I recently got back into PF somewhat (Still haven't gotten to play or run anything but I'm working on it), and was reading Spheres of Might again because I was incredibly confused as to how the Spheres of Might Scholar would work with any sphere other than Alchemy's blasting in terms of doing something that is not totally support... Then I noticed the Martial Study knack
The scholar chooses a single combat sphere she possesses; she may use her class level in place of her base attack bonus when determining her bonus to hit, combat maneuver bonus, combat maneuver defense, ability DCs, and all other functions of the sphere normally determined by her base attack bonus when using talents or abilities granted by that sphere. The scholar may take this knack multiple times, choosing a different combat sphere each time. The scholar may not select the Equipment sphere with this knack.
I wanted to ask 2 things about this.
1: Is this really what it does? I'm so shocked because it seems too good to be true.2: what actually counts as "all other functions when using talents or abilities granted by that sphere".. I'l give some examples.
If I used Fencing would I only ever gain this bonus when dealing its precision damage?
If I used Dual wielding would it apply to every time I use my standard action two weapon fighting, or only when using special abilities?
Could a Berserker Scholar apply this to all of their Brutal Strikes?
Would Duelists apply this whenever they deal bleed, or only when they use special attacks?
Could a Guardian scholar apply this to targets of his/her Challenge, or use it against targets of their Patrol?
What would Lancers be able to use it for? impale attempts?
Would Open Hand (or any unarmed) practitioner be able to apply this to unarmed strikes, or only when using sphere specific actions?
would Scouts be able to apply it against those they scanned?
would Barroomers apply this to improvised weapon attacks?
Sorry if this question makes me seem like some kind of power gamer but I just feel like for the longest time Scholar seemed like a class that only had one or two potential builds (Full Support with alchemy Salves or Alchemy Blaster, which technically they already have their own at will blast with Flashbangs), so I'm just curious as to whether it's too good to be true.. and also that if I run something in the near future I'll know if someone's trying to take advantage of me by applying it to something that it shouldn't apply to.
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1) Yep, that's really what it does.
2) Whenever you're using a special attack action granted by the sphere, making an attack or combat maneuver granted by the sphere or one of its talents, or checking against another BAB-based ability while using the abilities granted by your sphere and its talents. If you aren't using any of the abilities granted by your sphere, the bonus doesn't apply. It's meant to be fairly broadly applicable within the specific sphere's area of influence, allowing e.g. a Scholar with the Sniper sphere to use her class level in place of her BAB when making Deadly Shots, determining the amount of bonus damage she gets, and the DC of any talents.
1) Yep, that's really what it does.
2) Whenever you're using a special attack action granted by the sphere, making an attack or combat maneuver granted by the sphere or one of its talents, or checking against another BAB-based ability while using the abilities granted by your sphere and its talents. If you aren't using any of the abilities granted by your sphere, the bonus doesn't apply. It's meant to be fairly broadly applicable within the specific sphere's area of influence, allowing e.g. a Scholar with the Sniper sphere to use her class level in place of her BAB when making Deadly Shots, determining the amount of bonus damage she gets, and the DC of any talents.
Thanks for the Clarification, I assumed that somewhat but just wondered because something didn't seem right about it. First like I said it seemed too good to exist, and second I needed to figure out just what counted as it, but I see that it would be with special attacks or specific abilities and not passive bonuses.
Though admittedly I realized I ought to tone down my excitement for crazy potential builds because a d6 hit die probably removes the possibility of things like breastplate and great sword berserking scholars (although I do honestly think that'd be cool like a sage type from a tribe that goes out into the world because she wants the knowledge that the more modernized more urban lands outside have to offer) or or Dual wielding scholars murdering everything in the name of Florence.
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Though admittedly I realized I ought to tone down my excitement for crazy potential builds because a d6 hit die probably removes the possibility of things like breastplate and great sword berserking scholars (although I do honestly think that'd be cool like a sage type from a tribe that goes out into the world because she wants the knowledge that the more modernized more urban lands outside have to offer) or or Dual wielding scholars murdering everything in the name of Florence.
One of the scholars in a Rise of the Drow game I was running was a feelkha (variant gamla race from Dreamscarred's Akashic Mysteries) with the Giant martial tradition. She'd trip people with her trunk getting some boosts from Martial Study (Open Hand) while flinging boulders and flash bangs. It was a pretty entertaining build. I also played a Martial Study (Shield) scholar with the Knightly Arts martial tradition who acted as a battlefield medic, protecting himself and his allies with his shield while binding wounds and using the Silver material imposition to ward off enemy spells and dispel various effects.
There's quite a few different things you can do with a scholar using the right martial tradition and class abilities.
Though admittedly I realized I ought to tone down my excitement for crazy potential builds because a d6 hit die probably removes the possibility of things like breastplate and great sword berserking scholars (although I do honestly think that'd be cool like a sage type from a tribe that goes out into the world because she wants the knowledge that the more modernized more urban lands outside have to offer) or or Dual wielding scholars murdering everything in the name of Florence.One of the scholars in a Rise of the Drow game I was running was a feelkha (variant gamla race from Dreamscarred's Akashic Mysteries) with the Giant martial tradition. She'd trip people with her trunk getting some boosts from Martial Study (Open Hand) while flinging boulders and flash bangs. It was a pretty entertaining build. I also played a Martial Study (Shield) scholar with the Knightly Arts martial tradition who acted as a battlefield medic, protecting himself and his allies with his shield while binding wounds and using the Silver material imposition to ward off enemy spells and dispel various effects.
There's quite a few different things you can do with a scholar using the right martial tradition and class abilities.
I don't really need to say anything more, but I am going to stop and say that THIS is why I like the Spheres systems. Instead of you shaping your character to fit the build, you can shape the build to fit the character, whilst still having a lot of cool options you can do.
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And hey, you can grab the Lightning Rod knack and the Howling Herbology imposition, giving you plenty of d6's for lightning and sonic(!) damage, neither of which is subject to Spell Resistance. ^^ You don't have to invest too much to be decent at offense as a Scholar - you're not going to be a pouncing Barbarian, true, but in most games a Scholar should find it easy to feel like they're contributing. I'd say they're actually better at getting 1d6/level damage than most blaster casters since they can do it all day long.
Spheres is nothing if not flexible. XD
Scholar is a definite contender for favorite out of all the classes I've written (though the competition is fierce; every one of the classes I wrote for Spheres of Might is one that I wrote excited at the possibility of getting to play it) and my very first playtest scholar was actually a "non-spellcasting wizard" build where she was focused on utility and area control/damage. At one point we did a full on castle raid where we swooped in on gliders, gave ourselves concealment with smoke bombs and flashbangs, and then had a knock-down, drag-out fight in the main hall trying to make our getaway. As the provider of the gliders, smoke bombs, and the lightning storm that covered our final escape, I felt pretty good about how things had gone.
Scholar is a definite contender for favorite out of all the classes I've written (though the competition is fierce; every one of the classes I wrote for Spheres of Might is one that I wrote excited at the possibility of getting to play it) and my very first playtest scholar was actually a "non-spellcasting wizard" build where she was focused on utility and area control/damage. At one point we did a full on castle raid where we swooped in on gliders, gave ourselves concealment with smoke bombs and flashbangs, and then had a knock-down, drag-out fight in the main hall trying to make our getaway. As the provider of the gliders, smoke bombs, and the lightning storm that covered our final escape, I felt pretty good about how things had gone.And hey, you can grab the Lightning Rod knack and the Howling Herbology imposition, giving you plenty of d6's for lightning and sonic(!) damage, neither of which is subject to Spell Resistance. ^^ You don't have to invest too much to be decent at offense as a Scholar - you're not going to be a pouncing Barbarian, true, but in most games a Scholar should find it easy to feel like they're contributing. I'd say they're actually better at getting 1d6/level damage than most blaster casters since they can do it all day long.
Spheres is nothing if not flexible. XD
Well it's wonderful to hear more about it. Which.. I guess if I could give a bit of a 'review/critique' whilst I have an actual SoP/SoM writer here. I'd just say this about classes
Blacksmith: YES. I ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY MY FIGHTERS AS METALWORKERS TOO.. though what is the point of thunderous strikes when you're not fighting constructs. (Iron chef is cool too)
Commander: I like my fighters to be in the thick of it, so I'd probably use Vanguard more than base, but still a cool idea. (already mentioned vanguard)
Conscript: The single most versatile class in the game I see, but goodness gracious they are so poor at the game's start.
Scholar: A game of red light green light. "Oh that looks so cool!" "Wait... A half Bab Martial Class? What can this do other than throwing alchemy potions around and maybe using war leader?" "Oh wait Martial Study is a thing? Sweet! and I can basically do the wizard's job through my impositions AND snipe some fools!" (Doctor is cool too for those wanting to go straight healer, and even the damage dealer can benefit from inoculations)
Sentinel: Please let a sword and shield build be good for once, please let a sword and shield build be good for once! (usually shield builds are just outdone because with Full Plate the extra AC from the shield is just redundant when you can just murder the tank's friends and then go for him, and going Medium Armor and shield for more mobility is redundant because in standard PF/D&D you want to full attack all the time.) (and all the archetypes are cool too)
Striker: Sweet, new unarmed class to beat people up with, and tension seems cool. (archetypes were kinda meh. a Gun striker.. though mutagens seem cool)
Technician: The single weirdest class I've seen for this game and I love it. (and Mech Pilots are the class that I have to believe in that believes in me)
Archetypes for cores are also cool because they have some real fluff to them instead of just "Oh here have a sphere version"
Also I want to ask about Natural Attack builds and spheres just because... It seems like it would make natural attack builds kinda useless to a greater extent then they already are to me (I mean by that you need a lot of natural attacks to outhit a guy with a sword so I don't get the point)
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Also I want to ask about Natural Attack builds and spheres just because... It seems like it would make natural attack builds kinda useless to a greater extent then they already are to me (I mean by that you need a lot of natural attacks to outhit a guy with a sword so I don't get the point)
Natural attacks are actually extremely powerful, largely due to the fact that many builds can acquire a significant amount of them and dish out a larger number of attacks than would otherwise be possible, frequently with much greater accuracy than standard iteratives. Add to that the facts that natural attacks don't always preclude you from making your normal attacks with a manufactured weapon, generally can't be disarmed or sundered, and frequently deal multiple damage types, and you're looking at natural attacks being much too powerful for us to have been interested in boosting them any further with Spheres of Might. If you only have one or two natural attacks, they'll still pair with SoM very well, but the 3+ natural attack builds really weren't in need of help or mechanics that would add additional riders on top of already-potent attack routines.
(Blacksmith) though what is the point of thunderous strikes when you're not fighting constructs?
Blacksmith was the first class I wrote for the system, and I knew I wanted the class to be really good at buffing and debuffing without giving up the ability to fight. That's why they can reforge equipment very quickly and effectively, as well as having options to apply excess damage from sunder attempts to the wearer of whatever's being sundered. That means that Thunderous Blows allows him to obliterate enemy gear while still dealing damage to the target and then reforge the broken loot after combat. By 3rd level when he can also "sunder" natural attacks and natural armor you've got a really effective debuffer who can simultaneously drop competitive damage. Thunderous Blows also works for ranged weapons if you want to play a crossbow or firearm Blacksmith who specializes in shredding opponent's gear and locking them down from a safe distance with Sniper talents.
(Scholar) "Wait... A half Bab Martial Class? What can this do other than throwing alchemy potions around and maybe using war leader?"
Any of the skill-based spheres (Alchemy, Athletics, Trap, Warleader, etc.) are going to favor the scholar to a great degree since they'll add both additional functionality and reinforce the scholar's strengths as a skill-monkey. Martial Study is actually typically a pretty late pick for me on Scholars, if I grab it at all, since they're naturally so strong as utility/control specialists. Though it can be super fun to make a Scholar with the Trick Arrows and Martial Study knacks along side the Sniper sphere so you can play Green Arrow/Hawkeye/Arsenal with flashbang arrows.
Commander: I like my fighters to be in the thick of it, so I'd probably use Vanguard more than base, but still a cool idea.
I had a lot of fun writing the Commander and finding a cool leadership niche that wasn't already well served by another product (I'd already written The Battle Lord, a front-line leader-type, for Amora Games and didn't want to retread the same ground) so I used the "lazy warlord" idea as kind of a starting premise for the basic structure. Even though the class does favor trading away action economy to other members of the group, my wife's actually playing an Onispawn tiefling commander with the Bushido Warrior martial tradition and she's pretty beastly, combining tactical buffs with Duelist-enhanced nodachi attacks.
Conscript: The single most versatile class in the game I see, but goodness gracious they are so poor at the game's start.
I think that's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to do. Between the best talent progression, customizable skill list, bonus feats and talents, and a martial tradition, the conscript really has a lot going on. I spent a lot of time while working on it refining the pacing of the class and focusing on both keeping it from becoming too front-loaded and making sure it had decent options across all levels of play. If you burn up your bonus feats on poaching abilities that don't kick in until 3rd level or higher you might have a light 1st level, but you should still have plenty of talents to do what you want. A good martial tradition for your concept, a complimentary sphere specialization, and your two starting talents should mean you're still about 5 talents in to whatever combat style ypu're building right at 1st level, which is more than any other class can assemble without drawbacks (which the conscript can also take to maintain that lead.)
I'll pass your thoughts on the other classes along to the rest of the team; Stack (Andrew Stoeckle) did the vast majority of the design work on the Armiger, Ehn Jolly wrote the Sentinel and Striker, and Adam Meyers wrote the Technician. Related plug, if you've been enjoying both Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might, Drop Dead Studios also has Champions of the Spheres as a gish book that combines both systems with new classes, feats, and archetypes. You need both SoP and SoM to use it though.
Many things I won't repeat and clog up the thread
I mean I do think that the classes overall are interesting, and I guess since you're now talking about sending your thoughts over I'll clarify a bit.
Armiger and Bounty Hunter: I only really spoke ill of the Bounty hunter just because all of its kit centers around the bounty hunter's tools in particular (and it doesn't help that the example picture wields a sword and yet you cannot customize swords), It's mostly just my opinions rather than super serious. though I'd make some comparisons to the Armorist in terms of the Overall design, which has a similar set of "Bound Equipment" which gets twice the enhancement bonus on his free weapons (Though granted he can't change them out, and his lesser equipment is right around the same power level as this)
Sentinel: I'd assume that Spheres in general probably makes more viable shield builds in general since...
1: You actually have use for more mobility in medium armor because this is based on standard action attacks instead of full action ones, making medium armor + shield more sensible.
2: Between a whole sphere for shields, talents in the equipment sphere for them, and the overall changes, shields have more use than any standard martial could.
I just thought mention it because these were basically my first reactions to these classes and I'm hoping that shields are good finally (Also worth noting that.. I'm assuming challenges somewhat aggro opponents towards you so that could eliminate the "We kill everything else first" issue, or you can at least keep them away from your heroes better now.
Striker: The archetypes thing is just my opinion rather than anything that really needs fixing just because I wasn't really a fan of it. They all do seem like they would be very interesting for the player who wants to play that particular style. The Strong Style Grappler is the go to for those wanting to play a pro wrestler type, Scouts are good for those that really want a lot of mobility. Chaos shifters are perfect for the mutagenic Jeckyll and Hyde types to beat some fools around with. It's just dependent on the particulars and I just like the original.
Technician: No real critiques I can say on this one either because I find it fascinating, and can't wait to see what builds people come up with.
Natural Attacks: I guess that makes sense that they CAN get really powerful. I just could never really understand what the hubbub was about natural attacks because of the fact that it seems like someone wanting to be good at it would need so many of them, Natural attacks on races (like every example of "this race has 2 claw attacks" just end up not looking right because unless you decide from there to specialize in natural attacks and figure out how to get as many of them as you can it seems like you don't get much from them. Thanks for explaining it.
As Natural Attacks go, take a look at the Shifter, then the Alteration sphere, and get creative for a few minutes. Then picture each of those benefiting from an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Then consider a size-changing trait. o wo~ ....Natural attacks can be scary.
As Natural Attacks go, take a look at the Shifter, then the Alteration sphere, and get creative for a few minutes. Then picture each of those benefiting from an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Then consider a size-changing trait. o wo~ ....Natural attacks can be scary.
That was kinda my point I guess that you need to basically turn yourself into an eldritch abomination to get the benefits.
(on conscript)I think that's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to do. Between the best talent progression, customizable skill list, bonus feats and talents, and a martial tradition, the conscript really has a lot going on. I spent a lot of time while working on it refining the pacing of the class and focusing on both keeping it from becoming too front-loaded and making sure it had decent options across all levels of play. If you burn up your bonus feats on poaching abilities that don't kick in until 3rd level or higher you might have a light 1st level, but you should still have plenty of talents to do what you want. A good martial tradition for your concept, a complimentary sphere specialization, and your two starting talents should mean you're still about 5 talents in to whatever combat style ypu're building right at 1st level, which is more than any other class can assemble without drawbacks (which the conscript can also take to maintain that lead.)
I mean it's probably balanced out well, I was only really complaining about Equipment/Gold. Most classes that are as martially focused as him (except Monk but it's specifically designed not to have Armor or Weapons) can get
175 GP average which would mean Scale Mail (50), a Greatsword (50) and a Shortbow (35) whilst still having some gold left over. whilst the conscript..
60 MAX can get a greatsword and leather armor and not have a gold piece left to his name, whilst the 35 is spread a lot thinner.
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(on conscript)I think that's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to do. Between the best talent progression, customizable skill list, bonus feats and talents, and a martial tradition, the conscript really has a lot going on. I spent a lot of time while working on it refining the pacing of the class and focusing on both keeping it from becoming too front-loaded and making sure it had decent options across all levels of play. If you burn up your bonus feats on poaching abilities that don't kick in until 3rd level or higher you might have a light 1st level, but you should still have plenty of talents to do what you want. A good martial tradition for your concept, a complimentary sphere specialization, and your two starting talents should mean you're still about 5 talents in to whatever combat style ypu're building right at 1st level, which is more than any other class can assemble without drawbacks (which the conscript can also take to maintain that lead.)I mean it's probably balanced out well, I was only really complaining about Equipment/Gold. Most classes that are as martially focused as him (except Monk but it's specifically designed not to have Armor or Weapons) can get
175 GP average which would mean Scale Mail (50), a Greatsword (50) and a Shortbow (35) whilst still having some gold left over. whilst the conscript..
60 MAX can get a greatsword and leather armor and not have a gold piece left to his name, whilst the 35 is spread a lot thinner.
Ah, gotchya. If I had a time machine I'd probably change it so that starting wealth was split between the class and the martial tradition; that way if you take a martial tradition like Knightly Arts you'd get some extra coin in your pocket to buy the heavy armor and expensive weapons it's unlocking for you. The idea behind the conscript class was that you're basically thrust into whatever role you take by virtue of being conscripted or suddenly finding that your farm is directly between the two armies currently at war, so you scrounge what you can and learn whatever you can as the situation dictates. Unfortunately that does mean that at 1st level if you made a heavy armor conscript who wields exotic weapons you might be scrounging a bit in-game until you've found all the pieces you need, or use traits to boost your wealth or starting gear. Really, conscript probably should have gotten something like "15 gold pieces plus 1 melee weapon, 1 suit of armor, and 1 ranged weapon, chosen from those you are proficient with", but that doesn't really fit on a Starting Wealth line.
*Rubs chin* Yeah, layout can be pretty rough. For that, I might've shortened the fluff description a little, then added the note on gear to the wealth line (or maybe the proficiencies line, depending on how it actually looks). Not being able to start with the intended gear for a build can be a bit rough.
Also on what I guess is a conscript related question (AND a scholar based one too).
As much as it would kinda ruin the point of the scholar I kinda wish there was some equivalent for 3/4 bab scholars... Again I know that's stupid, I only really say it because of this.
The concept that comes to mind is the idea of someone who's a "Warrior and a scholar" (no pun intended) wearing a Breastplate and using a Sword and Board style to fight bad guys whilst also learning alchemical salves and such to act as battle medic.
Now as to why I feel like that would need a class...
1: Technician: I sense this would probably be the first thing that someone mentions when I say it, I only feel against it in any way because Even though I love the technician class on its own I do feel it's a bit too high tech for this idea (though granted again it did show the example character to just be a rogue using some traps and tech bonuses so I'm probably just inflexible)
2: Multiclassing: this could work, but I'd also just worry about a lot of the things that make scholars cool would be diluted by a lot, since.. a 10/10 conscript scholar mix would technically have 15 bab and more than 15 talents, but your material impositions and knacks would both be at half of their potency and so would a number of your conscript specializations
Granted maybe I'm just picky and still need to adjust to the idea that you can refluff things to whatever you want them to be.