I cast a spell that affects them. While this might be a great way to help amplify my healing, if I go down my teammates have little to no way to bring me back up (as was evident in the Part 1 player death results). This is also worse than what other classes with healing have access to utilize, and they have more HP and AC than us. How exactly is this fair or flavorful to this class?

-Bloodline Resistance is a great buff to myself. But it does nothing to really aid my healing, doesn't stack with numerous (mundane) things that grant these bonuses, and actually isn't fair that I couldn't buff teammates with these benefits (as they should be getting hit and not me). I have this problem also with the initial Angelic Bloodline power; access to a personal uncommon spell to stem the unstoppable tide of AC/to-hit disparity.

-Overwhelming Spell is great for dealing with something you aren't exactly prepared for. However, it works with damaging spells. Divine Spells have practically zero damaging spells that need help with overcoming resistances, so once again, this feat does nothing for me.

-I get the ability to fly, and actually use my spell points on something! Too bad the duration makes it not worthwhile to use or pick up at my current level, and really only makes it so I can leave my party behind while they sit there and die, wondering why I flew away instead of staying to heal like I should have been doing.

-Quickened Casting, much like Divine Evolution, only works once per day. It cuts down the spellcasting time to be one action less. It's great, but it's far too infrequent to warrant spending a feat.

Compared to what options I can have with certain multiclassing choices, those feats outright do absolutely nothing that I, as a player, want to do. I'd even rather take General or Skill feats over these, they are seriously that bad.

2. I'm the only spellcaster on our team, or one who can actually use healing spells. The original party is Fighter, Alchemist, Ranger, and Rogue. We have zero Arcane (or Occult/Primal) spellcasting, which is absolutely bad no matter what version of Pathfinder you play. With how limited the Alchemist is on utilizing alchemical items (any of us, really), and the other classes having nothing to heal themselves with, leaves us with a lot of problems in maintaining survivability. (Canonically, only me and the Alchemist survived that Part 1 Adventure; the other characters are simply being retconned back alive due to not properly understanding the rules at the time, but I'd rather not do that.) Legitimately, the only way I could maintain the health of these characters was if I had Cleric-level healing. Not having the healing power of the Cleric, this party will surely and easily die, and my spell choice outside of Heal will absolutely mean nothing because I have no chance (or desire for that matter) to cast any other spell from this list.

3. Not play a Gnome, and not worship Pharasma. While the latter was a key part of the character's impact on the playtest, the ideal that I cannot select something like Paladin dedication (the only way I can come close to matching the Cleric's healing power) because of my deity choice kills the character's viability entirely (since being tied to the deity was all the character really had to offer the party). Even if I wanted to have some sort of combat capability, being a Gnome with 8 Strength absolutely kills that too. Welcome to utilizing Hand Crossbows for D6 damage, the pinnacle of my damage dealing capabilities with weapons. Now, why am I using that instead of a scaling cantrip? Good question, because I now have no excuse to be wielding weapons.

I wish I could keep going with this character, but the rules do not permit me to proceed the way I'd want to, so I'm not sure it's worth it.


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Our divine sorc (although demonic) has actually gained tremendous gains from vicious concentration.

Changing the xd8+5 to xd8+11 at level 8-10 is actually quite good.

I expect similar results from the DR concentrating feat as well (DR 6 is pretty good)

Effortless conc later on even synergises with the above pretty greatly.

Grabbing Circle of protection at 6 is also good.

So, while more limited than a damaging build, I personally can easily see ~4-5 feats as worthwhile.


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Except you can't concentrate on a spell more than once, and each spell with concentration takes 2 actions to cast, meaning the +6 damage gain is impossible (except for Hero Point shenanigans, but that's an outlier), and having 2+ spells for concentration really hurts whatever else you can do. Sitting duck, anyone?

Effortless Concentration is the only reason this stuff works (but barely), and I don't get access to it, meaning it's worthless to bring up as an argument as to why those other feats are helpful.

It also only works on spells, which are very limited. Am I now back to the 15 minute adventuring day because I have to burn a minimum of 50% of my spells every fight just to contribute in this manner?

I'd be better off just turning this character into a Battle Cleric than jump through these ridiculous (and impossible) hoops to contribute to my party.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Except you can't concentrate on a spell more than once, and each spell with concentration takes 2 actions to cast, meaning the +6 damage gain is impossible (except for Hero Point shenanigans, but that's an outlier), and having 2+ spells for concentration really hurts whatever else you can do. Sitting duck, anyone?

Effortless Concentration is the only reason this stuff works (but barely), and I don't get access to it, meaning it's worthless to bring up as an argument as to why those other feats are helpful.

It also only works on spells, which are very limited. Am I now back to the 15 minute adventuring day because I have to burn a minimum of 50% of my spells every fight just to contribute in this manner?

I'd be better off just turning this character into a Battle Cleric than jump through these ridiculous (and impossible) hoops to contribute to my party.

What?

Ofc you can concentrate on a spell a lot more than once.

In fact, once PER ROUND is the limit for summoning and summoning only. (because it says so).

There is even exact language of what to do when you concentrate more than once per round in a spell in vicious concentration. (you can concentrate 3 times with 3 actions in one round for 3 attacks, but will get the +6 damage only once per round)

Edit :
Also, both vicious and DR conc bonuses build over the rounds, they don't "reset" somehow.

Quote:

If you Concentrate on the Spell a second

time, double this additional damage, and if you Concentrate on the
Spell a third time, triple this additional damage. This extra damage
ends when the spell ends

A) "when you concentrate" . NOT "when you concentrate this round."

B) When the SPELL ends, not when the round ends.

Edit2:

Those kind of spells actually extend the adventuring day. Instead of being burst damage, being able to do (as an example) 2d8+10 at level 8 with an action, every round, for the whole combat, with 1 level 4 spell, means that you can fall back to that and not spam spells.


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I'm a bit confused about your complaint. Are you saying you want to be able to heal just as much as the cleric? Because if so, no you can't do that and there is no reason you should be able to do that better. Clerics are the best healer hands down. However the flexibility in terms of healing, condition removal, buffs etc is what makes a sorcerer worth it, from a mechanical perspective.

Bless + Resilient Concentration seems to be a very nice addition to the team.

I would however multiclass or take some general feats to get some better AC unless you don't want to be wearing armor, but I see no reason your AC should be much lower than the rest of your team, and with flying capabilities and spell casting you shouldn't get hit all that often.


shroudb wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Except you can't concentrate on a spell more than once, and each spell with concentration takes 2 actions to cast, meaning the +6 damage gain is impossible (except for Hero Point shenanigans, but that's an outlier), and having 2+ spells for concentration really hurts whatever else you can do. Sitting duck, anyone?

Effortless Concentration is the only reason this stuff works (but barely), and I don't get access to it, meaning it's worthless to bring up as an argument as to why those other feats are helpful.

It also only works on spells, which are very limited. Am I now back to the 15 minute adventuring day because I have to burn a minimum of 50% of my spells every fight just to contribute in this manner?

I'd be better off just turning this character into a Battle Cleric than jump through these ridiculous (and impossible) hoops to contribute to my party.

What?

Ofc you can concentrate on a spell a lot more than once.

In fact, once PER ROUND is the limit for summoning and summoning only. (because it says so).

There is even exact language of what to do when you concentrate more than once per round in a spell in vicious concentration. (you can concentrate 3 times with 3 actions in one round for 3 attacks, but will get the +6 damage only once per round)

Edit :
Also, both vicious and DR conc bonuses build over the rounds, they don't "reset" somehow.

Quote:

If you Concentrate on the Spell a second

time, double this additional damage, and if you Concentrate on the
Spell a third time, triple this additional damage. This extra damage
ends when the spell ends

A) "when you concentrate" . NOT "when you concentrate this round."

B) When the SPELL ends, not when the round ends.

Edit2:

Those kind of spells actually extend the adventuring day. Instead of being burst damage, being able to do (as an example) 2d8+10 at level 8 with an action, every round, for the whole combat, with 1 level 4 spell, means that...

So I can spend actions to boost other peoples' damage while I use spells, which only works on one attack in any given round. Not gonna lie, 6 damage per round (at best) is a very big waste of actions over the course, and I still have to burn actions to maintain it. While it's not as bad as I originally thought, it's still worse than multiclassing options and not what I originally wanted from my features. If I wanted to be a buff god, I'd be Bard with Sorcerer multiclassing and be outright better at it than with just this.

@ Nettah: My complaint is that I can't even make this character, our sole spellcaster and provider of healing, viable to at least have a fighting chance of survival in difficult encounters. On-hand healing is required, and I have to burn all of my slots to meet that demand. The avenues I want to take to make this character work in a way that all of my spells aren't Heal are impossible and even with certain retraining options, conflict against a lot of the flavor and ideals I put into it. It would be a completely different character. At which point, why not make it a completely different character?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Except you can't concentrate on a spell more than once, and each spell with concentration takes 2 actions to cast, meaning the +6 damage gain is impossible (except for Hero Point shenanigans, but that's an outlier), and having 2+ spells for concentration really hurts whatever else you can do. Sitting duck, anyone?

Effortless Concentration is the only reason this stuff works (but barely), and I don't get access to it, meaning it's worthless to bring up as an argument as to why those other feats are helpful.

It also only works on spells, which are very limited. Am I now back to the 15 minute adventuring day because I have to burn a minimum of 50% of my spells every fight just to contribute in this manner?

I'd be better off just turning this character into a Battle Cleric than jump through these ridiculous (and impossible) hoops to contribute to my party.

What?

Ofc you can concentrate on a spell a lot more than once.

In fact, once PER ROUND is the limit for summoning and summoning only. (because it says so).

There is even exact language of what to do when you concentrate more than once per round in a spell in vicious concentration. (you can concentrate 3 times with 3 actions in one round for 3 attacks, but will get the +6 damage only once per round)

Edit :
Also, both vicious and DR conc bonuses build over the rounds, they don't "reset" somehow.

Quote:

If you Concentrate on the Spell a second

time, double this additional damage, and if you Concentrate on the
Spell a third time, triple this additional damage. This extra damage
ends when the spell ends

A) "when you concentrate" . NOT "when you concentrate this round."

B) When the SPELL ends, not when the round ends.

Edit2:

Those kind of spells actually extend the adventuring day. Instead of being burst damage, being able to do (as an example) 2d8+10 at level 8 with an action, every round, for the whole combat, with 1

...

what are you even talking about?

what "other people's damage" are you talking about?

you misread the concentration rules and now you're going off a tangeant.

FACT is, that both concentration feats are excellent for divine sorcerer.

one adds quite a bit of surivability buff, the other adds a substantial amount of damage to one of your best attacking spells (one of the best attacking spells in the game actually)

you're not "wasting actions to boost other people damage" you're boosting your own damage.

seriously, read what the feat does.

a wizard would kill for a d8+10/d8+4 spell as an action that you can do up to 3 times/round for a full minute at 120ft range.

it's one of the best "ranged attacks" in the game and a single casting lasts for a full normal encounter.

resilient is also better than the brbarians DR and is basically at will.

so, choose if you want to be more defensive or more offensive, and pick the appropriate feat.

no, you won't heal as much as a cleric. no one is disputing that, so don't try to be a cleric, focus on your own strengths, which are better spell powers and amazingly better concentration feats.


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I do think it's hard to feel good about healing capabilities when you compare any class to cleric because I see channel energy as utterly broken, giving 6-7 extra max slot of heal is just wrong. (I think it could easily be just charisma bonus instead of 3+ charisma bonus, and it wouldn't really make cleric worse than the other classes)

But I disagree with the argument that you must spend all your slots of healing to be viable for the group. You would likely want to only spend your higher spell slots on healing in combat, and out of combat wands, potions or threat wounds is better than to waste your spell slots. You will heal 36,5 on average with your 4th level spell slots and 27,5 with your second highest. So if you are using all 3rd level and 4th level as healing that is 219,5 that is like 2-2,5 worth of character HP, you shouldn't be expecting to do that much healing in combat I'll say.

The strong aspect of the sorcerer is the flexibility; you are a worse healer than cleric, worse at buffing than bard, worse at damage than druid but you are free to do all three things depending on what is needed in the situation and therefore the best to remove curses, poisons etc since you don't need to worry about having prepared it. I do think spellcasters could use a bit of a buff currently and sorcerers might be among the weakest of the casters but still you can do some useful stuff.


Still pointless because now I'm a damage dealer and not a healer. Having a Ranger, Fighter, and Alchemist in the party should be more than enough damage, and we don't need help with that (our group half-TPK'd in Part 1 due to lack of healing).

If I'm not supposed to heal as a Sorcerer, then fine, it just means Divine Sorcerers are a very very crappy choice of Sorcerer to take since, if I wanted to be a damaging Sorcerer, I would've made completely different choices.


It strikes me that even a cleric can do more than just heal. If you really want to be a pure non-violent one-trick-pony medic who doesn't even buff or do utility stuff I can see your point, but I doubt you really want to do that.

So TBH you might as well multiclass. The over-limited build system in PF2 requires (and maybe deliberately expects?) that you multiclass in some way. To what will depend on how you see the character.

And yes, sorcerers are weak and limited, and nothing competes with clerics for healing.


It's not that I want only to heal, I want healing to be my main focus, with stuff to contribute with when everyone is healthy. All these damage spells and concentration shenanigans are not how I heal, and I already played a game where in-combat healing was largely irrelevant. Out of combat, I will have Battle Medic, Treat Wounds, and maybe Natural Medicine (which will be fairly weak, but there you go), but those have limits, and I can't rely on my teammates to heal, simply because I don't know if my teammates will be building to have some sort of healing with them as well. (Great if they do, but I don't know for sure.)


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's not that I want only to heal, I want healing to be my main focus, with stuff to contribute with when everyone is healthy. All these damage spells and concentration shenanigans are not how I heal, and I already played a game where in-combat healing was largely irrelevant. Out of combat, I will have Battle Medic, Treat Wounds, and maybe Natural Medicine (which will be fairly weak, but there you go), but those have limits, and I can't rely on my teammates to heal, simply because I don't know if my teammates will be building to have some sort of healing with them as well. (Great if they do, but I don't know for sure.)

and that's the crux of the problem.

if you don't enjoy the mechanics of a class (based around concentration "shenanigans" and etc) that has nothing to do with the viability of the class.

i'm not saying that divine sorcs are the best that exist in the game, but I'm saying that in their own way contribute quite a lot to a group.

they don't do it by pure healing, they do it with mitigration, with a bit extra temp hp per healing, with providing DR, and with providing some extra versatility and damage.

If that's not how YOU want to play, then by all means, switch character to something you enjoy more.

but don't say that this is the class fault, that's purely your own gamestyle not messing well with a class.


shroudb wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's not that I want only to heal, I want healing to be my main focus, with stuff to contribute with when everyone is healthy. All these damage spells and concentration shenanigans are not how I heal, and I already played a game where in-combat healing was largely irrelevant. Out of combat, I will have Battle Medic, Treat Wounds, and maybe Natural Medicine (which will be fairly weak, but there you go), but those have limits, and I can't rely on my teammates to heal, simply because I don't know if my teammates will be building to have some sort of healing with them as well. (Great if they do, but I don't know for sure.)

and that's the crux of the problem.

if you don't enjoy the mechanics of a class (based around concentration "shenanigans" and etc) that has nothing to do with the viability of the class.

i'm not saying that divine sorcs are the best that exist in the game, but I'm saying that in their own way contribute quite a lot to a group.

they don't do it by pure healing, they do it with mitigration, with a bit extra temp hp per healing, with providing DR, and with providing some extra versatility and damage.

If that's not how YOU want to play, then by all means, switch character to something you enjoy more.

but don't say that this is the class fault, that's purely your own gamestyle not messing well with a class.

Sure it does. I don't think a casual player would have come up with or foresaw your combination without some serious threading of the feat text, so I'd definitely call it a matter of shenanigans, because I seriously question whether you can actually utilize an effect like Spiritual Weapon or some other concentration effect multiple times over its duration. There's nothing that says you can, and I'm of the impression that spell effects usually only ever take place once per turn, at the start of your initiative (or end, if it is a detrimental effect like self-bleeding).

Temp HP at the cost of bleeding myself out easily, DR that is a trickling compared to the amount of sheer hit and damage output of monsters, and damaging capability just to further reinforce the PF1 playstyle, which is "in-combat healing is junk, just kill it faster and heal it out of combat," these are all things that are just outright lame and pointless as a Sorcerer playstyle. If I wanted to give HP or DR, I'd play a Cleric or even Paladin, and if I wanted to do solid damage, I'd either pick a whole other bloodline (Primal is a great compromise, actually, but I can't do that based on retraining rules), or I'd choose a whole other class that does more damage without relying on shenanigans that I'm absolutely certain the GM wouldn't fall for. Like the other 3 or 4 classes I'm playing with right now, in fact!

When I have to make the choice of "Do I heal with my spell slots or do I kill with my spell slots," the choice, based on my party makeup and lack of ability to go the route I want, will always be Heal, and that's that. Concentration shenanigans is not fun, nor seemingly permissible at my table. Even then, tying up my entire turn just sitting there buffing allies and making horrible use of my very crappy spell list and being easy prey is a very quick way to wind up with a dead character, and if I'm not doing my Concentration shenanigans, then I'm not contributing very much, if at all, flat out.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's not that I want only to heal, I want healing to be my main focus, with stuff to contribute with when everyone is healthy. All these damage spells and concentration shenanigans are not how I heal, and I already played a game where in-combat healing was largely irrelevant. Out of combat, I will have Battle Medic, Treat Wounds, and maybe Natural Medicine (which will be fairly weak, but there you go), but those have limits, and I can't rely on my teammates to heal, simply because I don't know if my teammates will be building to have some sort of healing with them as well. (Great if they do, but I don't know for sure.)

and that's the crux of the problem.

if you don't enjoy the mechanics of a class (based around concentration "shenanigans" and etc) that has nothing to do with the viability of the class.

i'm not saying that divine sorcs are the best that exist in the game, but I'm saying that in their own way contribute quite a lot to a group.

they don't do it by pure healing, they do it with mitigration, with a bit extra temp hp per healing, with providing DR, and with providing some extra versatility and damage.

If that's not how YOU want to play, then by all means, switch character to something you enjoy more.

but don't say that this is the class fault, that's purely your own gamestyle not messing well with a class.

Sure it does. I don't think a casual player would have come up with or foresaw your combination without some serious threading of the feat text, so I'd definitely call it a matter of shenanigans, because I seriously question whether you can actually utilize an effect like Spiritual Weapon or some other concentration effect multiple times over its duration. There's nothing that says you can, and I'm of the impression that spell effects usually only ever take place once per turn, at the start of your initiative (or end, if it is a detrimental effect like self-bleeding).

Temp HP at the cost of...

There's literally a "frequency" part in actions that are supposed to be once per round or etc.

And there are some other examples of concentrating more than once per round over the book.

I mean, some effects, like flaming sphere and summoning have to call out that you can only concentrate on them once.

Maybe it can be called directly somewhere, but I don't see (as an example) somewhere saying "oh, you can Step twice per round"


Yes, there is, but I'm not certain that the GM will let me concentrate on a spell multiple times, and there is nothing in the rules that says you can, meaning if I'm going to try and explain that to my GM, it will be an uphill battle.

I am curious as to what examples are mentioned in the book as to what I can or cannot concentrate on multiple times, as it would probably be a deciding factor in determining if this playstyle is even viable at my table. Not saying that I would want to, but if somebody else at the table was thinking of concentrating on a spell multiple times, it'd be nice to have the precedent set.


Well the concentrate on a spell action isn't limited to once per turn. So there is absolutely no rules I can find saying you can't concentrate on the same spells multiple times. There is however several spells that clarifies that the effect is only triggered once per turn; so multiple concentrations wouldn't matter. In terms of increasing the duration it also doesn't do anything; so except for spells like Spiritual Weapon it would serve no purpose. Spiritual Weapon suffers from MAP so it's not close to being broken to concentrate on it multiple times a turn.

But until the opposite is stated there is no reason to think that you can't concentrate on a spell multiple times a turn based on the rulebook. Just like it would be weird to think you couldn't perform any of the other basic actions multiple times a turn.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Yes, there is, but I'm not certain that the GM will let me concentrate on a spell multiple times, and there is nothing in the rules that says you can, meaning if I'm going to try and explain that to my GM, it will be an uphill battle.

I am curious as to what examples are mentioned in the book as to what I can or cannot concentrate on multiple times, as it would probably be a deciding factor in determining if this playstyle is even viable at my table. Not saying that I would want to, but if somebody else at the table was thinking of concentrating on a spell multiple times, it'd be nice to have the precedent set.

all actions can be used as long as you have actions unless specified elsewise.

if your GM allows you the "stride action" 3 times in a round, he has no reason to not allow "concentrate" action 3 times in a round.

The rules on how many action you can take are in the first part of the book. There it actually says that you can perform an action multiple times in a round, as long as you have actions left.

as for examples, the Vicious concentration feat that we were discussing is a nice one.
Divine aura is another one

Quote:

The first time you Concentrate on the Spell each round, the

radius grows 10 feet.

(meaning you can concentrate more than 1 time in the spell each round but radius only increase once/round)

flaming sphere also has the "once per round" language, and etc.

Basically, the very action stats that:
you need to concentrate at least once to extend the duration, and then the effects depend on the spell.

it doesn't limit you to using the effects once, twice, or even 4 times in a round with effeortless concentration. Hence why spells like summoning put the limit of "2 actions" and not "2 action per cocnntration" (because it would be silly to have 8 actions from your summons)


I empathize with your dilemma. If you do get to remake the character, I might have a suggestion that works for you.

I've been dabbling with the multiclass archtypes for the entire playtest and have discovered that sometimes what you pick as your primarly class is really what you intend to be your secondary class.

For instance, if you want to be an Angelic Sorerer/Healer, perhaps you want to take the Cleric Class, then archtype into your Sorcerer, spending every Class Feat to head that way. This way you'll get the Cleric Channels which go off at the highest level of Cleric. You'll blow all of your feats on filling out the Angelic Sorcerer.

You can even dump-stat Wisdom since it won't matter a lot to your healing.

That said, yep, usually PF2e Multiclassing sucks, but in this case you might actually manage to fit your conception into what is available.


Seems theorycraft was right - again. Angelic sorcerer reads just as bad as it seems to be in play.

---
Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Table 10-2 should be destroyed


I'm not quite sure I get the problem. Angelic Sorcerer with the Heal spell and maybe Divine Evolution does perfectly fine as a healer. You may not have as many high-level Heals per day but how many do you really need? The Mirrored Moon group I ran made it through just fine without even having a Cleric (The closest things were an Alchemist who handed out healing elixirs we hardly used and a Druid with Cleric MC who never prepared Heal, though he got a Staff of Healing later and used it a couple times in the final battle).

And I mean, especially with how Mirrored Moon is you should find you have plenty of healing in a day.

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